How do you deal with dolphining

[Itwastuesday]

4 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

Well, that will get you banned from the game for abusing the reporting system, 

No. 

[Ferdinand_Max]

16 hours ago, Silence_CN said:

You said you were playing DD.
Question is "what kind of DD" ?
For, if you have hydro, it's easy to come close to a sub and nade  this thing till it sinks.
Remember also that their torps do not arm if you're too close.

This said, I admit I am a bit agressive towards subs when I am in a DD. The main goal remaining the same : get rid of a spotter/potential threat for the team.

I must also addmit it does not work all the time.  😛 

Honnestly, I go and chase subs most of the time. Whether you like it or not, they are always a threat. My favourite trick being chasing them with a BB  and ASW planes. 😛 
(and yes : it works...)

When I'm one-on-one against a sub, I nail it with no issue. That is not the problem.

Problem I am having is when sub has backup and abuses dolphining mechanic to keep me spotted with no possibility of any kind of retaliation. In such conditions, bolded seems impossible.

And it was a British DD, IIRC.

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

When I'm one-on-one against a sub, I nail it with no issue. That is not the problem.

Problem I am having is when sub has backup and abuses dolphining mechanic to keep me spotted with no possibility of any kind of retaliation. In such conditions, bolded seems impossible.

And it was a British DD, IIRC.

 

Every ship is trying to sink the ships of the opposing team.  It's their job.

If it were your team's submarine doing their job properly, then would you have a problem with that?

Several updates and years ago, the diving/surfacing of Submarines was slowed-down.  It was nerfed.
It's now painfully slow (compared with how it was during early submarine testing).

 

[Ferdinand_Max]

44 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Every ship is trying to sink the ships of the opposing team.  It's their job.

If it were your team's submarine doing their job properly, then would you have a problem with that?

Several updates and years ago, the diving/surfacing of Submarines was slowed-down.  It was nerfed.
It's now painfully slow (compared with how it was during early submarine testing).

 

Tell me something I don't know, please.

[Wolfswetpaws]

Just now, Ferdinand_Max said:

Tell me something I don't know, please.

Then stop behaving as though you don't know it.  😉 

[Ferdinand_Max]

3 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Then stop behaving as though you don't know it.  😉 

Yeah well I'm not complaining here, I'm asking for advice.

[Jakob Knight]

37 minutes ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

Yeah well I'm not complaining here, I'm asking for advice.

 

I wanted to add one more piece of advice that may or may not apply, depending on if you yourself play Subs or not.

 

Think about how you would think if you were in the Sub and what the very worst thing the DD you would be facing could do to ruin your day and consider doing that.  It's a simplistic approach, but if you can't think of a definite tactic to go with in the moment, at least it gives you an option your opponent won't like.

 

Good hunting!

 

(Unless I'm in the Sub, of course!)

 

 

[ArIskandir]

2 hours ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

When I'm one-on-one against a sub, I nail it with no issue. That is not the problem.

Problem I am having is when sub has backup and abuses dolphining mechanic to keep me spotted with no possibility of any kind of retaliation. In such conditions, bolded seems impossible.

And it was a British DD, IIRC.

 

Can You provide more information on the particulars? 

For example, Lighting (a British DD) with 5,5 km concealment is able to face spot any Submarine in Game, making her one of the most powerful ASW ships in game.  

You Say the Sub has backup, but do You?  An important thing to understand is on those situations, the engagement is a 'spotting' battle; it isn't You but your team mates (support) who deliver damage, You are there to spot the Sub not to directly engage. 

By keeping 'trigger discipline' You 'disable' dolphining as the Sub will only be able to spot You on Surface, a situation where You Will spot him back... The defining factor is who of You has the Best support and who can mitigated damage better, as neither of You can deliver direct damage on the other (the Sub because simply can't; the DD because losing concealment on gun bloom and thus becoming able to be spotted from Periscope)  

As a DD You have the option to use your guns on the Sub and deliver some damage, as long as you understand when the Sub goes down to Periscope you'll remain spotted. In that case You can break LoS and go dark using smoke... British ninja smoke is excellent for that.

[SoshiSone]

1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

You Say the Sub has backup, but do You?  An important thing to understand is on those situations, the engagement is a 'spotting' battle; it isn't You but your team mates (support) who deliver damage, You are there to spot the Sub not to directly engage. 

