Destroyer and cruiser line recommendation

[aleksi111]

Right, T5-T8 then

 

Furutaka is great T5, expecially when you realize how much surface area of her hull the 76mm side plate covers for richochett purposes.

Aoba is kinda downgrade, better gun RoF sure, but from her onwards the torpedo angles are... not good

Myoko and Mogami both are decent ships if you can work with their torpedo angle limits.

 

Königsberg is fantastic, IMO tier-for-tier the most fun and powerful German TT cruiser, you have same torps as on Hindenburg ...let that sink in + German 15cm guns.

Nürnberg is mostly ×1,1 Königsberg a tier higher.

Both are fragile, but have long range and enough agility to survive in open water if you keep eyes open

York is Okay, all-rounder, nothing flashy, nothing bad

Hipper sadly has deservedly bad reputation, her engine module is extremely fragile, to extend of DD HE on deck or near miss BB HE being able to K.O the engine

Nürnberg used to have HP box bug, where it's citadel hitbox potruded outside hull armor around bow turret, which lead to her being regarded more fragile than it actually is.

 

UK T4-T7 Light cruisers are fantastic & I love the combination of improved AP + heal + improved agility + smoke + single launch torps

Edinburgh at T8 is IMO downgrade from Fiji, you have worse gun angles and larger engine hump.

 

Helena, Cleveland & Baltimore are the standouts of US cruisers, Balti having improved AP Normalization, making her scary opponent for other cruisers + 27mm plating to richochett 381mm and smaller AP

 

Buddyonny at T6 is another fantastic ship, it's bit sluggish in turn but has exellent guns for all ranges +heavy torpedo loadout (albeit only 4km) & 115mm belt

 

Zara looks great on paper, but IMO it falls flat on account of two issues:

1. Smoke bloom vs effective gun range
2. SAP pen being less than in T8-T10, when she's more likely to see lot of distributed armor than higher tier Italian cruisers.

 

In DD front, you're hard pressed to beat Jervis in flexibility and all-round performance. Lightning is much the same, exellent ship.

Ernst Gaeda is an T6 I personally like, the 15cm guns have similar HE DPM as 12,8cm & you can reliably citadel mid-tier cruisers

 

There are obviously other good and terriffic ships aswell, but this recommendation list is already getting pretty long.

Edited July 1 by aleksi111

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

On 6/30/2024 at 3:35 PM, Ferdinand_Max said:

Destroyers I have decided to focus on British and US lines, as these are great gunboats and Japanese line for torpedo boats. Oh, and the Italian line for meme value. With that in mind, what would be good hybrid lines? I am thinking EU destroyer line (second line in particular)?

Regarding cruisers, I am looking for something that does not rely on island camping for survival... sure I'll do it if necessary, but I want to be able to chase down destroyers and open-water gunboat. So maybe British, French and Japanese lines? And is there any significant difference between left-hand and right-hand British and French lines in that regard?

I agree on the British DD line. Daring is really strong and the ships before her are quite nice as well. Im not that sure about the US tho, you dont see that many Gearings in the game these days, imho it pretty meeh and almost more power crept than Shima, that still can nuke BBs with its torps.

Other strong contenders in the DDs are French. Kleber and Mogador are amazing strong gunboat DDs that acts more like mid-range fire spamming cruisers. Other strong ones are IJN Gun boat line with Harugumo at T10. The T8 and 9 are also some of the strongest in their tier. Also best line to reset for RB points.

Regarding cruisers, what do you mean with "chase down gunboat DDs"? They are usually at range so then Wooster and Des Moines will probably not be the best since they are better at killing DDs in caps at close range. I would probably also disqualify Brits and Mino here as well. French line is good with decent gun arcs and reload booster. My absolute favorite line over all is Italian with Venezia. Ven can NUKE any DD at most ranges with SAP. NO Gunboat DD wants to even try to harass a flank where the red team has a Venezia. Its also very strong at almost everything else as well.

So my picks are:

Kleber

Harugumo

Halland is great as well, good torps/guns, heal and AA

 

Henri V

Venezia

Edited July 1 by OldSchoolGaming_Youtube

[ArIskandir]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

I'm planning at staying mostly at T5 - T8, at least for the foreseeable future.

Wise choice! (I did the same btw)

Refining the data under that parameter:

S- grade:  Spanish CAs. Just try them, thank me later.

A-grade: Germany (T5-T6 are awesome, a bit fragile tho; T7 is quite tanky and the guns are punchy; T8 is the weakest of the lot). IJN CAs are very tanky at mid tiers with very strong deck armor, the guns are punchy but with slow RoF and turret traverse so they feel like BB Jr; Mogami 155mm at T8 is a change, a bit meme-ish. USN T8s are excellent, both Cleveland and Baltimore are great ships, the previous tiers are meh (Helena has ludicrous volume of fire tho). 

