How do you deal with dolphining

[Ferdinand_Max]

OK, so I encountered submarines recently. Submarines by themselves are not that much of a threat. Issue is, when I play a destroyer, I can deal with being spotted by enemy destroyer by pushing him away, or luring him towards my team. But submarine doesn't run away - it simply submerges. So if I am spotted by a submarine, I have two choices:

1) run away

2) open fire and thus reveal my location even after submarine has submerged

And sub that was forced to submerge will be back on surface two seconds later, again spotting.

So what to do?

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

31 minutes ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

OK, so I encountered submarines recently. Submarines by themselves are not that much of a threat. Issue is, when I play a destroyer, I can deal with being spotted by enemy destroyer by pushing him away, or luring him towards my team. But submarine doesn't run away - it simply submerges. So if I am spotted by a submarine, I have two choices:

1) run away

2) open fire and thus reveal my location even after submarine has submerged

And sub that was forced to submerge will be back on surface two seconds later, again spotting.

So what to do?

Run away.

It's not rocket science.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

33 minutes ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

So what to do?

Weigh up the risk of opening fire against the risk of being fired upon, and shoot if you possibly can. 

Simultaneously, call for fire or ASW airstrike from team-mates.

[Verblonde]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

So what to do?

1. Avoid modes where there are too many submarines.
2. If you meet one in Coop, spotting matters far less, so carry on as you would do normally i.e. prioritise targets based on threat/missions etc.
3. If you meet one in Ranked, it's a mixture of the last two posts, depending on in-game situation. No submarine has (so far) a healing potion, so any damage you do can't be healed; my usual approach in a DD is - if possible - knock a chunk off the underwater w4nker, and then go dark whilst running away (smoke/islands are your friends if available).

[thornzero]

Radio location is helpful if your DDs have substantial captains on them. I have seen radio location turn off if there is only a sub left at max depth. 

[Admiral_Karasu]

I'm still trying to figure out where the dolphins come in. 🐬

[ArIskandir]

11 hours ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

So if I am spotted by a submarine, I have two choices:

1) run away

2) open fire and thus reveal my location even after submarine has submerged

And sub that was forced to submerge will be back on surface two seconds later, again spotting.

So what to do?

There's no straight simple answer. You need to consider at least 3 data points: 

1- How is your Concealment relative to the Sub? Is it positive (You have on par or better Concealment than the Sub) or negative (the Sub outspot You on Surface).  

2- How well supported is the Sub and how much support do You have. 

3- What's your current objective and how the Sub relates to that. 

@Ferdinand_Max

1- Concealment:

If you have 'negative' Concealment (the Sub outspots you), you must understand most likely you'll never be able to 'surprise' the Sub so there's no point in actively chasing it. Many times this situation apply to gunboat DDs, so it isn't a big deal as you are also expected to be outspotted by other DDs. Proceed as normal and 'ignore' the Sub, the only consideration is to reserve your DCP for when getting dangerous pings on you and incoming torps, also account for the cooldown of your DCP... if you want to stay alive, stay dark until your DCP reloads before reengaging. Tip: shoot the ping marker if you lose nothing by being spotted... there's a very good chance you'll 'splash' the Sub and cause an oil spill/fire that would lead to more damage for the Sub; it is also a very strong 'psichological warfare' tool if every time the Sub pings it risk a salvo on its forehead.

If you have 'positive' Concealment (you can face spot the Sub) there's a lot of options open to you depending on the situation. When both you and the Sub are spotted (and parity of support for both of you), it is usually much more dangerous for the Sub, she is far more vulnerable to area damage, has limited DCP and usually less mobility and HP than you. On parity, just spotting the Sub is an advantage to your team, you are not required to fire just spot, but you can do it if the situation is low risk/favorable to you. Just understand how the spotting mechanic works: When you shoot, your Concealment blooms up to your firing range, if the Sub goes to periscope it will be able to keep you spotted while you'll won't spot it back, so be careful as you'll lose your Concealment advantage while the gun bloom is in effect.

2- Support:

This is pretty evident and normal procedure for DD vs DD fights, if the Sub is well supported and you risk doing a 'bad HP trade', you shouldn't engage. But if you consider the trade can favor you, you can engage the Sub. Don't worry too much about the 'alpha' you deliver on the Sub, your prime objective is to spot, mark (proc an oil spill) and apply DoT on the Sub. Don't be hasty on pursuing a fleeing Sub; Subs have limited DCP and can't really sustain attrition... you can, be patient and engage on your terms.

3- Objectives: 

You need to priorize your objectives, engaging a Sub is usually at the bottom of your list as there are more important things to do. ASW is opportunistic, something you do when the situation is convenient and 'presents itself'. Don't waste time chasing Subs, Subs must work hard to be 'relevant' to the game and in order to do so they are forced to operate on certain areas, use that to your advantage. Killing a Sub must only be a priority when they have 'infiltrated' your 'zone' and present a severe risk for critical pieces of your team, like Cruisers and BBs holding critical locations. Most common scenario will be: Do as you usually would and only mind the Sub when the opportunity presents or late match when there's nothing better to do. 

