Destroyer and cruiser line recommendation

[Unlooky]

5 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

They both have decent speed and can shift their rudders quickly.
Their guns are competitive at their tier.
They both have torpedoes.
 

1) Not unique to Napoli or Venezia line

2) Napoli's guns are hot ass 

3) It would be more unique to not have torpedoes 

I'll put it in bold and italics for you since I guess you didn't pick it up the first time. 

I was discussing the low tier ships preceding the Venezia per OP's request. At no point ever was Napoli ever mentioned because Napoli is neither a tech tree ship nor a ship you must play to grind Venezia. 

  

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

4 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The Napoli is available for coal, and she's fun to sail.  I enjoy sailing both ships.
I feel the nuanced variations between the Venezia and the Napoli make for interesting comparisons.

Commander Luigi Sansonetti makes a good Captain, too.  
https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/history/luigi-sansonetti/  
https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Special_Commanders

 

 

30 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

Napoli plays absolutely nothing like Venezia or any of the preceding ships in the line, which is what I was referring to.

 

11 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

They both have decent speed and can shift their rudders quickly.
Their guns are competitive at their tier.
They both have torpedoes.
 

 

3 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

1) Not unique to Napoli or Venezia line

2) Napoli's guns are hot ass 

3) It would be more unique to not have torpedoes 

I'll put it in bold and italics for you since I guess you didn't pick it up the first time. 

I was discussing the low tier ships preceding the Venezia per OP's request. At no point ever was Napoli ever mentioned because Napoli is neither a tech tree ship nor a ship you must play to grind Venezia. 

[Hodin] : "However, the only 'tool' diplomacy has is language. It is of the utmost importance that the meaning be crystal clear." 

Excerpted from the Star Trek episode named "The Mark of Gideon"
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708470/
 

[Unlooky]

5 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

10 hours ago, Unlooky said:

22 hours ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

But Venezia sounds awesome from what you have written. How are other cruisers leading up to it?

Extremely, extremely mediocre. Especially at lower tiers where ships still have distributed armor schemes and smaller superstructures your damage output can suffer. Definitely not a line I'm ever going to reset. 

The Napoli is available for coal, and she's fun to sail.  I enjoy sailing both ships.
I feel the nuanced variations between the Venezia and the Napoli make for interesting comparisons.

Please point out to me how and where mentioning Napoli answered OP's or contributed to mine in any meaningful way, shape, or form. 

[ArIskandir]

9 hours ago, aleksi111 said:

Brindisi isn't rly an proper upgrade for Amalfi, similar situation as with Baltimore -> Buffalo jump.

I prefer Brindisi over Amalfi, the heal is a BIG thing for a Cruiser. Rudder is the same, Turning circle is a bit larger but still really good for the tier. 

 

11 hours ago, Unlooky said:

Extremely, extremely mediocre.

Damage output and performance for the 203/53 (T7 and below) is sad, but the 203/55 you get at T8 is basically the same as Venezia (minus the T10 bullsh!t arbitrary buff). I found the T8-T9 to be very enjoyable, T9 in particular is a stand out for a tier where most Cruisers suck.  Beyond damage output, the Italians are the most enjoyable cruisers one can sail... fast, nimble, responsive... they can dance like no other. 

 

[Unlooky]

28 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Damage output and performance for the 203/53 (T7 and below) is sad, but the 203/55 you get at T8 is basically the same as Venezia (minus the T10 bullsh!t arbitrary buff). I found the T8-T9 to be very enjoyable, T9 in particular is a stand out for a tier where most Cruisers suck.  Beyond damage output, the Italians are the most enjoyable cruisers one can sail... fast, nimble, responsive... they can dance like no other. 

Interesting. That does make sense since T8 ships are more like T10 ships in terms of armor profile. It's been a while since I grinded Venezia and I was a pretty bad player at the time so I might have been too harsh in my assessment on the mid tiers. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 hours ago, Unlooky said:

Please point out to me how and where mentioning Napoli answered OP's or contributed to mine in any meaningful way, shape, or form. 