B-grade: Soviets, there are folks that love them but I don't, the guns are great and they can deliver a nasty volume of fire but they are very boring to play, very unwieldly, turn like a freight train and have ginormous citadels, I see no reason to play them over ze germans at these tiers (the germans have improved HE pen which is very useful); at T8 they grow Radar which is very useful and makes them more interesting to play. UK CLs lack of HE sets them at a disadvantage against enemies that know what angling means, they are great ships but I think they struggle with the game's meta (BB overload, Subs and CVs difficulting Concealment), the toolkit is great en they are fun to play but they aren't the easiest lien to play, I would recommend them for a later stage when you want more challenge. France is 'temperamental' the base performance is mediocre but you have a magic belt that makes them amazing for a limited time: Reload booster, speed boost, hydro/defensive AA; as a personal opinion, I don't like the ballistics considering they are long range spammers, overall I consider the Spanish similar but more consistent.

The rest are meh or have some very notorious weakness that makes them less flexible or just increases the skill floor required without adding a significant skill ceiling increase. UK CAs are solid workhorses but offer nothing particularly attractive. The Italians are very agile and fun to play, but the 152mm SAP performance is almost tragic. Pan-American lacks HE while also lacking the improved AP angles of the Brits, they are very situational (T5 is a bit of a monster tho). Pan-Asian are just too weak and struggle to have a meaningful impact on the offensive. The Dutch lack offensive power and their amazing AA is not yet fully developed at mid-tiers. 

I want to reserve my opinion on the IJN CLs and Commonwealth lines, I don't have too much experience on Randoms with them. The little experience I've had is positive but I don't know if it would be consistent of translatable to other players.

[Ferdinand_Max]

2 hours ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Regarding cruisers, what do you mean with "chase down gunboat DDs"? They are usually at range so then Wooster and Des Moines will probably not be the best since they are better at killing DDs in caps at close range. I would probably also disqualify Brits and Mino here as well. French line is good with decent gun arcs and reload booster. My absolute favorite line over all is Italian with Venezia. Ven can NUKE any DD at most ranges with SAP. NO Gunboat DD wants to even try to harass a flank where the red team has a Venezia. Its also very strong at almost everything else as well.

 

Uh, not what I meant at all. What I meant by

2 hours ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

chase down destroyers and open-water gunboat

is that they should be able to:

a) chase down destroyers (either ambush them or push them back from caps)

b) perform well in open water against cruisers and battleships

So basically accurate guns, good HE and good response to rudder / rudder shift.

But Venezia sounds awesome from what you have written. How are other cruisers leading up to it?

57 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

S- grade:  Spanish CAs. Just try them, thank me later.

 

Will do.

Thanks! From your descriptions, Spanish, USN, UK and FR cruisers sound fun.

[ArIskandir]

10 minutes ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

a) chase down destroyers (either ambush them or push them back from caps)

In order to ambush you require Radar, iirc all Radar T8 Cruisers are able to stealth Radar which is quite nasty.

To succesfuly push a DD you need Hydro and good speed (over 35 knots as a rule of thumb).  

Italians are very scary just because the SAP threat, no DD wants to be close to an Italian cruiser... so they give way. 

17 minutes ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

perform well in open water against cruisers and battleships

So basically accurate guns, good HE and good response to rudder / rudder shift.

Turning circle is also a very important factor to be able to 'get out of the way' of incoming shells. Italian and French CAs have amazing compact turning circles, worth investing in double rudder modules (slots 4 and 5). At long ranges you become 'untouchable' when actively dodging. 

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

43 minutes ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

Uh, not what I meant at all. What I meant by

is that they should be able to:

a) chase down destroyers (either ambush them or push them back from caps)

b) perform well in open water against cruisers and battleships

So basically accurate guns, good HE and good response to rudder / rudder shift.

But Venezia sounds awesome from what you have written. How are other cruisers leading up to it?

Will do.

Thanks! From your descriptions, Spanish, USN, UK and FR cruisers sound fun.

Well, chasing down destroyers in caps and open-water gunboat is two totally different things in WOW. Wooster and DM excel at killing/forcing DDs out of caps du e to decent conceal, long duration radar, hydro, decent AA and high DPM, but they kinda suck in open watering BBs due to lack of armor and range.

