Clan Battles survey....

[Yedwy]

54 minutes ago, AkiraKurai said:

there isnt a single cruiser with a 358mm+ caliber.

Alas - Siegfried in T9 and Sevastopol in t10

[AkiraKurai]

4 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Alas - Siegfried in T9 and Sevastopol in t10

Forgot about those 2, though I will say that they do not do enough DPM to be competitve, their AP and HE DPM is worse than some ships 2 tiers below them. A Shiratsuyu has more HE DPM than a Sevastopol, it's even worse for Siefried.

[Verytis]

16 hours ago, AkiraKurai said:

Relaxing it to 2-3 and everyone will slot 3 BBs, why take 2 extra CAs that are usually stalins when you can slot something like a montana or vermont

DD Wolfpacks do not work unless they're french, it's way too easy to kill one of them if they don't have french speed boost, the acceleration and deceleration is just too important, and if you look at bans ever since a certain Hurricane clan abused it in NA, you'll see weegee has said never again, and thus the meta goes back to screening DDs.

YY with TRB doesn't change anything as there are better things to slot in there, it wasn't effective at all against CAs without hydro as just knowing the direction of the YY was enough to dodge torps for the most part or send a screening DD out to get it since its gun dpm is laughable.

1. there are so many BBs that also blend into the role CAs except for Radar, ever since Vermont, all the TT BBs have recieved DFAA for some unholy reason and then there's the problem with hydro also spawning outside of the KMS BB line (looking at you incomp and karl). If they don't have a cruiser gimmick, guess what they have instead, cruiser dispersion (see recent IJN BB split).
2. How does this alleviate some pressure, you're replacing CAs with BBs, arguable worse
3. Reduce which restriction?

The literal point of my argument is that 30mm overmatch is no longer a major issue like it once was. And that it is ok, possibly even a good idea, to allow more BBs into CB.

Regarding wolfpacks, I simply referenced as a potential counter because you're using 30mm overmatch as reason to block BBs. The fact it is there, but not allowed, doesn't mean its not a potential counter.

And even if YY with TRB doesn't work against CAs, I should mention that BBs are bigger, have even worse maneuverability and lack access to RPF. If you have to send a DD to screen against it, then you're dedicating an entire ship to neutralise it. And if it gets countered by a 3rd DD then you might be in trouble.

1. I don't know why you brought DFAA into here, since its only for against CVs. And Incomp is simply fragile for a BB, the hull is almost that of a large CA. Karl is not even T10, and it lacks overmatch against CAs. IJN BB split also has 25mm bow/stern so despite countering CAs it'll get smashed through the front if it has to trade with BBs.
2. Super light cruisers ironically fare better against BBs than all the overmatching CAs. Explained further on.
3. There are restrictions in last CB that'd possibly not been required if we simply had more BBs. That'd require me to go through them one by one tho.

16 hours ago, AkiraKurai said:

Meta would change a lot, suddently cruisers such as Henri would probably come back from the dead (probably not due to the heavy nerf it recieved and was only reverted in RU). Worchester and 25mm bow and aft plated cruisers are fielded now beucase there isnt a single cruiser with a 358mm+ caliber.

Radar and hydro would be so proliferate that the only viable DDs would be ones that are capable of open watering, role may be relagated to leg mod kleber and probably smalland would be unbanned but that doesn't change anything since there are so many cruiser and without the threat of 25mm overmatch, they can be even more aggressive.

I have no idea why you'd pick Henri, when being a long range farmer means its one of the least worried about overmatch.

Also, almost every cruiser has 25mm bow/stern. Some have icebreaker sections to reduce the vulnerable areas. Others like DM have 27mm which are still vulnerable to overmatch.

And there have been ones that literally seen play last season, including Marseille and San Martin. They both been restricted at some point too.

 

17 hours ago, Kynami said:

Depends on the tier that would be played. But if it was T10 you would probably just see something like Castilla being slotted for that long range fire support. And a few more lighthouse builds since over-match within a match would take a hit. You still wouldn't see too many very light cruisers around simply because the super heavy cruisers are just as capable of flattening them as an actual BB, or honestly better since less chance of over-pens.

Thank you for reading my post. The reason super light cruisers fare much better against BBs is because of several factors:

• BBs have worse concealment that makes it much easier to engage from longer distances, where evasive movements are more practical. Also you see them coming, as opposed to a Marseille warping out at you from 11.6km at 40+ kts.
• BBs have much larger hulls and superstructure. Meaning its much easier to farm with small calibre guns. Fires also don't care for bigger hp pools.
• BBs have worse shell arming thresholds and accuracy, so they overpen more frequently and are forgiving of minor errors.
• BBs don't have improved penetration angles, for now at least.
• BBs don't contribute to hydro/radar spam. So CLs can sneak around and torp them more easily.