Edited Wednesday at 11:03 PM by ArIskandir

[Jakeshuffle]

I very, very rarely open fire on submarines right away when I am in a DD. I would much rather my teammates spam ASW and I get spotted just a few temporary times than everyone being able to see me for however many seconds after firing the guns.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

2 hours ago, Verblonde said:

No submarine has (so far) a healing potion

U-4501 has a heal, but it can only be used on the surface.

[Wolfswetpaws]

4 hours ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

OK, so I encountered submarines recently. Submarines by themselves are not that much of a threat. Issue is, when I play a destroyer, I can deal with being spotted by enemy destroyer by pushing him away, or luring him towards my team. But submarine doesn't run away - it simply submerges. So if I am spotted by a submarine, I have two choices:

1) run away

2) open fire and thus reveal my location even after submarine has submerged

And sub that was forced to submerge will be back on surface two seconds later, again spotting.

So what to do?

If you would be fired upon by multiple red-team ships by being spotted, then running away is a sensible option.
Reposition for your own advantage.
(Ideally, especially in the early moments of the game, one would prefer to have team-mates available to focus fire upon targets a DD detects.
Sink one target quickly, and then sink the next, and etcetera & etcetera.
If one team can quickly eliminate the other team's DD's and Submarines in the early part of a battle, then the "vision game" becomes controlled by the team with the stealthy units still afloat.
But, "Ideally" doesn't always happen.)

If alone with the submarine, and having spotted each other while both on the surface... well, let's just say that I'd be inclined to close the distance and attack while remaining able to maneuver and attempting to get into a place where they cannot aim their torpedoes at me.
So, I'd close the distance, and try to get to their port or starboard side.
I know that my "roll-off" depth-charges are more powerful and have a larger blast-radius than Depth-charge Air-strikes.  So, "close" is often "good enough".
My guns are more powerful and more numerous than a Submarine's deck-gun (if they even have one).
If I am within 3 km of a submarine, then its torpedoes won't arm to full potency.  So, closer is better, from my point of view as a DD player.
Pings, by themselves, do no damage.  And, pings help me locate the submarine.
I can analyze the terrain and anticipate where the submarine may attempt to go, according to their situation.
If I observed that they're low on dive-time, then I definitely want to exhaust their remaining supply and force them to surface on my terms.  🙂 

But, perhaps that's just me, eh?  🙂 
 

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

I'm still trying to figure out where the dolphins come in. 🐬

It was vague, on *porpoise*.

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

There's no straight simple answer. You need to consider at least 3 data points: 

1- How is your Concealment relative to the Sub? Is it positive (You have on par or better Concealment than the Sub) or negative (the Sub outspot You on Surface).  

2- How well supported is the Sub and how much support do You have. 

3- What's your currently objective and how the Sub relates to that. 

I'll edit the post later with the detailed info and ping You when done

👍

1 hour ago, Jakeshuffle said:

I very, very rarely open fire on submarines right away when I am in a DD. I would much rather my teammates spam ASW and I get spotted just a few temporary times than everyone being able to see me for however many seconds after firing the guns.

👍

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

4 hours ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

OK, so I encountered submarines recently. Submarines by themselves are not that much of a threat. Issue is, when I play a destroyer, I can deal with being spotted by enemy destroyer by pushing him away, or luring him towards my team. But submarine doesn't run away - it simply submerges. So if I am spotted by a submarine, I have two choices:

1) run away

2) open fire and thus reveal my location even after submarine has submerged

And sub that was forced to submerge will be back on surface two seconds later, again spotting.

So what to do?

My tip is always try and avoid subs in DDs, its worth it going for B cap instead then trying to achieve anything in a cap where there is an enemy sub. Dolpheing is a strong tactic for Subs Vs enemy DDs since you will exhaust his HP and DCPs. This usually happen early game when first spotting accurs so BBs are still to far away to help with ASW. After first engagment sub will dive after pinged you, to periscope or 30 meters depending if you have any back up at all. You just used youre first DCP from the first damage taken. He will se you DCP since his "Torps has lost their target" so he re-surface for just a few seconds to spot and ping you for his team and also perma-ping you and launch torps, and rinse and repeat.

  

3 hours ago, thornzero said:

Radio location is helpful if your DDs have substantial captains on them. I have seen radio location turn off if there is only a sub left at max depth. 

I warn players to depend on RPF when it comes to Subs since you will only get target on him if hes on surface or periscope. So sometimes RPF will switch around 360 like if youre on the north pole and it could be hard to determent if the RPF is still the sub or any other right now undetected enemy ship, like lets say a Vampire II or a Annapolis.

I use RPF on DD killing DDs like for instance Vampire II. But I would never try and chase a sub with it, just a waste of time, you have bigger and better fish to fry.

[Verblonde]

1 hour ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

U-4501 has a heal, but it can only be used on the surface.

Blimey - I missed that! Apparently, I've had that particular boat since October. Shows how often I play the thing...

[Aethervox]

4 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

trying to figure out where the dolphins come in. 🐬

Well, the surfacing, submerging is kinda 'dolphin-like' describing Subs movement.

