People not understanding the basics of the game

[Ferdinand_Max]

OK, so replay:

20240626_120834_PBSD105-Acasta_05_Ring.wowsreplay

Basically, I played Acasta. OK game, nothing special... I scouted, capped, engaged enemy destroyers, had fun and we won - were winning the entire game IIRC, though the match was actually extremely even from the start to the end.

Anyway, by the end there were three players left - me, friendly battleship and enemy battleship. We were leading in points, had three caps to his one... and then the friendly BB player began demanding that I torpedo the enemy BB. Even after I explained him that a) there is no way for me to do so safely as my torpedoes are shorter-ranged than my concealment distance and b) there was absolutely no need to take the risk as we are winning. So I told him to simply pull back, that we are going to run down the clock and take the time / points win.

Guy proceeded to call me names, insist that I attack a full health enemy BB, and when I refused he engaged the guy himself and got himself killed. I saw clearly that he had no clue what he was doing - neither of them did, they were basically circling each other while showing full broadside.

Now, what he did is not what gets my goat. He was probably a new player, so yeah, learning by doing... frak, when I started the game on my old account, I had 20-some percent win rate! No shame in being new. But what irritated me so much that I had to vent here was guys refusal to learn. He clearly did not understand the purpose and effect of capture areas, of capture / team points, of timer at the top... in other words he had no idea how to win the game beyond "kill every last player on the enemy team". But when I tried to explain, he just shut down, accused me of not knowing how to play, called me an idiot, and then went and died completely pointlessly.

So is this just idiots being idiots, or the game really does such a bad job of teaching new players the basics?

[desmo_2]

A lot of people today simply refuse to learn.  The age of "work hard so you can be successful" is dying...a symptom of too much easy living for too long.

[thornzero]

I watched the replay mostly to see some talented DD work. I am no expert but this is just some thoughts.

Tier 5 is not advanced and easy to get to, therefore the players are going to make mistakes and if you run a mm you will see how many inexperienced people there are.

It also was straight T5 with 5o% bots which means you can play aggressively at the beginning which you sort of did.

But what troubles me is the points were not in your favour? Am I missing something? From over the 1o minute mark until the end, Green was down by like 2-3oo points?

You were at full health and you had a couple opportunities to ambush the BB, if he's coming at you you can fire a little longer beyond your torp range as he moves forward. Then pop smoke on your way out. Or you could have yolo'd him with full health, sent a stream of torps and popped smoke on the way out.

Either way, a win is a win and green BB wasn't too salty until the very end. But I am wondering what you were seeing with the points or if I missed something.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

WG prefers new and ignorant players because they are more likely to be low value items for high prices.

There is no incentive for WG to actually teach people the game.

So new players are deliberately not taught how to get better, because that would harm the profit margins.

Edited Wednesday at 12:27 PM by Daniel_Allan_Clark

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

18 minutes ago, thornzero said:

I watched the replay mostly to see some talented DD work. I am no expert but this is just some thoughts.

Tier 5 is not advanced and easy to get to, therefore the players are going to make mistakes and if you run a mm you will see how many inexperienced people there are.

It also was straight T5 with 5o% bots which means you can play aggressively at the beginning which you sort of did.

But what troubles me is the points were not in your favour? Am I missing something? From over the 1o minute mark until the end, Green was down by like 2-3oo points?

You were at full health and you had a couple opportunities to ambush the BB, if he's coming at you you can fire a little longer beyond your torp range as he moves forward. Then pop smoke on your way out. Or you could have yolo'd him with full health, sent a stream of torps and popped smoke on the way out.

Either way, a win is a win and green BB wasn't too salty until the very end. But I am wondering what you were seeing with the points or if I missed something.

Might be the replay bug. Sometimes it shows the wrong team as red in the score box.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

18 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

new and ignorant players

Most players are ignorant when new.  Did you walk into Kindergarten knowing how to do integral calculus?

The difference lies in how the player themselves chooses to improve. Or not.

[thornzero]

28 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Might be the replay bug. Sometimes it shows the wrong team as red in the score box.

Imagine that. Ok.

[Admiral_Karasu]

Throwing the battle when the players get greedy isn't actually anything new to WoWS.

[Justin_Simpleton]

50 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

WG prefers new and ignorant players because they are more likely to be low value items for high prices.

There is no incentive for WG to actually teach people the game.

So new players are deliberately not taught how to get better, because that would harm the profit margins.

I see WG as TRYING to teach new players because there has been a lot of improvement over the five years I've been playing.  However, I don't think WG knows how to teach.

It takes a lot of time to learn this game.  There is no book that tells you everything you need to know; the information is scattered over many websites and platforms. 

It also takes time to actually apply what you learn in the proper sequence over the course of thousands of battles.  There is a lot of trial and error to go through.  Include in that time reviewing the 20 min. battles to better learn from mistakes and successes.

So, WG is stuck with the dilemma of promoting a game as fun and exciting while not scaring off new players with the truth about what is takes to actually get to the point of fun and exciting as advertised.  Meanwhile, the fun and excitement is ebbing away for those who put in the time and effort because new players haven't yet realized that is what's needed.  Also, there are not enough players to effectively implement skill-based matches if that was truly possible. 

 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

9 minutes ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

I see WG as TRYING to teach new players because there has been a lot of improvement over the five years I've been playing.  However, I don't think WG knows how to teach.

It takes a lot of time to learn this game.  There is no book that tells you everything you need to know; the information is scattered over many websites and platforms. 

