secondary guns overhaul

[pepe_trueno]

outside operations, secondary guns performance has been mediocre at best and  limited to a handful of ships. This is why i wanted to suggest a rework, Lets start with the problems:

*accuracy: secondary guns standar accuracy sucks and even abominations like the flandre that vomit secondary guns wont be hitting much past 10km

*penetration: outside german ships and few special ships the 1/6 rule makes most secondary guns deal no damage to anything more armored than a CL, IFHE does help in some cases but not even IFHE can save 90mm guns and the likes.

*range:  at high tiers range is fine the problem are the lower tiers, at t5 ships without enhaced range can increase secondary guns range up to 6.5km wich is not good when anything less stealthy than a DD has over 9km detection range.

*skills: over the years a lot has changed and not for the benefit of secondary guns. from secondary related skills no longer also increasing AA effectiveness to manual secondaries having a ramp up time. WG nerfing secondary skills and then releasing the german BC line with super buffed secondary guns did not help in creating variety.

 

solution to increase variety without overbuffing the existing choices:

Accuracy:

what we have now:

proposal:

On BBs: accuracy baseline should be "german BB" (do not confuse with german BC line accuracy which is "accurate")

On cruisers: accuracy baseline should be "accurate"

 

instead of applying a general  buff let's give each nation a  perk that apply to secondary guns say:

america: option to switch between secondary and AA mode, While in AA mode modifiers that increase secondary accuracy and ROF instead apply to AA accuracy and cont. damage 

japan: option to switch between HE and AP

france: +1km base range to ships 

russia: reduce base range but greatly increase DPM

italy: sap secondary guns   

british: increase fire chance

 dutch: buff accuracy, BBs will use the "accurate" dispersion and cruisers the "pensacola" dispersion. 

 

skills: go back to the original concept that Skills and modules that increase secondary range also increase AA range.

 

   

[Admiral_Karasu]

It just occurred to me, what was the reason WG implemented the secondaries in the game in the first place. Anyone have any idea?

[Unlooky]

Lets buff the most absolutely braindead armament in the game that requires 0 input from the player whatsoever. What a fantastic idea. 

Secondaries are very strong on the ships they are designed to be built for. These ship typically sacrifice their primary armament's capabilities or ship survivability in order to have good secondaries. 

There isn't really a reason to buff secondaries on ships which already have a myriad of other strengths except as a nerf to destroyers, who would suffer the most from such a change. 

Outside of specifically designed secondary ships, everyone else's secondaries being bad is totally fine because 

1) It gives the secondary ships more flavor and distinction from the non secondary ships. 

2) Secondaries require no skill whatsoever to use, just having sufficient resources (credits for equipment, CXP for commander skills) to make them potent. 

 

 

[Col_NASTY]

14 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

Secondaries require no skill whatsoever to use, just having sufficient resources (credits for equipment, CXP for commander skills) to make them potent. 

Can't this be said about almost every class in the game? 

They AA have AA we don't have to Aim manually. We all have access to MANY other resources.  CVs have fighters , We have SPOTTER PLANES we don't drive manually. HOMING TORPS? 

The list is long.

Secondaries have a LO impact on battles and are very easily avoided.

Try to avoid Planes and getting spotted by Robot fighters etc.

Autopilot on CVs so they can auto juke , change course etc. while the player is flying all over the map killing stuff with said planes?

AUTO HEAL AND REPAIRS?

If you step back you w9ill see.. ALL classes have their automatic bits.

Soloing out Secondaires is a bit unfair.

And I'm a DD main,  the MAIN victim of them who should be complaining.

[hipcanuck]

1 hour ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

It just occurred to me, what was the reason WG implemented the secondaries in the game in the first place. Anyone have any idea?

I believe it had to do with WG's idea that every ship line needed to have a 'thing' to make it special/play differently than other lines. In their thinking, nobody would play other lines because they were all similar. German BB's were the obvious choice for secondary guns because of their caliber and perhaps because the video shot from PE of Bismarck engaging Hood shows that Bizzy was using its secondary guns at what was likely around the 12km range

[WES_HoundDog]

1 hour ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

It just occurred to me, what was the reason WG implemented the secondaries in the game in the first place. Anyone have any idea?

Eye Candy.

 

Secondaries on BB's are overpowered already.    They should simply be a deterance for enemy dd's to get too close and free gunning bb's down.  But they should not be an end all to dd's shooting inside a certain range at a bb.    It absurd that in a PVP shooting game that non primary AI guns outdo what even main player controlled guns can do.  