Cruisers like Henri and Venezia Excels at shooting and hurting open water DD gunboats at range due to hard hitting shells and good ballistics. They also excel att damaging BBs from range due to tricky armor and great range, but they kinda suck at challenging DDs in caps since they lack radar.

So you basically have to choose one or the other, unless you go for the OG Monster, Supership Annapolis that can burn down any BB from 19 km range and then push into caps and kill 2-3 DDs.

Venezia is Awesome, but in this case I think I remember the T8-9 being somewhat "Meeeh" which is the case in most lines tbh.

 

[S7CentNickel]

5 hours ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

I agree on the British DD line. Daring is really strong and the ships before her are quite nice as well. Im not that sure about the US tho, you dont see that many Gearings in the game these days, imho it pretty meeh and almost more power crept than Shima, that still can nuke BBs with its torps.

Other strong contenders in the DDs are French. Kleber and Mogador are amazing strong gunboat DDs that acts more like mid-range fire spamming cruisers. Other strong ones are IJN Gun boat line with Harugumo at T10. The T8 and 9 are also some of the strongest in their tier. Also best line to reset for RB points.

Regarding cruisers, what do you mean with "chase down gunboat DDs"? They are usually at range so then Wooster and Des Moines will probably not be the best since they are better at killing DDs in caps at close range. I would probably also disqualify Brits and Mino here as well. French line is good with decent gun arcs and reload booster. My absolute favorite line over all is Italian with Venezia. Ven can NUKE any DD at most ranges with SAP. NO Gunboat DD wants to even try to harass a flank where the red team has a Venezia. Its also very strong at almost everything else as well.

So my picks are:

Kleber

Harugumo

Halland is great as well, good torps/guns, heal and AA

 

Henri V

Venezia

It always hurts when I reset my Haragumo line. Probably my favorite dd line.  

[Unlooky]

11 hours ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

But Venezia sounds awesome from what you have written. How are other cruisers leading up to it?

Extremely, extremely mediocre. Especially at lower tiers where ships still have distributed armor schemes and smaller superstructures your damage output can suffer. Definitely not a line I'm ever going to reset. 

[aleksi111]

For me, I pretty much hated Italian cruisers upto Amalfi, where the Italian national flauvors finally start to come together.

Brindisi isn't rly an proper upgrade for Amalfi, similar situation as with Baltimore -> Buffalo jump.

You get get a heal, 3 more guns and 6th upgrade slot, but you pay for that in form of more clunky ship that needs to expose dangerous amount of side armor to utilize the extra firepower advantage.

 

TLD: Amalfi is great T8 & Venezia is Fantastic T10

Rest of the line ranges from mediocre to plain bad

[Project45_Opytny]

1 hour ago, aleksi111 said:

Brindisi isn't rly an proper upgrade for Amalfi, similar situation as with Baltimore -> Buffalo jump.

You get get a heal, 3 more guns and 6th upgrade slot, but you pay for that in form of more clunky ship that needs to expose dangerous amount of side armor to utilize the extra firepower advantage.

Brindisi actually has better firing angles (28 forward/27 backward) comparing with Amalfi (30/34 respectively),as well as higher propulsion power/tonnage ratio (faster acceleration), non-vulnerable rudder module that may have one commander skill point saved (Amalfi has no rudder splash damage immunity), and a heavier salvo weight that may have better chances for a more decisive salvo considering how Italian heavy cruisers fight (12 guns, 62400 versus Amalfi's 9 guns, 46800, both in SAP,  identical ballistics).

[Ensign Cthulhu]

3 hours ago, aleksi111 said:

you pay for that in form of more clunky ship

I recently moved up to the Venezia. I can't get over how long it is; bigger than many battleships.

Can't completely shake off the idea that the extra turret brings too much length with it. A lot of RU and Italian cruisers are like that; lots of bow and stern either end of the turrets. Contrast British cruisers and especially the Caracciolo, which has the shortest aft behind the Y turret that I've seen in this game.

[Project45_Opytny]

19 hours ago, aleksi111 said:

Hipper sadly has deservedly bad reputation, her engine module is extremely fragile, to extend of DD HE on deck or near miss BB HE being able to K.O the engine

Not that fragile, resistant to up to 203mm HE according to data mining and compilation. True outlier at higher tier tech tree ships seems to be Harbin for which Last Stand is of absolute necessity thanks to highly vulnerable engine and rudder modules.

Drawn by myself, compiled from a 3rd party database.

19 hours ago, aleksi111 said:

Myoko and Mogami both are decent ships if you can work with their torpedo angle limits.

I think you have missed what really makes Mogami unique. The true and historical Japanese higher tier light cruiser with 155mm gun module that has also heavy cruiser amidships, as well as counters USN battleships with an IFHE build.