If one has the coal, one can exchange it for the Napoli "right now".
Then one can continue to grind the line or play with the "new toy" and use the FreeXP that it generates towards grinding the line.  
An additional option beyond simply grinding the line one ship at a time.

[YouSatInGum]

On 7/2/2024 at 2:12 PM, Wolfswetpaws said:

If one has the coal, one can exchange it for the Napoli "right now".
Then one can continue to grind the line or play with the "new toy" and use the FreeXP that it generates towards grinding the line.  
An additional option beyond simply grinding the line one ship at a time.

Napoli is actually very unique ship what doesn't really have much like it....schroder is next closest to it.

It's pretty much a pocket battleship with a complete bullshit armor scheme that really shouldn't be in the game since it breaks comp play.

It's a closish range cruiser with secondaries that really are a bit too good, I guess to make up for the lackluster DPM of the main guns.  The mains aren't bad per say, since they have excellent AP pen, but also shares the same funky dispersion formula that Petro has that requires getting to at 12km or close for any expectation of accuracy.  It also has a busted concealment (for a large cruiser) of 10 and change.

So what it's good at is flanking off the side at 10ish range looking for broadside ambushes or yolo opportunities to use its smoke party trick.

Venezia on the other hand doesn't have any of the armor bs of Nappy other that a smallish cit and some spacing, but it's best at range and doing north/south ( charge and kite) movements and if the banzai isn't gonna work well then use the smoke for a gamer turn. 

It's very different style from Napoli.

 

On 7/2/2024 at 12:39 PM, Unlooky said:

That does make sense since T8 ships are more like T10 ships in terms of armor profile.

Brindisi and Amalfi are both much less resilient in the armor dept.  It's much more common the get those *what the doodle* up the butt citadels on those two that Venenzia usually with get away with OP's.  Not having a heal, and marginal DPM make Amalfi a pretty average ranged cruiser with little utility.  If I was regrinding the line I'll probably use operations to get through Amalfi quickly.

 

 

 

 

[Nevermore135]

11 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

It also has a busted concealment (for a large cruiser) of 10 and change.

But Napoli isn’t a large cruiser, which is a large reason she’s so busted. She burns for 30s like a standard CA.

[YouSatInGum]

On 7/11/2024 at 10:35 AM, Nevermore135 said:

But Napoli isn’t a large cruiser, which is a large reason she’s so busted. She burns for 30s like a standard CA.

Burn time yes.

Reload and guns more like large cruiser. 

It's busted (in comp anyway) for several reasons but the biggest reason is the ridiculous armor values that mean only things like IFHE goliath and RN BB pen the thing.  I hesitate to make IRL comparisons since none of makes sense when you really think about it, but when the final weight with 2.5" armor over the whole thing would mean even floating would questionable....    then again we now have hybrid DD with magical spawning wingmen.

I just don't like concept of ships like Napoli that can reward stupid aggressive play because you can get away with stupid stuff with it. 

It needs the same sort of deck nerf that Petro got.  No more than 40mm armor. 

[Nevermore135]

3 hours ago, YouSatInGum said:

Reload and guns more like large cruiser. 

Napoli has 254mm guns. So do Piemonte (tier XI Italian tech tree cruiser), Castilla, and Novosibirsk, none of which are usually considered large cruisers.

Regarding her reload: it’s long (17s vs the 13s of Castilla, which also has 3x3 254mm) but it’s not uncommon for WG to give longer reloads to cruisers to offset other significant offensive or (usually) defensive advantages they possess compared of other ships of their type. Atago has a 16s reload compared to Mogami’s 14s, but she also has a heal, better torpedo angles, and better concealment. Prinz Eugen has 13s reload on her 8 guns vs. Hipper’s much better 10.5s in exchange for some very potent defensive advantages: a heal and a 40mm (vs. 30mm) turtleback that can’t be overmatched by even the largest BB guns. Boise/NdJ have worse range and reload than Helena, but have a super heal. The entire Italian heavy cruiser line has long reloads for their main battery armament because they have SAP. A very good argument can be made for Napoli’s 17s reload on her 9 10” guns compared to her peers by virtue of the defensive (her armor scheme and concealment) and other offensive (her accurate SAP secondaries and good torpedo angles/positioning) tools she possesses.

