Massive double standards?

[Asym]

19 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I think that 3D-printing a ship is unrealistic.
Damage Control (compared to repair) is more realistic, as I understand it.

You aren't wrong but consider this:  we play on "time compressed maps..."  The operative word is "play" nor serve.

Time compression is necessary to even play WW2 naval game because of the distances involved. 

Yes, a better designed game "might" consider degradation of capabilities and then, never allow full health after the start of battle.    IME, that isn't where a young adult, cooperative arcade shooter would show up. 

Personally, I like the "limiting of capabilities concepts" and they should be more evenly applied in this game.......my Grandson, would understand that BUT, he would rather have an instant "repair me" to allow him to fight on.....

Generational attitudes often necessitate different solutions.   Some game's, like FALLOUT 4 have "survival modes" of play that in this game would be, as examples only:  no torp reloads;  limited ammunition quantities; degrading damage constants; and, Radar that simply isn't what we have in the game now.....   Or, AA changes or ASW changes or........you get the point.  

Yes, it is unrealistic but, as arcade shooters go - standard fare.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Asym

[Wolfswetpaws]

13 hours ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

Case in point is the use of DCP to remove pings. The vast majority of players on ALL the WG forums¹ agreed that that mechanism sucks, as did the users on reddit, and other gaming forums. WG ignored that flood of feedback.

I'm in the minority, then.
I don't feel that adding a separate consumable or anti-ping capability is needed.

I figure that the existing damage control party is using a "Foxer" decoy of some sort.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxer
While they're busy doing so, they're not able to multi-task.
Which is why learning to manage when one deploys their DCP remains an important aspect of play.

And, for statistics compared with anecdotes, I suppose someone will create another poll?
Otherwise, I'd like to see the user-names of the "vast majority" actually listed and quantified.  Okay?  🙂 

[HogHammer]

6 minutes ago, Asym said:

my Grandson, would understand that BUT, he would rather have an instant "repair me" to allow him to fight on.....

This is a good life lesson you can teach him.  One day they will soon realize that desire is NOT "instant."

[Wolfswetpaws]

15 minutes ago, Asym said:

You aren't wrong but consider this:  we play on "time compressed maps..."  The operative word is "play" nor serve.

Time compression is necessary to even play WW2 naval game because of the distances involved. 

Yes, a better designed game "might" consider degradation of capabilities and then, never allow full health after the start of battle.    IME, that isn't where a young adult, cooperative arcade shooter would show up. 

Personally, I like the "limiting of capabilities concepts" and they should be more evenly applied in this game.......my Grandson, would understand that BUT, he would rather have an instant "repair me" to allow him to fight on.....

Generational attitudes often necessitate different solutions.   Some game's, like FALLOUT 4 have "survival modes" of play that in this game would be, as examples only:  no torp reloads;  limited ammunition quantities; degrading damage constants; and, Radar that simply isn't what we have in the game now.....   Or, AA changes or ASW changes or........you get the point.  

Yes, it is unrealistic but, as arcade shooters go - standard fare.

Repair Party compared with Healing Potion, eh?  I like the analogy.  🙂

I think the "survival mode" or "hardcore mode" notion has some merit, too.

The "how real..." compared with "how playable ..." should the developers make WG/WOWs, eh?  🙂 

[Asym]

29 minutes ago, HogHammer said:

This is a good life lesson you can teach him.  One day they will soon realize that desire is NOT "instant."

Yeah, good luck with that.  He's into History bigly...  (I had to use that...)  It's just attention span.  His generation's "cultural processors" are running at 11 gHz with quantum RAM.....  It's like watching "static sparks" on a wool sweater in the dead of winter.....  It's simply that technology is offering them more than they can adapt to and they are trying to adapt to everything all at once....  Adaptive friction is exceeding high in them and that make wave theory scream "danger Will Robinson, DANGER !"    Cultural Dissonance in adapting upper level technologies is strong in them....

Resistance is futile........this is the way.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Asym

[SunkCostFallacy]

26 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Which begs the question of why anyone thinks WG/WOWs is listening to this forum, now, eh?  🙂 
🙂 

I wasn't under the impression that anyone here thought WG were listening.

 

18 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

And, for statistics compared with anecdotes, I suppose someone will create another poll?
Otherwise, I'd like to see the user-names of the "vast majority" actually listed and quantified.  Okay?  🙂 

 

We really need better smileys ... because those tiny little ones don't work too well in conveying a meaning.

I'm sure that you don't seriously want me to go to the now-defunct forums (and wade through years of reddit posts) to dig out the names of everyone who expressed an opinion saying that DCP being used to clear pings was a bad mechanism?

You, who was more active on the WoWS NA server than I was, and who saw the same posts and complaints about that mechanism that I did.

