Itwastuesday Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 AP rounds have an arming threshold, yet you can get full penetrations on even superstructures with battleship caliber ap rounds. Or paper armored cruisers if the round hits them when they're angled enough. Does the shell explode by eventually hitting some armored surface, or do they always explode anyway after some time? What's going on? Is the reason Kurfurst etc take a million damage to their super because the shell is inside the superstructure when it hits the deck? Can they still bounce? Does being inside a ship slow the shell down? Is it a mystery? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palestreamer Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 AP penetrates armor. Penetrating the armor sets off a timer, so it explodes a short time after penetrating. Because of the hard point of the shell needed to penetrate the armor, they can sometimes bounce off the armor. HE explodes on contact. Ammo - Global wiki. Wargaming.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevermore135 Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 Most large caliber AP pens you get from shooting superstructures are actually caused by the shell striking the deck underneath, stopping the shell and resulting in the shell detonating inside the superstructure. This is why in angled duels between BBs aiming for the base of the superstructure is such an effective tactic. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HamptonRoads Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcus_Aesopi Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 5 hours ago, Itwastuesday said: AP rounds have an arming threshold, yet you can get full penetrations on even superstructures with battleship caliber ap rounds. Or paper armored cruisers if the round hits them when they're angled enough. Does the shell explode by eventually hitting some armored surface, or do they always explode anyway after some time? What's going on? Is the reason Kurfurst etc take a million damage to their super because the shell is inside the superstructure when it hits the deck? Can they still bounce? Does being inside a ship slow the shell down? Is it a mystery? This is a great video with real pictures and explaination of what happens... enjoy... but don't get in the way! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfswetpaws Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 The USS Massachusetts took damage during the battle of Casablanca. Some of the exploded warheads were kept and preserved as museum exhibits. There is at least one compartment where the original shrapnel damage is documented by red paint marks on the otherwise grey painted walls. Some shrapnel hits are similarly marked with red paint on the exterior of the superstructure. And there is a hull plate with a hole through it, made by a projectile, preserved in the compartment that was hit and subsequently marked with red paint. Some web pages with photos. https://www.amis30porboston.com/2016/07/visita-uss-massachusetts-museo-Battleship-Cove.html https://www.tonyrogers.com/images/2004_uss_mass/index.htm "Fragment of a 16 inch shell fired by the USS Massachusetts (BB-59), later recovered from 60 feet below the armored deck of the Vichy battleship Jean Bart" https://www.pinterest.com.mx/pin/348184614940620043/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mashed68 Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 Something like 40 pounds explosive in a 2700lbs 16" American AP round, doesn't surprise me so much of the shell survives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleksi111 Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 The amount of explosives in given shell was an balancing act. Oversimplified: More boom = more smaller fragments that would destroyer the immediate area more thoroughly Less boom = less, but larger fragments that could punch thru more/thicker internal bulkheads and affect larger area And then There's the whole complex matter of -Can your shell make it thru an plate in a state where it's fit to burst?- Instead of hitting at high obliquity, having the base/body of shell whip and hit the plate and fail under the forces. In such a situation you might at most have the cap make it thu, but nothing else. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Slayer Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 10 hours ago, Itwastuesday said: AP rounds have an arming threshold, yet you can get full penetrations on even superstructures with battleship caliber ap rounds. Or paper armored cruisers if the round hits them when they're angled enough. Does the shell explode by eventually hitting some armored surface, or do they always explode anyway after some time? What's going on? Is the reason Kurfurst etc take a million damage to their super because the shell is inside the superstructure when it hits the deck? Can they still bounce? Does being inside a ship slow the shell down? Is it a mystery? Pathway of a 16” shell fired by USS Massachusetts BB-59 into an unknown ship undergoing salvage at in Casablanca Harbor - January 1943 Note how each hole gets larger and more ragged with each bulkhead/deck penetrated LIFE Magazine Archives - Eliot Elisofon Photographer Spoiler Sailor standing in the hole blown in the side of German Battle Cruiser SMS Derfflinger during the Battle of Jutland 31st May 1916 Spoiler German battle cruiser Seydlitz, damage from 13.5'' guns by Queen Mary, at the Battle of Jutland Spoiler American sailors examining the damage aboard the USS South Dakota (BB-57) following the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. November 1942 Spoiler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlooky Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 11 hours ago, Itwastuesday said: Does the shell explode by eventually hitting some armored surface, or do they always explode anyway after some time? The shell explodes when the fuse armor threshold is met and the fuse detonates. For example, Minotaur is especially deadly against DDs because her AP shells arm on 12mm of armor, as opposed to the standard 25mm of 6" guns. After arming, her shells detonate after a mere 0.005 seconds, vs the 0.025 of other 6" guns, making overpens extremely rare. 11 hours ago, Itwastuesday said: Is the reason Kurfurst etc take a million damage to their super because the shell is inside the superstructure when it hits the deck? I believe the reason GK eats so much superstructure damage is because of how incredibly big it is-the shell is armed and still inside the superstructure when it detonates. 