The difference is literally day and night. BBs aren't the thing killing off super light cruisers, it is the CAs that are doing it. That, and Malta.

[AkiraKurai]

5 hours ago, Verytis said:

30mm overmatch is no longer a major issue like it once was. And that it is ok, possibly even a good idea, to allow more BBs into CB.

It is, it invalidates any cruiser thats covered in 30mm (DM, Zao) to be placed in the standard cruiser category and places them in the same category of vulnerability as your definition of "super lights", said cruisers also don't have the same manuverability as "super lights".

5 hours ago, Verytis said:

Regarding wolfpacks, I simply referenced as a potential counter because you're using 30mm overmatch as reason to block BBs. The fact it is there, but not allowed, doesn't mean its not a potential counter.

DD wolfpack doesn't exist in any competitive sense unless its french DDs, and they where banned rightfully so in a 7v7 format since they are a litteral gun in a rock paper scissors dynamic weegee oh so wishfully want. Again, any other DD is too slow to manuver efficiently enough or doesn't have the same amount of DPM said french DDs can output.

6 hours ago, Verytis said:

And even if YY with TRB doesn't work against CAs, I should mention that BBs are bigger, have even worse maneuverability and lack access to RPF. If you have to send a DD to screen against it, then you're dedicating an entire ship to neutralise it. And if it gets countered by a 3rd DD then you might be in trouble.

If you have a DD screen against it, you've negated the whole identity of YY which was to throw DW torps, it doesn't have the ability to fight back due to its low DPM, it's a net positive as now you can worry about other things than the YY without giving up map control.

If there's 2 DDs on that side, you're obviously against a rush flank and should start kiting since rarely anyone brings 3DDs into CB, the other side is completly vulnerable which again, negates the YY as now its chasing kiting targets.

Even then, let's entertain the fact that they have 3DDs, you now have a CA or BB over a DD now assuming you also have the BB limit cap undone. if the YY is on the kit side, let's assume we have 3 BB 2 CA 2DD split with 2BB 1 CA 1DD and 1 BB 1 CA 1DD, reposition your radar hydro CA infront of the BB and start kiting with the DD activly trying to run down the YY since its a YY. YY on the major flank wont be able to do too much since theres 2 BBs on that flank which can either keep CAs from push or both sides have 2 BBs, in that case it literally becomes a randoms long range brawl where the DDs are in the middle along with the cruiser.

6 hours ago, Verytis said:

I don't know why you brought DFAA into here, since its only for against CVs. And Incomp is simply fragile for a BB, the hull is almost that of a large CA. Karl is not even T10, and it lacks overmatch against CAs. IJN BB split also has 25mm bow/stern so despite countering CAs it'll get smashed through the front if it has to trade with BBs.

1. to highlight how BBs are now creeping into the CA role, we also have had that recent VMF BB borodino with 12 km improved chapy radar
2. that 25mm bow didn't stop st vincent did it?

6 hours ago, Verytis said:

I have no idea why you'd pick Henri, when being a long range farmer means its one of the least worried about overmatch.

Also, almost every cruiser has 25mm bow/stern. Some have icebreaker sections to reduce the vulnerable areas. Others like DM have 27mm which are still vulnerable to overmatch.

And there have been ones that literally seen play last season, including Marseille and San Martin. They both been restricted at some point too.

Henri is litterally covered in 30mm.

The bow and stern isn't of concern, its the center and deck armor.

Marseille was restricted because it was literally henri but better, larger caliber guns, better prop and turn, and bullshit russian deck armor for the trade of some dpm and speed

San Martin was restricted due to having 5 super heals with better ratios than Minotaur and wouldn't blow up as easily as minotaur on top of that, it was extremly easy to abuse with its item gimmick as well.

6 hours ago, Verytis said:

Thank you for reading my post. The reason super light cruisers fare much better against BBs is because of several factors:

• BBs have worse concealment that makes it much easier to engage from longer distances, where evasive movements are more practical. Also you see them coming, as opposed to a Marseille warping out at you from 11.6km at 40+ kts.
• BBs have much larger hulls and superstructure. Meaning its much easier to farm with small calibre guns. Fires also don't care for bigger hp pools.
• BBs have worse shell arming thresholds and accuracy, so they overpen more frequently and are forgiving of minor errors.
• BBs don't have improved penetration angles, for now at least.
• BBs don't contribute to hydro/radar spam. So CLs can sneak around and torp them more easily.