19 hours ago, aleksi111 said:

Edinburgh at T8 is IMO downgrade from Fiji, you have worse gun angles and larger engine hump.

Not really for firing angles, from what I've queried, firing angles of Fiji and Edinburgh are generally the same, very slightly better for Edinburgh actually.

19 hours ago, aleksi111 said:

Smoke bloom vs effective gun range

This has been the case since the introduction of tech tree Italian cruisers. Don't fire when using full-throttle smokescreen or intending to use it in heated close-range combat to avoid that.

[Wolfswetpaws]

5 hours ago, Unlooky said:

17 hours ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

But Venezia sounds awesome from what you have written. How are other cruisers leading up to it?

Extremely, extremely mediocre. Especially at lower tiers where ships still have distributed armor schemes and smaller superstructures your damage output can suffer. Definitely not a line I'm ever going to reset. 

The Napoli is available for coal, and she's fun to sail.  I enjoy sailing both ships.
I feel the nuanced variations between the Venezia and the Napoli make for interesting comparisons.

Commander Luigi Sansonetti makes a good Captain, too.  
https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/history/luigi-sansonetti/  
https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Special_Commanders

 

Edited July 2 by Wolfswetpaws

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

14 hours ago, S7CentNickel said:

It always hurts when I reset my Haragumo line. Probably my favorite dd line.  

Same here! But at the same time I always know that I can Fast-Track my grind thru T5-7 with Free XP and then just enjoy amazing game play while grinding the very efficient T8-10 with boosters and well trained captains that I save between every reset.

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

11 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The Napoli is available for coal, and she's fun to sail.  I enjoy sailing both ships.
I feel the nuanced variations between the Venezia and the Napoli make for interesting comparisons.

Commander Luigi Sansonetti makes a good Captain, too.  
https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/history/luigi-sansonetti/  
https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Special_Commanders

 

My only self-inflicted pet peeve here is that I cant use Sansonetti for both, mostly because I insist on using the somewhat trolly full secondary build for Napolis for gags.

[aleksi111]

2 hours ago, Project45_Opytny said:

Brindisi actually has better firing angles (28 forward/27 backward) comparing with Amalfi (30/34 respectively),as well as higher propulsion power/tonnage ratio (faster acceleration), non-vulnerable rudder module that may have one commander skill point saved (Amalfi has no rudder splash damage immunity), and a heavier salvo weight that may have better chances for a more decisive salvo considering how Italian heavy cruisers fight (12 guns, 62400 versus Amalfi's 9 guns, 46800, both in SAP,  identical ballistics).

Two counterpoints there:

1. Slower rudder shift meaning you are more likely to have just that small bit of oversteering

2. 28° angle already is close enough to the standard 30° Normalization limit that any mistakes is enough to tip it over.

 

Practically speaking, you have to ride on knife's edge to bring half of your firepower to bear -Expecially when we factor in the curvature of the hull profile-, same with Buffalo where as both Amalfi & Baltimore can play it safer and only lose ⅓ of their firepower.

Against Fleeting targets, DDs expecially you are entirely correct about the value of Alpha strike of Brindisi. But that comes with downsides.

 

As for Mogami, please point out to me where I recommended the 203mm guns over 155mm

 

For Hipper

Sad to disagree with your data there due to own experience, cause I've done that to both human and AI Hipper's semi-regularly since the thing came out.

Thunderer HE particularly is able to reliably K.O Hipper's engine with just near miss splashes

Edited July 2 by aleksi111

[Wolfswetpaws]

15 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

My only self-inflicted pet peeve here is that I cant use Sansonetti for both, mostly because I insist on using the somewhat trolly full secondary build for Napolis for gags.

I've got my Sansonetti on my Napoli, and assigned another Commander to my Venezia.

[Project45_Opytny]

4 minutes ago, aleksi111 said:

Slower rudder shift

Incorrect, nearly identical with Brindisi in fact slightly better.

6 minutes ago, aleksi111 said:

28° angle already is close enough to the standard 30° Normalization limit that any mistakes is enough to tip it over.

Are you serious that being within standard guaranteed ricochet limit is worse than just a little outside of the said limit?

At least this should prove that like Buffalo, their firing angles are not that significantly worse than their predecessors as many may indicate.

11 minutes ago, aleksi111 said:

you have to ride on knife's edge to bring half of your firepower to bear

Running Incoming Fire Alert can mitigate the problem somewhat, considering her turning radius and propulsion power-tonnage ratio.

16 minutes ago, aleksi111 said:

As for Mogami, please point out to me where I recommended the 203mm guns over 155mm

I just consider that the 155mm peculiarity is something worth intentional stressing.