11 hours ago, Itwastuesday said: Can they still bounce? Yes. Most extremely weird citadels are caused by some form of internal ricochet. 11 hours ago, Itwastuesday said: Does being inside a ship slow the shell down? I don't have a definitive answer for this, but I think it's safe to say no. This game isn't terribly concerned with having realistic damage simulations, and constantly running such calculations would likely be very computationally expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfswetpaws Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 (edited) Yamato vs Iowa class battleship | Armor Penetration Simulation Quote Yamato battleship gun: 46 cm/45 Type 94 naval gun muzzle velocity - 780 m/s 650 m/s refers to a distance of approximately 8 km. Angle of fall at 8 km - 5.5 degrees VS Iowa battleship lower belt armor* (290mm Class B armor at 19 degrees + 16mm HTS + 16mm HTS + 22mm HTS). Total angle 52 degrees. HTS - High Tensile Steel Class B armor (homogeneous armor) *The armor thickness varies from 307mm to 41mm. Edited July 12 by Wolfswetpaws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleksi111 Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 (edited) Here's what would be an Non-Pen in WoWS Quote >> Details of the hit, from Campbell's Battle of Jutland: This shell was a CPC fired at a range of about 19,000yds, and hit 28ft from the stern at middle deck level, 3ft above the legend, and probably just below the actual wl. It struck the after side armour on the joint between the 3'/4in upper and 4in lower strakes, and also on a' oint between two upper plates, and 3ft from a joint between two lower plates. The shell burst on the armour and the explosive effect inside the ship was small, but a piece 20in x 28in was broken off the corner of an upper plate, and one 12in x Min off the corner of a lower plate with two fractures 32in distant from it. The armour plates were bent inwards by as much as 32in and also displaced, while the hull plating inboard of the armour was destroyed for a length of 6ft to the main deck and driven 5ft inward. Below the armour the hull plating was bulged inwards to a maximum of 2ft with two vertical cracks 5'/2ft long. The hull vibrated longitudinally like a tuning-fork, and the main deck was pierced and bulged upwards apparently by armour fragments, the lower support of a 3.5in gun torn away from the middle deck, and this deck damaged and the armour deck distorted at the hull side. Compartments on the armour deck and some on the middle deck flooded, while a considerable quantity of water entered compartments below the armour deck, and the stern torpedo flat was half filled. The steering-engine ran hot, and the steering compartments flooded, but complete failure of the rudder gear was averted and, after a short interval, the steering gear functioned again, while it was possible to shore the bulkhead leading to the after engine. The change in the ship's draught from 29ft (fore) 28ftlOin (aft) before the battle to 28ft3in (fore), 31 ft2in (aft), with a list of 2° to starboard, after the battle, shows that over 1000 tons of water were present in the ship. British shell fuzes sucked in WW1, their APC shells tended to detonate immediately upon impact against even moderate plates if striking at any meaningful obliquity This being one of the reasons German ships actually kept going despite the horriffic battering they received. Edited July 12 by aleksi111 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mashed68 Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 5 hours ago, Unlooky said: I don't have a definitive answer for this, but I think it's safe to say no. This game isn't terribly concerned with having realistic damage simulations, and constantly running such calculations would likely be very computationally expensive. Yes hitting anything absolutely slows the shell down. How much depends. A 16" single plate of armor will stop a shell better then two 8" plates spaced apart. Shells also have caps. Some navies armor schemes were made with de-capping the shell and removing a lot of its penetration ability with the first layer, allowing the following layer[s] of armor to stop the round. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itwastuesday Posted July 13 Author Share Posted July 13 This was a game mechanics query, but all of this reality is pretty intresting too. Heh. 12 hours ago, Unlooky said: I believe the reason GK eats so much superstructure damage is because of how incredibly big it is-the shell is armed and still inside the superstructure when it detonates. Yeah, see, this is what I used to accept for years, it's what I heard on probably flamustream - the German superstructure is so big that ap shells have time to arm in it. But then, wait, that doesn't make any sense, it has nothing to do with fuse arming threshold if the shell travels through 1 mm of styrofoam or 2 kilometers of styrofoam? Though this was already answered. Matters ever so slightly for aiming and how you play some hulls. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfswetpaws Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 2 hours ago, Itwastuesday said: This was a game mechanics query, but all of this reality is pretty intresting too. Heh. Yeah, see, this is what I used to accept for years, it's what I heard on probably flamustream - the German superstructure is so big that ap shells have time to arm in it. But then, wait, that doesn't make any sense, it has nothing to do with fuse arming threshold if the shell travels through 1 mm of styrofoam or 2 kilometers of styrofoam? Though this was already answered. Matters ever so slightly for aiming and how you play some hulls. The projectile's fuse is initiated when it contacts an object. How far the projectile will travel after the fuse initiation will depend upon how much it was slowed-down by the contact (and/or subsequent impacts with barriers and the resistance each barrier provides). In a post above, there is a picture of a projectile that was found deep within the Jean Bart. So, the Jean Bart's hull & armor slowed the projectile enough to prevent it exiting the hull. If the same projectile had a different impact location and trajectory, it could have passed through the bow and either explode in mid-air (with a trajectory that mostly parallels the curvature of the Earth's ocean surface) or would plunge into the water if the trajectory was more like the arc of a rainbow. Another possibility is if a projectile hits armor and is unable to defeat it. In-game, we call these impacts "shatters", because the projectile is unable to penetrate the armor and is crushed like a beer-can under the forces of its own momentum and splatters itself like a bug hitting an automobile windshield. Example of the beer-can crushing. 😉 Bug hits windshield example I'm including this one partly for education and partly for amusement. On a "smaller scale" the *experiment* offers some examples of what happens when incongruous objects interact. 😉 Do Things React Differently When Shot Underwater??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleksi111 Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 (edited) Prince of Wales's compas platform got turned to slaughterhouse, with only 3 people making it out alive IIRC, from "simple" over-penetration of said platform by Bismarck's 38cm APC shell The crew a deck lower, (in pilot house?)* noticed it when blood started dripping down the communications voice tube *I would need to check the exact details from a book Edited July 13 by aleksi111 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfswetpaws Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 23 minutes ago, aleksi111 said: Prince of Wales's compas platform got turned to slaughterhouse, with only 3 people making it out alive IIRC, from "simple" over-penetration of said platform by Bismarck's 38cm APC shell The crew a deck lower, (in pilot house?)* noticed it when blood started dripping down the communications voice tube *I would need to check the exact details from a book A battleship projectile weights as much as a car (approximately). Send a car flying through your kitchen at 800 meters per second and the effects will be gruesome. So, I can understand the "slaughterhouse" similarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleksi111 Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 Indeed There's Slow-Motion footage in YT about spalling and splintering/flaking effects in targets Most impressive, albeit entirely different era, is Wasa museum's real sized test on historically Representative ship hull 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlooky Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 15 hours ago, mashed68 said: Yes hitting anything absolutely slows the shell down. How much depends. A 16" single plate of armor will stop a shell better then two 8" plates spaced apart. Shells also have caps. Some navies armor schemes were made with de-capping the shell and removing a lot of its penetration ability with the first layer, allowing the following layer[s] of armor to stop the round. If you read my comment or the original post, it should be abundantly clear that both of us were speaking specifically within the context of the game and not in real life. 8 hours ago, Itwastuesday said: This was a game mechanics query, but all of this reality is pretty intresting too. Heh. Yeah, see, this is what I used to accept for years, it's what I heard on probably flamustream - the German superstructure is so big that ap shells have time to arm in it. But then, wait, that doesn't make any sense, it has nothing to do with fuse arming threshold if the shell travels through 1 mm of styrofoam or 2 kilometers of styrofoam? Though this was already answered. Matters ever so slightly for aiming and how you play some hulls. I suspect it's the angling of the superstructure that gives it sufficient thickness to cause full penetrations, or if there's some sort of mechanic that causes the armor to "repeat" it's thickness to add more armor to penetrate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WES_HoundDog Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 (edited) 5 hours ago, Unlooky said: If you read my comment or the original post, it should be abundantly clear that both of us were speaking specifically within the context of the game and not in real life. I suspect it's the angling of the superstructure that gives it sufficient thickness to cause full penetrations, or if there's some sort of mechanic that causes the armor to "repeat" it's thickness to add more armor to penetrate. But at the end of the day, if a large AP shell hits the superstucture it should overpen it because it should come out the other side before detonation. However i believe there are three exceptions to this. 1. The shells goes in long ways so it stay inside structure long enough to detonate inside and 2. Even if the shell can not be armed by a piece of armor it hits. As soon as it does hit another piece of amour that is sufficiently thick enough to arm the shell (weather it be the deck, bridge, or through enough layers of angled superstructure), it will immediately explode as long as it is inside a part of the ship. 3. Welcome to rigged games throws all mechanics out behind a veil of RNG. Edited July 13 by WES_HoundDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe_trueno Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 how to easy explain WG mechanics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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