1. Concealment doesn't matter much when it comes to BBs, I fail to see how this is a decent argument when you'll be lit by a DD who plays it smart
2. I don't understand this argument, shooting a BB with HE has the same effect for all ships, look at goliath.
3. You won't find yourself engaging at that range where you'll have more overpens vs pens if we where to use your first point.
4. I fail to see what this changes, but technically the Illinoise gets improved pen angles, we can also say Italy gets extreme improved pen angles from SAP, ever seen SAP against a broadside or angled "super light", a lot of black ribbons appear if they're close enough to shoot their casemate instead of arcing into their upper plate
5. German BBs have hydro, incomp has hydro, probably down the line we'll get some kind of small caliber line with hydro as well, sure it would lessen hydro and radar spam but you'll still be spotted by DDs with no way to deal with said DD unless your radar is off cd and are a mino or san martin

[Verytis]

18 hours ago, AkiraKurai said:

It is, it invalidates any cruiser thats covered in 30mm (DM, Zao) to be placed in the standard cruiser category and places them in the same category of vulnerability as your definition of "super lights", said cruisers also don't have the same manuverability as "super lights".

There's the old long range farming, or arcing over islands options, if somewhat situational.

A more consistent option would be smoke tactics. You could argue about trying to snipe them through smoke I guess.

Super lights will still have to contend with large cruisers overmatching it, so it has to hard to not let the BBs lose their trades or they're next.

 

I agree it does lower their impact, and I don't mind compromising and restricting 30mm overmatch. I just think we should experiment with relaxing the 1 BB limit.

But what I think really kills them is the fact there are new CAs with larger guns, better armour and also concealment. I'd unironically want to see more of those old cruisers back in the game, because they don't get guns to overmatch super lights for seemingly no reason.

18 hours ago, AkiraKurai said:

• to highlight how BBs are now creeping into the CA role, we also have had that recent VMF BB borodino with 12 km improved chapy radar
• that 25mm bow didn't stop st vincent did it?

Unfortunately this is one of those problems with WG's powercreeping. Both of them probably deserve a nerf in some form or otherwise will require restrictions be kept.

But still, they should be weaker if we increased number of BBs.

18 hours ago, AkiraKurai said:

Henri is litterally covered in 30mm.

The bow and stern isn't of concern, its the center and deck armor.

Marseille was restricted because it was literally henri but better, larger caliber guns, better prop and turn, and bullshit russian deck armor for the trade of some dpm and speed

San Martin was restricted due to having 5 super heals with better ratios than Minotaur and wouldn't blow up as easily as minotaur on top of that, it was extremly easy to abuse with its item gimmick as well.

I picked at Henri because a long range farmer fights at distances where they can juke shells.

Marseille is mostly powercreep, although one that BBs can partially address.

San Martin is still a CL. If you had BBs punching it, it'll be forced back much faster because it is suddenly a Minotaur without the maneuverability gimmicks. It is ironic because the ship mostly exists for tanking and area denial in CB but then is restricted for being good at it.

 

18 hours ago, AkiraKurai said:

• Concealment doesn't matter much when it comes to BBs, I fail to see how this is a decent argument when you'll be lit by a DD who plays it smart
• I don't understand this argument, shooting a BB with HE has the same effect for all ships, look at goliath.
• You won't find yourself engaging at that range where you'll have more overpens vs pens if we where to use your first point.
• I fail to see what this changes, but technically the Illinoise gets improved pen angles, we can also say Italy gets extreme improved pen angles from SAP, ever seen SAP against a broadside or angled "super light", a lot of black ribbons appear if they're close enough to shoot their casemate instead of arcing into their upper plate
• German BBs have hydro, incomp has hydro, probably down the line we'll get some kind of small caliber line with hydro as well, sure it would lessen hydro and radar spam but you'll still be spotted by DDs with no way to deal with said DD unless your radar is off cd and are a mino or san martin

1. Concealment still matters to some degree. If your DD is needed elsewhere, crippled, or being zoned, a stealthy BB can possibly disengage, while the average BB cannot. And if we're talking about replacing a CA with a BB, the difference is even bigger. In extreme cases like secondary Hannover, you don't even need a DD to spot for you.
2. Massive difference. Because that larger superstructure eats low calibre HE. Also the lower maneuverability makes it harder to disrupt you floaty shells.
3. I forgot Illinois because it is T9 and lacks overmatch. As for SAP, only Lauria can citadel with SAP atm. Against that you hard angle and take any pens on your stern/bow shots instead. Still hurts but somewhat manageable. Lauria's concealment is annoying tho.
4. German BBs have tradeoffs involved such as accuracy, or survivability in case of Schliffen. Incomp hydro is only 3km. And a DD will also want to be careful if you're around. The threat goes both ways. But point taken, and I suspect WG might follow through with you said, eventually.