ArIskandir Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 8 minutes ago, OT2_2 said: None is forced to answer you or convince you of any kind, just FYI. I referred to "OverLordBou´s" take who stated that the changes are huge. In a very negative sense for all those playing CV. The point of a Forum is to exchange ideas, of course no one is 'forced' to anything here, but the common assumption is if you are participating on a Forum, you'll want to participate in exchanges. My contention point is though the changes are indeed huge, the 'very negative' aspect is way overblown and not sustained. Btw, I consider most of these changes moronic but not because of the 'negative' impact on CVs (which is mostly exageration). 13 minutes ago, OT2_2 said: Mostly no spotting at all, blinded of sector choice when attacking. Relying on "team mates", those who often can't fix their own shoelaces and who despise everybody else except themselves. I'll start with these: Blinded by sector: If and only if the sector is deployed before you enter AA range. Consider planes will have a consumable giving pre-warning about active sector and Def AA status, so you'll be able to abort/cancel attacks and void the sector effect. Even if you get caught by a sector effect, you can cancel/short the attack and drop a new attack while sector is in cooldown or while you are within AA range so no effect at all from sector. Sector can be tricked/avoided and now actually requires a very specific timing to be effective, on most cases I consider this a nerf to sector. No spotting at all: First, this is false, you can still spot and there's still the 'pink elephant' of figther behavior/spotting. Even then, it is a trade off by now having the freedom to traverse thru AA bubbles with impunity. Worst case scenario, this mean new rules of engagement and target acquisition, as I said the direct result is CVs will focus already engaged and 'hard spotted' targets, this in many cases represents no actual impact over current gameplay. Except you can now straight 'beeline' to your target without being bothered by other ships but your target being 'in the way'. Relaying on team mates: Boohoo, cry me a river pal... that's the same world every WoWS player has to inhabit, welcome to the suck. Quoting @Wolfswetpaws 2 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said: What's good for the "goose" is good for the "gander" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfswetpaws Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 2 minutes ago, ArIskandir said: Relaying on team mates: Boohoo, cry me a river pal... that's the same world every WoWS player has to inhabit, welcome to the suck. Quoting @Wolfswetpaws 2 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said: What's good for the "goose" is good for the "gander" Oh man! LOL Talk about turning my words around and sending them back in my face! LOL Well played! 😄 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 3 hours ago, ArIskandir said: I don't see a reason why the general playerbase would miss CVs, if they are gone, good riddance. I guess that's kinda the point, WG must have realized there's no particular benefit on keeping the subsidy for CVs. Intentionally tanking premium ships for the good of the game hasn't been behavior we have seen out of WG HQ, in my experience. There are a significant number of premiums and revenue sources dependent on people wanting to play CV. Cutting off that revenue would be a courageous decision, IMO. 3 hours ago, ArIskandir said: First off, I think people are misreading this set of changes. This is a significant change to the ways CVs are played, not a straight out direct nerf. People love to yell 'the sky is falling'... Yet it does not. I might go on deeper with my análisis but I'm a bit busy and tbh not too highly motivated. The actual nerfs are few, the change is mostly behavioral for CVs. Those of us who actually play CVs see what has been announced and it appears to be a straight out direct nerf to our ability to affect the battle. The nerfs are to core abilities and will require complete change of style. 2 hours ago, ArIskandir said: Ok, just some quick bits: 1- The change on travel mode voids AA screening and the AA support role, You now can be bypassed 2- The change to Reinforce Sector activation makes it 'unusable' and is a straight out nerf to strong AA ships. 3- The changes limit the impact of strong AA ships, AA is reduced to self defense and stops being a meaningful team asset. 4- The vision changes just mean CVs Will refocus on targeting already spotted ships. The result is more CV 'cross fire' and a heavier toll on being engaged and spotted. 1) AA screening is currently not at all actually effective unless the AA ship is within range of the attack animation. The outer AA bubble just doesn't have enough DPS. 2) We don't know yet how effective the new sectors will be. Blinding a CV is INCREDIBLY useful currently. 3) AA is currently self defense focused and is very limited team utility. 4) I don't think you or the community have any idea how pervasive CV spotting actually is. 1 hour ago, ArIskandir said: Questions yet to be answered: How would Fighters behave? Would they still spot as currently? How will AA interact with them? How will Fighters (including ship borne) will interact with attack squadrons? Will they intercept the strike element or the 'loitering' element? How significant will be the 'preparation time' increase? All good questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thornzero Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 On the twitch streem it was confirmed there will be a download prior to the CV testing for the isolated server. Whoever signed up will get an eMail with the details probably before Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSchoolGaming_Youtube Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 Is the changes "live" on PTS right now or are they still delayed? Just a bit confused that we haven't seen any videos on YT from the big streamers on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itwastuesday Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 7 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: Intentionally tanking premium ships for the good of the game hasn't been behavior we have seen out of WG HQ, in my experience. There are a significant number of premiums and revenue sources dependent on people wanting to play CV. Cutting off that revenue would be a courageous decision, IMO. Not that many? Ultimately there's few premium carriers and they've given most of them away. And few people want to buy an AA ship because that sounds boring, doesn't work and there's not many where that's the sell anyway. Further, carrier mains are a small group. People good enough at carriers that they care about these changes is even smaller. I suspect the average planeguy is just going to be happy that he's no longer expected to spot and he can just get to what he really wants - farming numbers off battleships. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolitudeFreak Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 5 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said: Is the changes "live" on PTS right now or are they still delayed? Just a bit confused that we haven't seen any videos on YT from the big streamers on this. No, this is round 2 of the next patch PTS. The CV test will be another separate game instance next week. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 2 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said: I suspect the average planeguy is just going to be happy that he's no longer expected to spot and he can just get to what he really wants - farming numbers off battleships. That appears to be the commonly held opinion by WG staff and most non-cv players. It's a delusion. Most CV players consider battleship farming to be incredibly boring. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itwastuesday Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 Just now, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: That appears to be the commonly held opinion by WG staff and most non-cv players. It's a delusion. Most CV players consider battleship farming to be incredibly boring. And you know most CV players? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said: And you know most CV players? I do know a lot of us. WG are apparently going to run the experiment so we shall find out. Ultimately all you and I have right now is speculation. What will be interesting will be the changes that havent been announced yet to incentivize players to choose CV... Edited July 25 by Daniel_Allan_Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itwastuesday Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 1 minute ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: I do know a lot of us. WG are apparently going to run the experiment so we shall find out. Ultimately all you and I have right now is speculation. My speculation is based on everything I have seen in the game. What do people want to do in destroyers? Torpedo battleships or farm them from smoke (or with speedboating). What do they want to do with cruisers? The same as destroyers but worse. Battleships? Much the same though they'll always shoot at cruisers to show dominance. Most carrier players - the average or worse ones - would have to fall into this usual crowd mentally. Big ship. Big numbers. Always visible. Easy to hit. Farm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said: Most carrier players - the average or worse ones - would have to fall into this usual crowd mentally. Big ship. Big numbers. Always visible. Easy to hit. Farm! Maybe the goal is CV player churn... Like I said, we will have to see. I might end up leaving if the gameplay isn't what I want...or not. I adapted the first time...I'll have to see what actually comes out. Edited July 25 by Daniel_Allan_Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itwastuesday Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 1 minute ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: Maybe the goal is CV player churn... Like I said, we will have to see. Well... Drive planeguys away from their class so hopefully they spend on something else. Lower the bar by making good CV players quit so new ones who don't own the premiums might spend. I think WG regrets giving away those carriercontainers back in the day that had crazy high drop chances. I have bought Bearn, nothing else. And I have all of these things floating around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 8 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said: Well... Drive planeguys away from their class so hopefully they spend on something else. Lower the bar by making good CV players quit so new ones who don't own the premiums might spend. I think WG regrets giving away those carriercontainers back in the day that had crazy high drop chances. I have bought Bearn, nothing else. And I have all of these things floating around Those would be the hopes, I'm sure. I don't know that current players will stay though. That's the risk. Most RTS players left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArIskandir Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 39 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: Intentionally tanking premium ships for the good of the game hasn't been behavior we have seen out of WG HQ, in my experience. There are a significant number of premiums and revenue sources dependent on people wanting to play CV. Cutting off that revenue would be a courageous decision, IMO. I think the 'negative' impact for these changes would be felt mostly by 'established' CV players who already have invested in some Premium CVs. If they get 'angry' and quit about this change (if it ever happens which I doubt) I feel WG's position would be "meh, you were already squeezed suckers"... so basically expected churn and playerbase rework. New bodies with no previous experience will be more receptive to the new standard. 44 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: The nerfs are to core abilities and will require complete change of style. Indeed. It will require a change in play style but that doesn't mean CVs play will be 'unplayable', just different. (Tho I need to say yet again, most of this changes are moronic imo. This is not my endorsement for this set of changes). 46 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: 1) AA screening is currently not at all actually effective unless the AA ship is within range of the attack animation. The outer AA bubble just doesn't have enough DPS. 2) We don't know yet how effective the new sectors will be. Blinding a CV is INCREDIBLY useful currently. 3) AA is currently self defense focused and is very limited team utility. 4) I don't think you or the community have any idea how pervasive CV spotting actually is. 1) I'm sorry to disagree but I have actual experience playing AA screens and it can be effective if you are in the way of the attack path, you either force an attack on yourself or force a wide detour over a possibly less than ideal drop angle. 2) The effectivenes of the sector is conditional to its activation, good CV players will bait or avoid it without much fuzz. Otoh the effectiveness of sector is null if the activation condition is null (yet very likely you still get cooldown debuff). Honestly this is a nerf, sector changes from being unavoidable damage buff to avoidable... it doesn't matter how strong it is if it can be more or less reliably avoided like Flak. As it is stated, the new sector is a nerf to continuos DPS. 3) AA team utility is linked to your deployment and can have significant impact on CV operations. The new 'travel mode' rule makes your deployment irrelevant. 