Asym Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 51 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said: Oh yes, it can. One can take the liberty to adhere to a TOS and therefore to waive its rights, while and when parttaking in, lets say, a forum (community).For example is a store an owned place or a public space? It is obviously the former, therefore the owner can impose his own rules of conduct. I don't disagree legally: they can..........at a cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMS_Kilinowski Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 4 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said: I cannot say if there are WG staff here, but it's not like the official forums provided much of a two way communication either. This forum is nonetheless intended for the WoWS community, so I can interpret that broadly meaning that it is indeed open for players and WG staff as well, should they want to keep in touch with the people who actually use their product, meaning play their game. Welcome aboard! The reason I'm, saying this is, I never felt that WG should have hosted the forum anyway. Not just because it affected the whining, but mostly because I feel the community should have some privacy. WG is talking about their side of the business and usual all we heard was decision being irreversibly made. I feel Wargaming should never have been made aware of certain things like operations yielding good XP. In so many cases that communication went against our interests. If something was deemed a good deal, that deal was made worse in the future. If a game mode was rewarding, the rewards got nerfed. So our honestly hasn't helped us much and having WG listen in, was not necessarily in our best interest. Just WG could close the door if they didn't want us to listen in. I feel it's time that we have our confinde space as well. 3 hours ago, Andrewbassg said: Mostly I agree, tho I do disagree with the last part. A business can and should ask for the price he thinks is right and if people buy it.....its up to them. But predatory tactics certainly won't make me happy, in terms of respect. And devaluing and diluting the game and its assets....that's the main problem for me. along with diminishing the fun factor. That is what I am talking about. There is imo a difference between say WG and a car manufacturer. I don't expect the manufacturer to have a lot of exchange with their drivers and a community. It's only natural, they do what they want. But if somebody plays that community card, that they are gamers like us and that we all are a family of people enjoying the same thing, I expect a less capitalist approach. As I had written back in the old forum years ago, the players of this game are kids, students, people on a limited income or living in a less wealthy economy. If you respect those customers as being part of the same gamer-community, you should charge fair and respectful prices. And if you did that right, the community will feel connected to you and even back you up in hard times like the war in Ukraine. I have seen people getting loads of money, just by not asking loads of money. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral_Karasu Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 15 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said: The reason I'm, saying this is, I never felt that WG should have hosted the forum anyway. Not just because it affected the whining, but mostly because I feel the community should have some privacy. WG is talking about their side of the business and usual all we heard was decision being irreversibly made. I feel Wargaming should never have been made aware of certain things like operations yielding good XP. In so many cases that communication went against our interests. If something was deemed a good deal, that deal was made worse in the future. If a game mode was rewarding, the rewards got nerfed. So our honestly hasn't helped us much and having WG listen in, was not necessarily in our best interest. Just WG could close the door if they didn't want us to listen in. I feel it's time that we have our confinde space as well. Well, I agree that having a non-official forum allows us more of an independent stance in relation to Wargaming which, by itself, is a good thing. I'm not sure about the communication being against our interests. First, WG has absolute full access to all game related data, so they had up to date figures on how much people were getting playing each of the modes they offered. I would maybe expect them to use that data to implement changes. I might not agree that such changes were a good thing, same as you, but if we theorize that they made such decisions based on the direct feedback they were getting from us on the old WoWS forums... that would just make it pure malice and spite, at least that's how I would see it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) People angry over "predatory" practices just lack self control with their spending. You spend real hard earned money on a non fungible item. You literally own nothing when you spend money on any computer game. WG could disappear tomorrow and you'd have absolutely no recourse and nothing to show for the money you spent. I guess I'm old. If I have $50 extra to spend I'm getting some ammo and not some non fungible digital asset that isn't even really mine. No one forces you to buy the crap they sell. The thing is, tons of people spend thousands of dollars on literally nothing, so why wouldn't WG keep exploiting this? These "rare" ships aren't rare to WG. They could literally give everyone a Kamikaze or Belfast and it wouldn't really cost them a dime. They say things are rare so people fork out big money to get the rare thing. Edited October 13, 2023 by Kalishnikat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral_Karasu Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Kalishnikat said: People angry over "predatory" practices just lack self control with their spending. You spend real hard earned money on a non fungible item. You literally own nothing when you spend money on any computer game. WG could disappear tomorrow and you'd have absolutely no recourse and nothing to show for the money you spent. Thats all on you. No one forces you to buy the crap they sell. The thing is, tons of people spend thousands of dollars on literally nothing, so why wouldn't WG keep exploiting this? These "rare" ships aren't rare to WG. They could literally give everyone a Kamikaze or Belfast and it wouldn't really cost them a dime. They say things are rare so people fork out big money to get the rare thing. An excellent read. Why though... Do you thing WG does not say anything like that on any of their communications, such as the their Premium shop website? I still think 'predatory' is a very good label for well.. predatory monetizing practices, because just like with real things of predatory nature, knowing that they exist will do nothing against them, per se, without adequate precautions taken. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majmac Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, Kalishnikat said: If I have $50 extra to spend I'm getting some ammo and not some non fungible digital asset that isn't even really mine. Isn't ammo non-fungible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SureBridge Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 1 minute ago, majmac said: Isn't ammo non-fungible? You could also argue that wheat is non-fungible once it's in your bread 😉 The point of non-fungible digital assets is to pretend that they are not a commodity when they actually are. If everyone agrees to the game, then it's suddenly valuable, in the same way that trading cards are. I'd probably go for Pizza rather than ammo, but I live in Canada! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Kalishnikat said: People angry over "predatory" practices just lack self control with their spending. Ad hominem. I have good self control over my spending. I'm angry over the predatory marketing strategies...because I have friends who don't have good control...and who suffer the consequences of getting duped by people like WG. I have children who I won't let near this game or any other game like it because I KNOW they don't yet have the defenses to prevent WG from creating a destructive relationship with them. If you think victim blaming is going to be very persuasive here, you are wrong. The old tricks that sufficed on the WG forum and are encouraged on WG Discord don't work here, my friend. To take this in a constructive direction...instead of just 'your wrong.'... It is fundamentally OK for people here to criticize WG business practices. There will never be a business that does it properly perfectly. WG being criticized is not a reflection of you or any of us. We do not HAVE TO defend them. We can accept that some people are hurt by the deficiencies of others (because we are all deficient) without trying to stifle conversation about those hurts. WG will be just fine even with some grumpy conversations around their business strategy. There is no threat coming from this forum...so there is no reason to try to insinuate that any and all criticism is in bad faith or shouldn't be allowed. WG isn't here. There is no reason to keep the area clean of negative thoughts for marketing reasons. Relax. Take a deep breath with me...as I try to remember myself what I'm saying in the paragraphs above. Say it with me, WG isn't perfect. The game isn't perfect. Sometimes its fun. Enjoy the fun. Edited October 13, 2023 by Daniel_Allan_Clark 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Type_93 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: Ad hominem. I have good self control over my spending. I'm angry over the predatory marketing strategies...because I have friends who don't have good control...and who suffer the consequences of getting duped by people like WG. I have children who I won't let near this game or any other game like it because I KNOW they don't yet have the defenses to prevent WG from creating a destructive relationship with them. If you think victim blaming is going to be very persuasive here, you are wrong. The old tricks that sufficed on the WG forum and are encouraged on WG Discord don't work here, my friend. You just described every company who sells anything anywhere on the globe. I get it that you guys that think WG is the big bad wolf want to them in as bad a light as you can, but WG isn’t anywhere near as bad as you guys want them to be. I understand you love the game and want WG to change to fit YOUR version of how you think they should operate, but they are doing fine by the vast majority of players. The players here and on discord or Reddit (yuck) who cry and moan about WG being some big evil entity bent on screwing every player over are the minority. A very vocal minority, but a minority none the less. You just think you have lots of players on your side because the anti WG crowd is all over these platforms. Most players don’t care one way or the other and just enjoy shooty pew pew boats. 3 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Ohh WG is far from perfect. I think they are a disreputable company and have been for a long time. That being said, getting angry when a disreputable company acts in a disreputable manner seems silly. I guess it's just me, but I've never been overly tempted to spend my hard earned real money on digital assets that I don't even really own. I can't sell them for real money, I can't trade them with other people..they don't belong to me, they belong to WG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Type_93 said: I get it that you guys that think WG is the big bad wolf want to them in as bad a light as you can Ad hominem. Why are you assuming this is in bad faith? 