17 minutes ago, aleksi111 said:

Thunderer HE particularly is able to reliably K.O Hipper's engine with just near miss splashes

This disproves nothing as Thunderer HE is of 457mm, well above the 203mm immunity threshold.

[aleksi111]

8 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

Running Incoming Fire Alert can mitigate the problem somewhat, considering her turning radius and propulsion power-tonnage ratio.

Which is a captain point that could go somewhefe else...

9 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

This disproves nothing as Thunderer HE is of 457mm, well above the 203mm immunity threshold.

Yesn't

Again, I have K.Oed Hipper engine with DD grade HE hits -which you claimed was impossible- and here in later stage gave Thunderer as example of HE that can accomplish the thing without even landing a hit

Data is only as good as the algorithm & inputs

12 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

Are you serious that being within standard guaranteed ricochet limit is worse than just a little outside of the said limit?

Did you intentionally skip the key bit?

The:

>Expecially when we factor in the curvature of the hull profile-

or do you deny that ship's narrow towards their ends, thus changing the LoS angle towards incoming shell?

 

We were here to offer advices to original posters questions about ship lines, so can we not start a pissing match?

Neithet of us will win

Maybe recommend some ships to OP that we haven't mentioned already

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

50 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I've got my Sansonetti on my Napoli, and assigned another Commander to my Venezia.

For me I feel like I have way more ways of triggering his special buffs on Venezia. In my first game in that ship I think I triggered him 3-4 times.

[Wolfswetpaws]

6 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

For me I feel like I have way more ways of triggering his special buffs on Venezia. In my first game in that ship I think I triggered him 3-4 times.

I think I had welcomed my Napoli for over a hear year prior to welcoming my Venezia.
Researching the Italian Cruiser line was fun, but not a high priority, for me.
And other events and their missions often distracted from it by requiring that I play other ships to efficiently complete the tasks.

So, while I'm fairly familiar with the Napoli, I think I'm still gaining the required familiarity with my Venezia.
I do enjoy their fast rudder-shift times.  
"Oh, you fired at me?"  ::: shifts the rudder and "just dodges" incoming gunfire ::::  "Well, how about that,eh?"  🙂
 

Edited July 2 by Wolfswetpaws

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

43 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

So, while I'm fairly familiar with the Napoli, I think I'm still gaining the required familiarity with my Venezia.
I do enjoy their fast rudder-shift times.  
"Oh, you fired at me?"  ::: shifts the rudder and "just dodges" incoming gunfire ::::  "Well, how about that,eh?"  🙂

I feel like "Incoming fire alert" skill in Venezia is almost broken. I mostly play at mid to long range but I hardly get hit seriously by any BB during the game. Every time I see that red ! pop up I just hit the breaks and turn and if BB guy is lucky he gets one hit on me.

I also feel like either Venezia armor is decent, or citadel is a bit trolly because I hardly suffer any huge citadel smacks like I do in most other cruisers from time to time. So all this + smoke + SAP + somewhat decent long range torps makes this my go-to T10 cruiser.

[Wolfswetpaws]

38 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

I feel like "Incoming fire alert" skill in Venezia is almost broken. I mostly play at mid to long range but I hardly get hit seriously by any BB during the game. Every time I see that red ! pop up I just hit the breaks and turn and if BB guy is lucky he gets one hit on me.

I also feel like either Venezia armor is decent, or citadel is a bit trolly because I hardly suffer any huge citadel smacks like I do in most other cruisers from time to time. So all this + smoke + SAP + somewhat decent long range torps makes this my go-to T10 cruiser.

I don't bother with "Incoming Fire Alert" and use the points elsewhere.
But, yeah, I have to pay attention to my positioning and how many opponents can fire at me at any given moment.  🙂 

I hadn't particularly noticed the armor traits you mentioned.  Now you've got me curious.  🙂 

[Unlooky]

4 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The Napoli is available for coal, and she's fun to sail.  I enjoy sailing both ships.
I feel the nuanced variations between the Venezia and the Napoli make for interesting comparisons.

Commander Luigi Sansonetti makes a good Captain, too.  
https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/history/luigi-sansonetti/  
https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Special_Commanders

 

Napoli plays absolutely nothing like Venezia or any of the preceding ships in the line, which is what I was referring to.

[Wolfswetpaws]

17 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

Napoli plays absolutely nothing like Venezia or any of the preceding ships in the line, which is what I was referring to.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

They both have decent speed and can shift their rudders quickly.
Their guns are competitive at their tier.
They both have torpedoes.