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by SunkCostFallacy
Doing the forum when I should be in bed :D

[Asym]

16 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I'm in the minority, then.
I don't feel that adding a separate consumable or anti-ping capability is needed.

I figure that the existing damage control party is using a "Foxer" decoy of some sort.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxer
While they're busy doing so, they're not able to multi-task.
Which is why learning to manage when one deploys their DCP remains an important aspect of play.

And, for statistics compared with anecdotes, I suppose someone will create another poll?
Otherwise, I'd like to see the user-names of the "vast majority" actually listed and quantified.  Okay?  🙂 

We'll get to the point of "us and them..."  That Game or SIM distinctions.  Game dissonance is usually based on historical expectations.....  Age of the player is the where games have to make hard distinctions.   Would my Grandson play FALLOUT 4 on survival mode ?  No.   Would he or his posse of friends play WoWs as it is?  Only to frustrate you and me.......cause:  "Gramps !  It's so B_O_R_I_N_G.....even though I like the ships....."

Where is the middle decision has been made years ago (the cruiser line spilt no less) - we're aimed at the young adult level and the boomers, will stay or leave and that's OK....

Let's see where this goes !!!  It might be............[add a word of your choice...!]

[Wolfswetpaws]

4 minutes ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

25 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Which begs the question of why anyone thinks WG/WOWs is listening to this forum, now, eh?  🙂 
🙂 

I wasn't under the impression that anyone here thought WG were listening.

 

18 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

And, for statistics compared with anecdotes, I suppose someone will create another poll?
Otherwise, I'd like to see the user-names of the "vast majority" actually listed and quantified.  Okay?  🙂 

 

We really need better smileys ... because those tiny little ones don't work too well in conveying a meaning.

I'm sure that don't seriously want me to go to the now-defunct forums (and wade through years of reddit posts) to dig out the names of everyone who expressed an opinion saying that DCP being used to clear pings was a bad mechanism?

You, who was more active on the WoWS NA server than I was, and who saw the same posts and complaints about that mechanism that I did.

As I recall, this forum has at least one topic devoted to the "smileys" and other emojis.
I've got several that I saved as image files.
But, I seem to have exceeded my available upload space on this forum, so I can't keep inserting them into my posts as image files.
Of course, that's another topic.  🙂

As you say, we've both been around. 
And, no, I don't expect you to make the effort to chase-down 7 years worth of usernames.  You have a life, right?  🙂 
That "vast majority" notion remains a bit too vague for my personal taste, though.
I can only speak for myself.

And I believe that internal surveys and research by WG/WOWs supported their decision(s) to make various changes in this game. 
While other decisions might also be explained by speculating that some in higher management of WOWs had a "Wouldn't it be cool if ..." moment and instructed personnel to make it happen.
Again, speculation on my part.  🙂 

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

8 minutes ago, Asym said:

We'll get to the point of "us and them..."  That Game or SIM distinctions.  Game dissonance is usually based on historical expectations.....  Age of the player is the where games have to make hard distinctions.   Would my Grandson play FALLOUT 4 on survival mode ?  No.   Would he or his posse of friends play WoWs as it is?  Only to frustrate you and me.......cause:  "Gramps !  It's so B_O_R_I_N_G.....even though I like the ships....."

Where is the middle decision has been made years ago (the cruiser line spilt no less) - we're aimed at the young adult level and the boomers, will stay or leave and that's OK....

Let's see where this goes !!!  It might be............[add a word of your choice...!]

I read your words and thought of the difference between someone learning to play Chess, with games that are slow and have no time limit and allow for discussion of pieces, their moves, and the playing principles and strategies available.

And then there's "Speed Chess" wherein seasoned players use a clock and a time-limit.
Same game, but played on another level.

[Asym]

1 minute ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I read your words and thought of the difference between someone learning to play Chess, with games that are slow and have no time limit and allow for discussion of pieces, their moves, and the playing principles and strategies available.

And then there's "Speed Chess" wherein seasoned players use a clock and a time-limit.
Same game, but played on another level.

I would be 100% behind such a mode for PVE and PVP.   Although, in previous games on the same track this game is on, tried that and it completely failed.....  Completely DOA.   It seems, the competitive crew mates talk a lot about competition and skill........only when they are actually "farming noobs..."   Un-huh, talk was cheap.

And, those two game now have a "professional mode", last I visited one of them that is............a ghost town.

[Wolfswetpaws]

Just now, Asym said:

I would be 100% behind such a mode for PVE and PVP.   Although, in previous games on the same track this game is on, tried that and it completely failed.....  Completely DOA.   It seems, the competitive crew mates talk a lot about competition and skill........only when they are actually "farming noobs..."   Un-huh, talk was cheap.

And, those two game now have a "professional mode", last I visited one of them that is............a ghost town.