Napoli’s only “CB-like” characteristic is her tankiness, and tanky heavy cruisers have always been a thing (Moskva, Hindenburg back in the day, arguably the high tier UK options with their heals, etc.) and have not been lumped in with the traditional “large cruisers,” despite some being jokingly referred to as battleships back in the day.

Personally, I find it hard to group Napoli in the CB camp when she lacks all three of the features that have traditionally defined CBs since Graf Spee entered the game: the “Graf Spee” dispersion model, 45-60s burn times (worse than “traditional” cruisers), and larger guns of the caliber typically reserved for battleships in WoWs (283mm being the smallest BB caliber for a very long time, until the relatively recent addition of Illinois) with capped AP damage vs. destroyers. There are some ships usually considered “large cruisers” despite lacking one of these traits (Siegfried, Defense, and other more recent 6-gun ships have “normal” cruiser dispersion and the tier VIII and IX tech tree Dutch cruisers have smaller guns), but these ships still possess the other two and the one that is typically considered the sub-types Achilles’ heal: the extended burn times that now cannot be mitigated by captain skills. Napoli not only lacks this extended burn time, but she also doesn’t meet either of the other two criteria I mentioned above. The result for me is that Napoli feels more similar to a tanky heavy cruiser with a distinctive playstyle like Petro or Moskva and one of the other 9-10”-armed CAs that don’t have 10% capped AP vs DDs than any large cruiser.

It’s largely a pointless distinction of argue about anyway, though, since they are all just technically “cruisers” to the thing that ultimately matters most, which is the WoWs matchmaker. Even in a historical context there isn’t any consensus of what defines a large/super/battle/“whatever name Nation X decides on” cruiser.

3 hours ago, YouSatInGum said:

It's busted (in comp anyway) for several reasons but the biggest reason is the ridiculous armor values that mean only things like IFHE goliath and RN BB pen the thing.  I hesitate to make IRL comparisons since none of makes sense when you really think about it, but when the final weight with 2.5" armor over the whole thing would mean even floating would questionable....    then again we now have hybrid DD with magical spawning wingmen.

I just don't like concept of ships like Napoli that can reward stupid aggressive play because you can get away with stupid stuff with it. 

It needs the same sort of deck nerf that Petro got.  No more than 40mm armor. 

I agree with the sentiment.

>40mm armor does still exist on other heavy cruisers (Moskva and a few Japanese ships, for example) though, and Napoli actually does have “only” a 40mm deck like Petro. It’s her upper belt that is abnormally thick (60mm), but I would argue that isn’t nearly as big of an advantage as it seems at first glance. It doesn’t really offer any overmatch advantages compared to 40mm when angled and in my experience it’s easy enough (and more common) to direct cruiser HE onto either Napoli’s center deck or extremities if one understands the armor scheme. Either way, in my experience she isn’t really much more resistant to cruiser HE pen damage than Petro, and arguably less resistant to fires because she has “normal” DCP.

What really makes Napoli’s armor so broken isn’t the thickness of the plates themselves, it’s the combination of the thick type of plating we’d expect on high tier Soviet heavy cruisers without the exposed citadel weakness. Arguably the only “vulnerable” (and I use that term very loosely) parts of her armor are the 30mm shell catchers on her stern adjacent to her torpedoes and her 25mm extremities (although good luck reaching her citadel through these). Combine that with her recently buffed (via the captain skill changes) SAP secondaries and concealment, it’s no surprise her main battery is so lackluster compared to other tier X cruisers (heavy or large).

Edited July 14 by Nevermore135