4) I have plenty experience about CV spotting, mostly on the receiving end (as much as any veteran player). That's why I think the whole 'CV spotting panic' is overblown, is just another factor and not particularly critical but for a very limited number of ships (namely CLs) that depend on Concealment but don't have low enough values of Air detection to get by (like DDs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latouche_Treville Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 (edited) 3 hours ago, ArIskandir said: @OT2_2 @Latouche_Treville I see laugh but I see no arguments... do you think I'm wrong? I'm open to discussion... prove me wrong. Or even better, point your grievances and I'll prove you wrong. It was neither mockery nor dispute about your aguments, it just made me laugh. EDIT : Roughly i understood "we nerf in the most convoluted way the spotting abilities of aircrafts, and we nerf AA. Edited July 25 by Latouche_Treville 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 53 minutes ago, ArIskandir said: (if it ever happens which I doubt) We can hope so, but the RTS switch saw a lot of churn. 54 minutes ago, ArIskandir said: Indeed. It will require a change in play style but that doesn't mean CVs play will be 'unplayable', just different. (Tho I need to say yet again, most of this changes are moronic imo. This is not my endorsement for this set of changes). I think the open question for me is whether I find the new gameplay fun. I really liked RTS, and I enjoy the current play for different reasons than the RTS. I'm not really interested in just a damage farming style...which is what I worry this is a change to make happen. 56 minutes ago, ArIskandir said: 1) I'm sorry to disagree but I have actual experience playing AA screens and it can be effective if you are in the way of the attack path, you either force an attack on yourself or force a wide detour over a possibly less than ideal drop angle. As a CV main, I just plot a different path. AA screens are only situationally effective, IMO. 59 minutes ago, ArIskandir said: AA team utility is linked to your deployment and can have significant impact on CV operations. The new 'travel mode' rule makes your deployment irrelevant. It's mostly irrelevant now. Claiming this is a buff to CVs isn't very logical to me. 1 hour ago, ArIskandir said: I have plenty experience about CV spotting, mostly on the receiving end (as much as any veteran player). That's why I think the whole 'CV spotting panic' is overblown, is just another factor and not particularly critical but for a very limited number of ships (namely CLs) that depend on Concealment but don't have low enough values of Air detection to get by (like DDs). Yes, the amount of my reliance on plane spotting when playing DDs with less than high levels of concealment means I share your scoffing of the spotting panic. We will have to see what changes and then I'll see if I stick around or drift away. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArIskandir Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 26 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: It's mostly irrelevant now. Claiming this is a buff to CVs isn't very logical to me. It is mostly irrelevant because most players have no clue on how to position themselves to provide or take advantage of AA screens. Considered overall I would say it would be a change in dynamics, not a direct CV buff... CVs would just operate differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakob Knight Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 (edited) One thing I think we can all agree. The testing will reveal how much of what we have observed about the changes will be borne out beyond doubt. While I think quite a lot of the problems are self-evident, nothing demonstrates as comprehensively and conclusively as actually doing something. Edited July 25 by Jakob Knight 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ensign Cthulhu Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 5 hours ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said: Is the changes "live" on PTS right now or are they still delayed? Just a bit confused that we haven't seen any videos on YT from the big streamers on this. The changes are not going live on the PTS; there will be a separate test server for this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugilistic Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 I hope whatever happens helps. I’ve just seen population comparisons between last year and this; I tried to stay away from the wotapi site, but I had to look for myself after seeing it on video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSchoolGaming_Youtube Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 Did everyone else understand that they were doing fook-all about the CV fighters (portable radars) but this change in spotting is ONLY affecting attack squadrons? Are they seriously that disconnected so they thought it was just their flying around spotting that the community had a problem with?! I actually dont mind CV spotting that much if it means the CV has to commit his entire strike ability to fly around hovering over me, if he wants to take himself out of the game just to keep me lit, fine by me. I think most players like me has problem with CVs just throwing around portable radars (fighters) everywhere that ruins youre tactics/gameplay and its no effort for them, they can just fly away and attack something else while ruining the push for half the red team. Linked the timestamped section. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArIskandir Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 11 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said: Did everyone else understand that they were doing fook-all about the CV fighters Yeah, there were concerns... 23 hours ago, ArIskandir said: Questions yet to be answered: How would Fighters behave? Would they still spot as currently? How will AA interact with them? How will Fighters (including ship borne) will interact with attack squadrons? Will they intercept the strike element or the 'loitering' element? How significant will be the 'preparation time' increase? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ensign Cthulhu Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 21 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: That appears to be the commonly held opinion by WG staff Source? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iDuckman Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 On 7/21/2024 at 9:11 PM, hipcanuck said: While I am generally on the pessimistic side (getting old will do that to you), Im at least going to make the effort to participate in the test. I am neither the best and by far not the worst CV driver in the game but I am pretty consistent in damage output and fairly good at dodging flak, which is easier in some CV's than others. Some CV's I just cant get to work for me...Im lookin at you Midway!...most I have no issues with putting up the numbers and being on the + side of 50% WR. I hope that spotting will be done via mini map. If not, even average DD players will influence the outcome of the match once again. Same here. As was said to me, the CVers need targets too. That I can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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