There have been some "torpedo soup" modes during past in-game events involving post-apocalyptic ships and commanders.
I've tried them, but they weren't my cup of tea.  That said, they were fast & exciting.

I am looking forward to the return of the Asymmetric Mode, in a couple of months or so.
The most recent one made for some interesting matches. 
I enjoyed blending my Co-op and random-battle skill sets & behaviors with a variety of my ships.

As for "skill", I still think the "One versus One" mode remains the best separator of wheat from chaff.  🙂 
Two players. 
No team-mates to *blame* or use as an excuse for the outcome.
Win, lose, or draw.

[Asym]

On 10/2/2023 at 1:30 PM, WES_HoundDog said:

CV's and subs are cancer and need to be removed!

Some DD's are cancer too and need to be removed. (Mostly recent ones)   

That said you can cordon off dd's and identify their threat direction and minimize damage until proper counter ships arrive.   With cv's and subs there is none of that.   The only thing you might get to help is a sub running anti sub.

I have been thinking about this post for a while now and for me, it's just about impossible when you mix Strategic weapons with Tactical weapons on small, time compressed maps....   It only works because it is "just a game..."

Removing them simply fails on all levels....  Adapting "counter systems" to the playing field is the answer that really, hasn't gone very well as I see it......   Just take AA as an example:  WW1 through to 1943 really was ineffective all over and Carriers and Subs would have "had their day"...  Radar, Sonar and AAA technologies simply made flying a plane of hunting any ship underwater a bit "problematic...." at best.  AA kill rates, as reported by the US Navy post-war were 85+% in 1945 and SONAR made being a sub.........dead.  Ask the Germans in the North Atlantic in 1944 and on....

Balance is the issue; not elimination.   JMO.

[That WoT Player]

20 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Being "historic" and "realistic" means removing all of the air-strike depth-charges from ships that were not originally equipped with them.  🙂 

The epic whining made by anti-submarine players got the air-strike depth-charges implemented by the developers.
(For the record, I did propose that ships equipped with planes be able to add a depth-charge plane as a choice of fighters/spotter/depth-charge-dropper made while the ship was in Port.  WG/WOWs exceeded my modest proposal by leaps & bounds.)

Repair Party?  Unrealistic.
Radar functioning through islands?  Unrealistic.  Same for hydro-acoustic search, a.k.a. "sonar" or "ASDIC".

The list of equipment or capabilities that could be removed in the quest to conform with "historic" is a long one.

 

 

Realism and gameplay aren't mutually exclusive. "Realism" can be represented in the game as giving a particular ship its historic equipment, looks, and/or general capabilities, and modifying how it works within your game to fulfill a specific niche you want. Like how a DD was meant to attack larger ships with her torpedoes - ships larger than DDs (be it cruisers or large destroyer leaders) were meant to attack and sink the DDs before they could complete that mission - and even larger ships could try to sink those ships so the DDs could attack their targets. Boom, a generalized, but not unrealistic depiction of how differing ship classes can interact with each other in the game, in a convenient "rock, paper, scissors" layout. It's not perfectly realistic, but I did not claim it to be or expect it to function as such, so please do not take this out of context and blow it out of proportion. 

 

And, I still have to ask who said anything remotely like "I want WoWs to be a sim," and your anecdotal "I've seen it in the past" doesn't count. You haven't even shown us a screen shot or given us a link for us to make the judgement that "huh, these 2 arguments are similar" for ourselves. I have my doubts that those people who were arguing that WoWs become a naval sim, more akin to WT, were taken seriously and didn't get ratioed with laughing reactions. No, those conversations have no bearing on the here and now unless those people are the ones you're arguing with, and that probably would have been brought up by now. Painting a bunch of players with the same large brush of "I wish WoWs was more like a naval sim" is disingenuous and a misrepresentation of their arguments. If this were another place on the internet, I would have come to the conclusion that you're merely using this straw man of "mUh HiStOrIcAl AcCuRaCy" to deflect and ignore criticisms you don't want to face. I'm suppressing that notion for now; I would prefer it to be untrue. 

[Ensign Cthulhu]

16 minutes ago, That WoT Player said:

I would prefer it to be untrue. 

"That," said Yoda, "is why you fail." 😋

[Jakob Knight]

2 hours ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

I wasn't under the impression that anyone here thought WG were listening.

 

 

We really need better smileys ... because those tiny little ones don't work too well in conveying a meaning.

I'm sure that you don't seriously want me to go to the now-defunct forums (and wade through years of reddit posts) to dig out the names of everyone who expressed an opinion saying that DCP being used to clear pings was a bad mechanism?

You, who was more active on the WoWS NA server than I was, and who saw the same posts and complaints about that mechanism that I did.