2 minutes ago, Type_93 said: You just think you have lots of players on your side because the anti WG crowd is all over these platforms. Nope. I do not require agreement from the majority to make my criticism legitimate. ------------------- What is the problem with hearing complaints about a game you don't own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostbow Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 7 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said: One of the rarest ships in the game. Very infrequently for sale before then, and I don't recall seeing it in the Premium Shop since. And that was not the issue at all. No matter how one sugarcoats the debacle (like what you are doing here), the truth of the matter was that Wargaming did something that Maka-robbed the playerbase of the advertised chances of getting the ships they were gambling on. 7 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said: The playerbase was enraged because they were fantasizing about pulling Belfast or Kamikaze or Musashi etc. Any old premium ship wasn't good enough for them. Wargaming advertised the chances of getting a ship. What actually happened was that the chances were rigged. You absolutely have no right to blame any victim, especially when Wargaming, after an increasing amount of undeniable evidence of rigging was shown to them, offered refunds 7 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said: The response I had expected from the playerbase was more along the lines of "Holy cr*p, this thing's as rare as rocking horse droppings and everyone's getting one in their stocking!" You are not the playerbase, and this is not your kingdom. You are free to love your ships and the ships you get from your containers. At least give other players that respect when they voice out their frustration, and do not shove your narrative to anyone. Customers were duped by Wargaming, plain and simple. 2 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostbow Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 6 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said: Unfortunately, the only one who's talking about it is Mouse and everyone else who's fully privy to the conversation is under NDA. Oh, you conveniently omitted the fact that Wargaming was profusely apologizing for the betrayal of trust they did to Mouse and Chobittsu. 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Type_93 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: Ad hominem. Why are you assuming this is in bad faith? All your post in this thread point directly at that. 36 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: I do not require agreement from the majority to make my criticism legitimate. Just because you individually don’t require it, doesn’t mean you don’t embrace it. Every topic that has something to do with WG, you get your pitchfork and torches out with the rest of your lije minded individuals. 36 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: What is the problem with hearing complaints about a game you don't own? Nothing wrong with complaining, but it sure looks like you jump at every chance to complain about them. It’d be a breath of fresh wind if you (and by you I’m really not trying to single you out, just lumping you in with a bunch here who think like you) put yourself in a devs shoes. WG went thru a traumatic split over the Ukraine invasion. The company effectively split in half and moved their whole operation. Employees where either fired, quit or had to relocate. That’s a huge strain on everyone who works there. Then they are half staffed trying to keep their product from becoming stagnant and still trying to keep up with player demand. We have no idea what kind of strain WG employees are under and what stress they are having to deal with. But you guys just see them as money hungry and not caring what you think? You guys act like your problems with WG are the most important ones on their desk and it’s not. Grow up some and maybe consider that WG is just a company trying to do what they think is best for their interest even if it pisses a bunch of you basement dwellers off. Your morals or whatever ground you think your standing on are small potatoes compared to that. Edited October 13, 2023 by Type_93 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Type_93 said: Grow up some and maybe consider that WG is just a company trying to do what they think is best for their interest even if it pisses a bunch of you basement dwellers off. I was the first to raise this issue and express that we need to have appropriate expectations in a recent discussion on news articles for patch changes. I am well aware of the need for WG to recoup the losses they sustained doing the right thing...including losing lots of talented staff. But you ignore that and other examples of positive content to slander me...and add insults comparing me to a basement dweller. You also insist on claiming you know my motives and that they are not in good faith...no matter what I say. This is looking and feeling like a smear campaign and libel...and nothing at all to do with criticizing WG. Edited October 13, 2023 by Daniel_Allan_Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunkCostFallacy Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 7 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said: You can google for the WoWS Yukon 'episode' and what it was about but here's one source for you. Ah! I was familiar with the episode but I always tagged it from the other direction 'MouseGate' rather than 'YukonGate' lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Type_93 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: I was the first to raise this issue and express that we need to have appropriate expectations in a recent discussion on news articles for patch changes. I am well aware of the need for WG to recoup the losses they sustained doing the right thing...including losing lots of talented staff. But you ignore that and other examples to slander me...and add insults comparing me to a basement dweller. You also insist on claiming you know my motives and that they are not in good faith...no matter what I say. This is looking and feeling like a smear campaign and libel...and nothing at all to do with criticizing WG. Sorry but I don’t see anything that way. It’s always WG predatory this or WG doesn’t listen to the players blah blah blah. I know your motives. You want WG to make changes for the better as YOU see it. You’re right. I shouldn’t have said basement dweller. I don’t know you. But man you come off line someone who hadn’t anything better to do than complain. If that’s how you roll, so be it. This has everything to do with criticizing WG. I’ve been in WG shoes. I know what’s it’s like to lose everything to a situation I had absolutely no control over. Having a host of nay sayers pick apart and complain about everything you do when you are trying your best to keep faith with what’s really important just drives me angry. I get it just a game but It’s a game I love and want to be around for a long time. We are just two sides of the same coin and I dont think we will ever see eye to eye. I don’t think the game is n decline at all and I’ve been playing more now than ever. I’m just passionate about the things I enjoy. Sorry if I come off like an ass, but I am who I am. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Type_93 said: I know your motives. You do not. Stop presuming to speak for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Type_93 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: You do not. Stop presuming to speak for me. Ok, then what are they? I would love to know. Maybe I am way off the mark and will apologize if so, but right now your playing the middle lane. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfswetpaws Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 2 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said: The reason I'm, saying this is, I never felt that WG should have hosted the forum anyway. I hadn't thought about your perspective on the matter, before reading your post. I have to admit your notion is thought provoking. Granted, events have already happened and we're here and the old official forum is shutdown. That said, I see the concept of an official forum hosted by the company/game producer to have potential for good. 1. It's a way to communicate with players and attract new ones. 2. It's a place where players can share their experiences, how to get gud strategies, and inform game representatives of features, bugs, quirks and player ideas for improvements. 3. I think it's cost-effective advertising, when all is going well (or at least 'well enough'). Now, one could comfortably argue that WG/WOWs had perhaps reached some sort of "threshold" and decided to stop paying for a forum (which had built-up years worth of searchable information and opinions that didn't always flatter the game) because the corporation felt it no longer ideally suited their corporate purposes. Personally, I disagreed with shutting down the old forum. And I wasn't alone. But, I rather like DevStrike. And we wouldn't be here if the old forum hadn't been shut down. I'm very glad people banded together to pursue happiness in DevStrike fashion. "Cheers." 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 7 minutes ago, Type_93 said: Ok, then what are they? I would love to know. Maybe I am way off the mark and will apologize if so, but right now your playing the middle lane. I have sent you a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Type_93 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: I have sent you a PM. Noted. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrewbassg Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Asym said: they can..........at a cost. Exactly. 2 hours ago, Type_93 said: with a bunch here who think like you) put yourself in a devs shoe Oh....i feel directly targeted 🙂 So......that's exactly the pov from where I'm looking at things. And....its not about the devs, but the company. 2 hours ago, Type_93 said: WG went thru a traumatic split over the Ukraine invasion. The company effectively split in half and moved their whole operation. Employees where either fired, quit or had to relocate. That’s a huge strain on everyone who works there. Then they are half staffed trying to keep their product from becoming stagnant and still trying to keep up with player demand. We have no idea what kind of strain WG employees are under and what stress they are having to deal with. But you guys just see them as money hungry and not caring what you think? Undoubtedly. But tbh.......I fail to see the relevancy. Coz what we talking about predates what you are talking about. So.... 2 hours ago, Type_93 said: You guys act like your problems with WG are the most important ones on their desk Yes because we are the players of the game. 🙂 2 hours ago, Type_93 said: and it’s not Oh we know that. And that's problem no 1. 2 hours ago, Type_93 said: ...that WG is just a company trying to do what they think is best for their interest... We also know that. But foe whatevs reason Wedgie thinks that our interest and their interest is somehow..... contradictory. And that's idiocy. At best. And is entirely on them. Mind you, we talk about legit interests, NOT them being a lazy, disinterested bunch. Ya know...doin their job. Aka keep us happy. 🙂 2 hours ago, Type_93 said: Your morals or whatever ground you think your standing on are small potatoes compared to that. Not really coz actually it should be their interest too. 2 hours ago, Type_93 said: I know your motives. You want WG to make changes for the better as YOU see it. Hell yeh. And what's wrong with that if legitimate and reasonable arguments are presented in favour? With no mimimi whatsoever, just in form of facts and consequences.? As 1+1=2. Coz it is already proven, that they lack quite some basic understanding of their own game, both in terms of gameplay, consequences, as well as appeal. So actually ir would be a good idea to listen. 🙂 I'm a bit surprised Bear. Now,... if you would have made the argument that discussing Wedgie's shenanigans is...not helping, only divides and reduces the fun of being here.....that I would have understand and that's a legit point. Edited October 14, 2023 by Andrewbassg 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 3 hours ago, majmac said: Isn't ammo non-fungible? Ammo exists. I buy it I own it. I can sell it or trade it or use it as I see fit. A WOWS ship exists only as long as the game exists. I cannot sell it for real money, or trade it or store it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ensign Cthulhu Posted October 14, 2023 Author Share Posted October 14, 2023 3 hours ago, SureBridge said: I'd probably go for Pizza rather than ammo, but I live in Canada! The ammo is still a viable option. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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