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

Eye Candy.

It absurd that in a PVP shooting game that non primary AI guns outdo what even main player controlled guns can do.  

Seems contradictory. 

Anyways theyll never buff secondaries due to subs now. A surfaced sub within range would be torn apart with the old secondaries (any buffed secondaries). 

[Admiral_Karasu]

30 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

Eye Candy.

 

Secondaries on BB's are overpowered already.    They should simply be a deterance for enemy dd's to get too close and free gunning bb's down.

 

Well... I don't think they work in that sense very well.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

42 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

Eye Candy.

 

Secondaries on BB's are overpowered already.    They should simply be a deterance for enemy dd's to get too close and free gunning bb's down.  But they should not be an end all to dd's shooting inside a certain range at a bb.    It absurd that in a PVP shooting game that non primary AI guns outdo what even main player controlled guns can do.  

 

I remember when German BB secondaries were actually useful against DDs.

Not sure it was good for the game though.

[WES_HoundDog]

12 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Well... I don't think they work in that sense very well.

I know i'm not opening fire on a german BB inside his secondary range.  I don't care how gunboaty of a dd i'm in.   You lose, bigly!

[Admiral_Karasu]

1 minute ago, WES_HoundDog said:

I know i'm not opening fire on a german BB inside his secondary range.  I don't care how gunboaty of a dd i'm in.   You lose, bigly!

Okay, but why would a DD go that near to begin with. I don't think that is needed to fire your guns, the only reason I could think of is a suicide torpedo attack.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

2 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

I know i'm not opening fire on a german BB inside his secondary range.  I don't care how gunboaty of a dd i'm in.   You lose, bigly!

It's not as bad as it used to be.

WG nerfed the accuracy hard with the captain skill rework. It takes about 30 seconds to get up to anything dangerous now.

German BB secondaries are really only useful against cruisers these days.

[Unlooky]

2 hours ago, Col_NASTY said:

Can't this be said about almost every class in the game? 

 

Depends.

 

2 hours ago, Col_NASTY said:

They AA have AA we don't have to Aim manually. We all have access to MANY other resources.  CVs have fighters , We have SPOTTER PLANES we don't drive manually. HOMING TORPS? 

 

I agree with AA. AA is another aspect of the game which requires extremely low skill. However, everything else you've listed are not alike to secondaries. Spotter planes and fighters do not kill ships. Perhaps indirectly via spotting, but that's rare for ship based spotters. Secondaries directly deal damage to enemy ships and force them to respect whatever their range is depending on the class and secondaries. An apples to oranges comparison. 

2 hours ago, Col_NASTY said:

Secondaries have a LO impact on battles and are very easily avoided.

Try to avoid Planes and getting spotted by Robot fighters etc.

Autopilot on CVs so they can auto juke , change course etc. while the player is flying all over the map killing stuff with said planes?

AUTO HEAL AND REPAIRS?

If you step back you w9ill see.. ALL classes have their automatic bits.

Soloing out Secondaires is a bit unfair.

And I'm a DD main,  the MAIN victim of them who should be complaining.

This thread is about none of those things, so mentioning them was not pertinent to the topic. I dislike the defense of something by pointing out that worse things exist. Secondaries are fine in their current state and certainly do not need buffs.  

[WES_HoundDog]

2 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

It's not as bad as it used to be.

WG nerfed the accuracy hard with the captain skill rework. It takes about 30 seconds to get up to anything dangerous now.

German BB secondaries are really only useful against cruisers these days.

Considering it takes 20 seconds to go dark.   Whats that, 2-3 salvoes for 30 seconds of dangerous return fire.

 

 if you avoid all the shells on the first salvo your lucky.   it only get worse from there.

Edited July 7 by WES_HoundDog

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

8 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

Considering it takes 20 seconds to go dark.   Whats that, 2-3 salvoes for 30 seconds of dangerous return fire

It's not dangerous UNTIL 30 seconds have passed...unless you are low health and can't take a random hit or two...

[WES_HoundDog]

2 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

It's not dangerous UNTIL 30 seconds have passed...unless you are low health and can't take a random hit or two...

A random hit or 2?   One shot takes 20 seconds to go dark, thats about 5 salvoes back at you. 

>50% chance of getting hit on the very first return salvo.

thats over 2 hits in 2 salvos, about 4 hits in 3 salvoes, 6 in 4 salvoes, 9-10 in 5 salvoes.  