[Col_NASTY]

7 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

I'm still trying to figure out where the dolphins come in. 🐬

The term , taken from many FPS games is actually Porpoising.

just popping up and down rapidly over and over.

In a FPS COD/BF it was a major exploit that made you nearly impossible to shoot.

They took forever to fix it.

In Subs it is aggravating advantage that keeps them safe from attacks from DDS

Mind you DDs were the natural enemies of Subs but WG did away with that.

[Lord_Slayer]

11 hours ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

OK, so I encountered submarines recently. Submarines by themselves are not that much of a threat. Issue is, when I play a destroyer, I can deal with being spotted by enemy destroyer by pushing him away, or luring him towards my team. But submarine doesn't run away - it simply submerges. So if I am spotted by a submarine, I have two choices:

1) run away

2) open fire and thus reveal my location even after submarine has submerged

And sub that was forced to submerge will be back on surface two seconds later, again spotting.

So what to do?

 

10 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Run away.

^ this is always an option


Depending on the range to the sub, you as a DD can potentially move to where you think it will be and depth charge the area. Sub do not move that fast under water compared to a DD. The Sub's hydro with only 'spot' you once and it won't be a hard lock.

A sub at periscope depth can still be shot with guns. While not ideal in your situation, sometimes you have to bit the bullet and treat it like the DD you are trying to lure and shoot it.

[xamdam]

I thought this would be a thread about Schnell Bootes!

[Pugilistic]

Destroyers are problematic as ASW platforms in WoWS . Other ship types have effective ASW that doesnt impair their survivability. This speaks to the brilliance of the submarine implementation. 

[majmac]

17 hours ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

OK, so I encountered submarines recently. Submarines by themselves are not that much of a threat. Issue is, when I play a destroyer, I can deal with being spotted by enemy destroyer by pushing him away, or luring him towards my team. But submarine doesn't run away - it simply submerges. So if I am spotted by a submarine, I have two choices:

1) run away

2) open fire and thus reveal my location even after submarine has submerged

And sub that was forced to submerge will be back on surface two seconds later, again spotting.

So what to do?

The bot SSs in Co-Op do this, but in Randoms I have not experienced this behaviour from a human SS driver.

[Jakob Knight]

I would say treat them as you would another DD.  Can you close on them and force the issue, or is the situation such that you want to retreat until a better engagement situation is present?

 

With Subs currently, a good number of DDs have superior speed, concealment, and spotting ability of enemy ships.  A DD also doesn't have a 3-km deadzone on its weapons.  With these advantages, engaging them is actually alot safer than going to close encounters with another DD.  Same considerations apply, but within 3 KM, the DD has all the advantages.  And since any spotting of a Sub by a DD means being pretty close already, getting into that 3 km zone doesn't take long at all.

 

Remember that the greatest weapon a Sub can have is the conviction by many that they can't beat it.  Find where their weaknesses are and play there.  To the issue of porpoising, remember that if you can't see them because of that, they can't see you as a DD.  Use that blindness against them like you would a DD that smokes up to break contact, with the knowledge that a Sub that submerges loses speed (with only two exceptions, both T10s, one of which pays for it by being slower than a USN standard BB when not fully submerged).  Also remember that, like another DD, that commander is going to do everything in their power to win the fight too by trying to avoid giving you their weakness, so don't expect an easy answer any more than you would expect one for an opponent trying to sink your DD.  

[Itwastuesday]

Firing is almost always incorrect. There is the option of playing 'chicken', drive at them and see if they flinch. 

The besy option is to report them, alt+f4 and send packets of bullshit to wg headquarters. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, Itwastuesday said:

Firing is almost always incorrect. There is the option of playing 'chicken', drive at them and see if they flinch. 

The besy option is to report them, alt+f4 and send packets of bullshit to wg headquarters. 

Excuse me for a moment, while I check on my inventory of ramming flags which can be hoisted on my Submarines.  😉 

[Jakob Knight]

2 hours ago, Itwastuesday said:

 

The besy option is to report them, alt+f4 and send packets of bullshit to wg headquarters. 

 

Well, that will get you banned from the game for abusing the reporting system, which means it won't be a problem for you, so i suppose that's a solution of a sort.  I'm not sure I would call it the best option, though, as simply not playing the game for a while has the same effect without the negatives on returning later on.

 

[Silence_CN]

On 6/26/2024 at 1:17 PM, Ferdinand_Max said:

So what to do?

You said you were playing DD.
Question is "what kind of DD" ?
For, if you have hydro, it's easy to come close to a sub and nade  this thing till it sinks.
Remember also that their torps do not arm if you're too close.

This said, I admit I am a bit agressive towards subs when I am in a DD. The main goal remaining the same : get rid of a spotter/potential threat for the team.

I must also addmit it does not work all the time.  😛 

Honnestly, I go and chase subs most of the time. Whether you like it or not, they are always a threat. My favourite trick being chasing them with a BB  and ASW planes. 😛 
(and yes : it works...)

Edited Thursday at 06:22 PM by Silence_CN