^^^This^^^

Support ships can put a lot of surface fire on a spotted DD and a lot of ASW drops on a spotted sub.  SUPPORT is key.  As a BB player, if a sub is spotted (even just a ping spot) in range, I'm dropping ASW.  Once you get good at it, the switch from whatever you're doing at the moment to putting down a drop is only a few seconds of time.  Target.  Assess (predict).  Drop.  Then back to doing whatever you were doing.  Unlike targeting DDs (where if your turrets aren't positioned correctly, you can't even get a shot) ASW is 360 degrees instant targeting.   

[Ferdinand_Max]

2 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

I wanted to add one more piece of advice that may or may not apply, depending on if you yourself play Subs or not.

 

Think about how you would think if you were in the Sub and what the very worst thing the DD you would be facing could do to ruin your day and consider doing that.  It's a simplistic approach, but if you can't think of a definite tactic to go with in the moment, at least it gives you an option your opponent won't like.

 

Good hunting!

 

(Unless I'm in the Sub, of course!)

 

 

I have not yet gotten to playing subs... but if sub gameplay is anything like DD gameplay, the worst thing is getting spotted, and sub can just dive?

2 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Can You provide more information on the particulars? 

For example, Lighting (a British DD) with 5,5 km concealment is able to face spot any Submarine in Game, making her one of the most powerful ASW ships in game.

You Say the Sub has backup, but do You?  An important thing to understand is on those situations, the engagement is a 'spotting' battle; it isn't You but your team mates (support) who deliver damage, You are there to spot the Sub not to directly engage. 

By keeping 'trigger discipline' You 'disable' dolphining as the Sub will only be able to spot You on Surface, a situation where You Will spot him back... The defining factor is who of You has the Best support and who can mitigated damage better, as neither of You can deliver direct damage on the other (the Sub because simply can't; the DD because losing concealment on gun bloom and thus becoming able to be spotted from Periscope)  

As a DD You have the option to use your guns on the Sub and deliver some damage, as long as you understand when the Sub goes down to Periscope you'll remain spotted. In that case You can break LoS and go dark using smoke... British ninja smoke is excellent for that.

Essentially, scenario is that I enter the cap and I do spot the sub. But the sub then just either sits there and dives as I approach (letting his teammates farm damage for these few seconds), or I turn around and abandon the cap to avoid getting farmed. In order to stop being spotted and attacked, the only thing I can do is turn tail and deploy smoke, which basically prevents me from doing what a destroyer is supposed to be doing (spotting) and I can still be farmed inside the smoke unless I give up contesting the cap alltogether to escape.

The only thing I can do is hope I have good teammates in ASW aircraft range, but that is an issue as well because, playing other ships I noticed that most submarines have torpedo range significantly greater than ASW aircraft range. And if the enemy destroyer is there as well, again - I either have to abandon "trigger discipline" and engage him (something I am used to doing as I played mostly gunboat DDs on my old account) or just run away and break contact.

As you said, option to use guns on sub is there, but that only helps for a few seconds at most and I can't do it if sub has halfway decent teammates.

So I guess one way or another, when faced by sub, best option is to simply deploy smoke and bravely run away?

1 hour ago, SoshiSone said:

^^^This^^^

Support ships can put a lot of surface fire on a spotted DD and a lot of ASW drops on a spotted sub.  SUPPORT is key.  As a BB player, if a sub is spotted (even just a ping spot) in range, I'm dropping ASW.  Once you get good at it, the switch from whatever you're doing at the moment to putting down a drop is only a few seconds of time.  Target.  Assess (predict).  Drop.  Then back to doing whatever you were doing.  Unlike targeting DDs (where if your turrets aren't positioned correctly, you can't even get a shot) ASW is 360 degrees instant targeting.   

Yeah... subs are about the only reason I'm considering becoming a BB main...

[Wolfswetpaws]

46 minutes ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

and bravely run away?

While bravely calling for support.  🙂 

It's a bit of a dance. 
Getting spotted, evading the incoming ordnance, re-establishing spotting later, gaining a more advantageous position, and etcetera.
With a team that supports you well enough, the opposing stealthy ships can be sunk quickly. 
And then you are more able to spot and set-up your own attacks.
Of course, we both know that if the opposing team does the dance better, things may look grim for the heroic protagonist.  🙂 

[Wolfswetpaws]

Comprehensive Submarine Guide (And Fighting them) in World of Warships

 
Comprehensive UPDATE to the Submarine Guide in World of Warships

 
 

[Jakob Knight]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

I have not yet gotten to playing subs... but if sub gameplay is anything like DD gameplay, the worst thing is getting spotted, and sub can just dive?