 

 

I can tell you I thought it was a bad mechanism, though for different reasons than most who were complaining about it.  I thought giving the players an additional means to make a Sub miss it's only shot at them on top of what was already there was a bad thing to incorporate when the torpedoes already lost guidance a distance from the ship.  But, I came to realize having that additional 'Get Out Of Jail' option increased the challenge for the Sub and provided a backup for players who weren't up to using evasion, as well as opening new tactics for counterplay, so I came to accept it as an overall better thing to have for the game rather than something to be removed.

 

Now, having part of the ship strobe when pinged?  That I hate with a passion.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Jakob Knight

[That WoT Player]

1 hour ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

"That," said Yoda, "is why you fail." 😋

Mmmm, no: wrong context. The correct context would be if someone were to state an action as being impossible because they failed at that action. Kinda like saying WG won’t change because they themselves failed to change it… 🤭

[WES_HoundDog]

5 hours ago, Asym said:

Removing them simply fails on all levels.... 

I don't see how that is.  The game is just fine without them.     Aside from DD's becoming overpowered due to concealment issues.  Which I've advocated in the past for bot cv's to make getting spotted a concern as well as to keep the AA stat relevant.  

In another path, player manned CV's can stay with a massive overhaul to mechanics.   More planes, Tons more AA for more planes shot down as i posted in my 'Comprehensive guide to Improving world of Warships Part One'   https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/262578-comprehensive-guide-to-improving-world-of-warships-part-1/?tab=comments#comment-5881198

[Admiral_Karasu]

6 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

As I recall, this forum has at least one topic devoted to the "smileys" and other emojis.
I've got several that I saved as image files.
But, I seem to have exceeded my available upload space on this forum, so I can't keep inserting them into my posts as image files.
Of course, that's another topic.  🙂

 

Uhm... you have noticed, though, that you can 'reuse' anything you have uploaded by inserting it in the post by clicking on 'Insert existing attachment' under 'Other Media', have you not?

[MichaelJakaSwifty]

On 10/3/2023 at 5:21 PM, That WoT Player said:

As to the USSR skip bombers: I can still drop the bombs directly on the enemy ship’s head. Not even a difficult thing to do. 
 

As to the attackers: I can use the terrain to attack a target from even further away, even completely outside of their AA range. A little more difficult, but doable. 
 

And how does this prevent me from going slightly further around and circling back to attack the ship from a more favorable position? Terrain is meaningless, and does not hinder me in any way, unlike a DD or sub. 

confirms that of which I've consistently stated...

no counter against a good player of this ship class...

[SunkCostFallacy]

7 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

🙂

And I believe that internal surveys and research by WG/WOWs supported their decision(s) to make various changes in this game. 
While other decisions might also be explained by speculating that some in higher management of WOWs had a "Wouldn't it be cool if ..." moment and instructed personnel to make it happen.
Again, speculation on my part.  🙂 

 

 

Unfortunately that's the part I have trouble with.

How often are you surveyed? Since I stopped playing the PTS I haven't been surveyed at all ... and have only been asked the 'how satisfied with this match' question a handful of times.

WG went to great lengths to tell us that they do lots and lots of research into what the players want, and yet WG have a massive history of making decisions for their games which are incredibly unpopular. No doubt, as you say, some of them come from idiots in management ... but there are just too many instances for that explanation to apply to all of them.

Mind you - we've veered wildly off-topic and, to be honest, it's a depressing subject anyway.

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

9 hours ago, That WoT Player said:

You haven't even shown us a screen shot

I can't upload screenshots.  I've exceeded my available space on this forum, if I understand the situation correctly.

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Uhm... you have noticed, though, that you can 'reuse' anything you have uploaded by inserting it in the post by clicking on 'Insert existing attachment' under 'Other Media', have you not?

Thanks for that tip.  🙂 

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

 

Unfortunately that's the part I have trouble with.

How often are you surveyed? Since I stopped playing the PTS I haven't been surveyed at all ... and have only been asked the 'how satisfied with this match' question a handful of times.

WG went to great lengths to tell us that they do lots and lots of research into what the players want, and yet WG have a massive history of making decisions for their games which are incredibly unpopular. No doubt, as you say, some of them come from idiots in management ... but there are just too many instances for that explanation to apply to all of them.

Mind you - we've veered wildly off-topic and, to be honest, it's a depressing subject anyway.

 

I was surveyed, today, in-game.

[Andrewbassg]

9 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I can't upload screenshots.  I've exceeded my available space on this forum, if I understand the situation correctly.

 

Neither do I. But you can upload it to imgur( for example) and then copy/paste the link. And it will show up as image.

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Neither do I. But you can upload it to imgur( for example) and then copy/paste the link. And it will show up as image.

I like the idea.
I've merely been procrastinating on accomplishing it.  🙂