500 damage a hit= 5-6k worth of damage you take as a dd for fireing 1 salvo.   Thats 20% to 25% of your health for one salvo. Not to mentiopn all the broke moduels torp tubes, and fires.   And anyone else that might shoot at you.     don't give me that can't take a hit or 2. 

THERE IS NO POINT TO SHOOT!

Edited July 8 by WES_HoundDog

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

40 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

A random hit or 2?   One shot takes 20 seconds to go dark, thats about 5 salvoes back at you. 

>50% chance of getting hit on the very first return salvo.

thats over 2 hits in 2 salvos, about 4 hits in 3 salvoes, 6 in 4 salvoes, 9-10 in 5 salvoes.  

760 damage a hit= 6-7k worth of damage you take as a dd for fireing 1 salvo.   Thats 33% to 25% of your ehalth for one salvo,   don't give me that can't take a hit or 2.  THERE IS NO POINT TO SHOOT!

Secondary guns from a German BB are not going to hit you >50% on their first salvo.

Take out a fully specced Preussen and try it out...you will see.

[Arcus_Aesopi]

6 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

It just occurred to me, what was the reason WG implemented the secondaries in the game in the first place. Anyone have any idea?

Because they're real?  Kinda silly to model ships that existed with secondaries and not have em go pew pew!

It's the least egregious auto-battle implementation WG has done. 

🙂 

[WES_HoundDog]

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Secondary guns from a German BB are not going to hit you >50% on their first salvo.

Take out a fully specced Preussen and try it out...you will see.

In 20 seconds i did 4.5k to this kleber. (edit- and not even all my secondaries were fireing on him.)

 

IN 20 seconds i did 6k this this Kleber. 

 

50% hit chance on first salvo or not, the damage totals are spot on.

And don't Klebers saturate after like 1k damage?

And that's from a Bismarck.

Who didn't have the secondary Signal applied.

And without any adrenaline rush applied.

 

Edited July 8 by WES_HoundDog

[WES_HoundDog]

5 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Okay, but why would a DD go that near to begin with. I don't think that is needed to fire your guns, the only reason I could think of is a suicide torpedo attack.

The vast majority of my DD's don't have gun ranges further than german secondaries.    Yes you can increase ranges but i don't normally take that unless i'm in a gunboat.

But the fact remains.  I'm still not opening up inside secondary range they are so overpowered. (i'm sorry, "mediocre at best" so says the OP.)

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

46 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

In 20 seconds i did 4.5k to this kleber. (edit- and not even all my secondaries were fireing on him.)

 

IN 20 seconds i did 6k this this Kleber. 

 

50% hit chance on first salvo or not, the damage totals are spot on.

And don't Klebers saturate after like 1k damage?

And that's from a Bismarck.

Who didn't have the secondary Signal applied.

And without any adrenaline rush applied.

 

Co-op bots are significantly easier to hit than actual human players.

My advice is for randoms, not co-op.

[clammboy]

8 hours ago, Unlooky said:

2) Secondaries require no skill whatsoever to use, just having sufficient resources (credits for equipment, CXP for commander skills) to make them potent. 

This is simple not true learning how to actually use your secondary's with out dying takes quite a bit of skill. The actuall aiming part ok yes but playing a secondary BB doing damage with them and staying alive takes some skill.

[Unlooky]

1 hour ago, clammboy said:

This is simple not true learning how to actually use your secondary's with out dying takes quite a bit of skill. The actuall aiming part ok yes but playing a secondary BB doing damage with them and staying alive takes some skill.

I never said secondary ships require 0 skill. I said that the act of employing them to deal damage requires no skill. 

However, a great deal of secondary ships have a skill ceiling about two inches above the skill floor. 

[Itwastuesday]

Dunno what could be done with them. Letting the player actually aim them would break the game horribly, buffing them as they are would also just be kind of silly. Some kind of vector targeting mechanic perhaps, draw a zone to which they'll start firing? Can't have realism with them the way the game is. Tricky to implement skill based interactions. 

At this time it's quite fine to do nothing about them. 

[Wrath_of_Deadguy]

I'd settle for having the danged things load themselves at the start of the match, instead of waiting until there's a target in range, so that they're actually ready to fire when they're supposed to be instead of 3-10s after they recognize a valid target and line up on it. Every other weapon system on every ship starts loading as soon as the countdown ends; why are secondaries the exception?