 

 

Yes and no.

 

A Sub is even more dependent upon not getting spotted.  A DD that is spotted can wiggle around to throw off shots and travels at a high rate of speed.  The shots at a DD have to hit the DD to do damage, and the DD usually has the option to lay a smoke screen that not only allows it to keep it's speed but can be used to aid allied ships as well.  So a DD that is spotted generally has a fair chance of survival or getting close enough to drop point-blank torpedoes on its opponent.

 

By contrast, a Sub is subject to area-effect weapons with 360 degree firing arcs or even more damaging rear-launched depth charges.  The Sub loses a lot of its spotting ability while at periscope depth, and fully submerged is almost totally dependent upon its teammates to spot for it.  Its one surface spotting mechanic when fully submerged is a flash cube imager that is like radar that gives a single split-second image of everything in range before going on cool down.  A Sub cannot improve its base concealment, and it's weapons when not surfaced are limited to in front and behind it.  Full submerging engages a usually-slower speed for the Sub, and a timer for how long it can remain submerged.  

 

What this means is that if you are in a DD with good concealment, you will likely spot each other at the same time.  The Sub has little choice but to submerge or take direct fire as well as depth charges attacks.  It will take a few seconds for it to reach periscope depth, which allows it to still run with its surface speed but begins ticking the charge meter down and drops its ability to spot surface units to their air visibility (about 2.5 km for most DDs).  As the Sub itself will be automatically spotted at 2 km and it's torpedoes become very light weapons at 3, the Sub will likely go full submerge rather than try to face a DD at Periscope Depth.  Any DD with Hydro will strip the Sub of its one chance to escape detection if it does try.

 

So, if you spot each other with the Sub coming at you, they will likely launch their torpedoes and hope something hits before diving as deep as they can and turning, gambling you won't spot them or guess which way they went.  If you spot the Sub with it able to turn away, it will go to Periscope Depth and try to evade you because full submergence means slowing down with a DD already too close.  A Sub may stay on the surface if it has support fire available or it needs to keep spotting you, but that's a choice that weighs in its own suicide vrs team advantages.  

 

Either way, submerging is going to blind them about as much as you and slow them down.  Like dropping smoke, it has to be weighed against the disadvantages it imposes.  It may be better to just turn and run on the surface, especially if either the Sub's dive timer is low or it knows doing so will likely be suicide anyway and it might as well fight being able to see its target.

 

Sorry for the long text, but trying to describe how complex Sub decision making about diving can be to someone who hasn't driven one isn't a quick post, and I want to describe it accurately.

 

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 05:38 PM by Jakob Knight

[ArIskandir]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

So I guess one way or another, when faced by sub, best option is to simply deploy smoke and bravely run away?

Not really, just understand it is a team effort, you NEED team support in order to win a 'spotting battle'... of course you won't always have it, so the logical course of action in such cases is of course turn tail and disengage. This is not an exclusive ASW thing but the common situation when you face more powerful enemy DDs... when you can't outgun the enemy DD you require team help in order to level the battle. it's the same principle against Subs.

When you have superior and effective support, there's a good reason to keep the Submarine spotted even if enduring some return fire... the Sub will take more damage than you, for a DD usually it is easier to dodge incoming shells than for a spotted Sub to dodge shells+ASW. 

Finally if you are a gunboat DD, being spotted shouldn't be a problem because you are expected to be spotted anyway. You can shoot the Sub on sight and even shoot the ping markers. 

Two examples:

The Concealment way, a.k.a. Spotting battle

Notice how the Sub walks away with a third of its HP gone (most not of my doing but thanks to my spotting) while I get away with my HP almost intact and the Cap.

 

The Gunboat way, a.k.a. the Sub can suck my elbow, I don't care being spotted anyway

Notice how the Sub is just another minor annoyance, you do your thing as usual and eventually there'll be windows of opportunity to damage the Sub. 

[Ferdinand_Max]

12 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Finally if you are a gunboat DD, being spotted shouldn't be a problem because you are expected to be spotted anyway. You can shoot the Sub on sight and even shoot the ping markers. 

 

When I am in a gunboat DD facing an enemy DD, I usually rely on either killing the enemy DD quickly or forcing him away from the cap in order to go undetected. If I can't, I find an island in a cap or else just wait for him to make a mistake - and said mistake usually involves him smoking up and getting torpedoed.

Still, @Wolfswetpaws @ArIskandir @Jakob Knight thanks. Guess it's practice time now.