It also takes time to actually apply what you learn in the proper sequence over the course of thousands of battles.  There is a lot of trial and error to go through.  Include in that time reviewing the 20 min. battles to better learn from mistakes and successes.

So, WG is stuck with the dilemma of promoting a game as fun and exciting while not scaring off new players with the truth about what is takes to actually get to the point of fun and exciting as advertised.  Meanwhile, the fun and excitement is ebbing away for those who put in the time and effort because new players haven't yet realized that is what's needed.  Also, there are not enough players to effectively implement skill-based matches if that was truly possible. 

 

Given how people who have put the time in to teach newcomers how game mechanics actually work have been treated by WG staff...I am fairly certain that WG does not want people learning the game.

Watching the resistance by WG staff to the AA analysis model from LWM, and the WG staff allowing outright harassment and trolling of people teaching how AA bubbles actually worked was eye opening in terms of just how far WG was willing to go to keep people in the dark.

[Justin_Simpleton]

5 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Given how people who have put the time in to teach newcomers how game mechanics actually work have been treated by WG staff...I am fairly certain that WG does not want people learning the game.

Watching the resistance by WG staff to the AA analysis model from LWM, and the WG staff allowing outright harassment and trolling of people teaching how AA bubbles actually worked was eye opening in terms of just how far WG was willing to go to keep people in the dark.

"Enough with the negative vibes".  Seriously though, I agree that these things could be seem as deliberate, but I think it's rather growing pains where WG started with exuberant and dedicated players and realized this base of players will be hard to satisfy regarding game development while they are unaware of the challenges of bringing in new players who are less exuberant and dedicated.  It's a long learning process fraught with mistakes and human beings.

[Frostbow]

2 hours ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

So is this just idiots being idiots, or the game really does such a bad job of teaching new players the basics?

Both. Notice the absence of a decent hand holding mission for new players. What we get instead are 'tutorials' designed to push players to move up even if they haven't even mastered the basics such as concealment, angling, ammo selection, capturing areas, damage, etc. Notice also how the new player is given the keys to the armory and high tier ships even if they have not the slightest idea what it is like in Tier IX and beyond. It is all about the money.

[Frostbow]

35 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I am fairly certain that WG does not want people learning the game.

I remember that priceless golden moment when two clowns claim submarine shotgunning is not to be worried about, only to be shotgunned themselves by an enemy submarine live on official stream.

[Frostbow]

50 minutes ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

However, I don't think WG knows how to teach.

In fairness to Wargaming, they launched yesterday a new dedicated section that feature a 'definitive' guide.

https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/general-news/the-definitive-wows-guide/

But I am afraid it is not enough.

WG should create a set of immersive hand holding missions for new players that would literally show the player what angling is, how and where to hit enemy citadels, how to manage their ship's concealment, etc. 

[Wulf_Ace]

2 hours ago, thornzero said:

 

You were at full health and you had a couple opportunities to ambush the BB, if he's coming at you you can fire a little longer beyond your torp range as he moves forward. Then pop smoke on your way out. Or you could have yolo'd him with full health, sent a stream of torps and popped smoke on the way out.

 

This is good advice, it seems he also lacks basic understandment of concealment

[Justin_Simpleton]

9 minutes ago, Frostbow said:

WG should create a set of immersive hand holding missions for new players that would literally show the player what angling is, how and where to hit enemy citadels, how to manage their ship's concealment, etc. 

I would like to see more emphasis on the when.  When do you expect to be detected, when to use hydro & radar, when to slow down or turn, etc.  When do you consider armor and penetration values, certainly not at game start.

 

[torino2dc]

Folks talk about wanting a more educated player base as if that will make their play experience better. Spoiler alert: it won't. 

The way we know this is because there are formats that exclude inexperienced players: clan battles, tournaments, and (to a certain extent) Gold Ranked. 

When you exclude the bad players, what you get is matches that are essentially 'over' because one cap flipped and you're never going to recapture it from the overlapping babysitter radars. You get matches where one good battleship salvo decides a damage race in the enemy's favor, and the rest is a formality due to Lanchester's Square Law. You have matches that are decided by the opening DD damage trades, by one poorly timed radar, one ship slightly mispositioned against an island. As the player skill increases, the error margins get thinner and thinner. 

Take it from someone who has lived the sweaty WoWS life for many years: player ineptitude is your friend. Embrace it. Learn to exploit it whenever possible. It will work in your favor far more often than against you. 

[OT2_2]

First of all, everyone has the right to be new to something, of course also to WoW. Secondly it is well known that TV and perhaps also TVI are the playground for beginners and that's totally fine with me. Engaging in randoms in TV does literally mean you fight together or against illiterates in terms of WoW. Nothing and anything can be expected. More skilled players should choose those Tiers from TVII upwards. As @Frostbow so aptly noted is the lack of customized missions / ops for newbies a main issue. Everywhere they go those newbies get flamed, particuarly in all P v P modes but also ops. That's frustrating for all those involved and surely doesn't help for a better learning curve of newbies. Customized missions for newbies only, where they can first hand learn to master the different types of warships and mechnics.  There must be a strong incentive to accept such an offer. 

Edited Wednesday at 02:28 PM by OT2_2

[Aethervox]

2 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Kindergarten

Are you referring to co-op play? Not really much to learn there, it's so easy, imho.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

6 minutes ago, torino2dc said:

Folks talk about wanting a more educated player base as if that will make their play experience better. Spoiler alert: it won't. 

It absolutely will for some people. 'Better' is in the eye of the beholder.

Do not fall for the WG blindness in assuming your view is the only view when dealing with customers.

8 minutes ago, torino2dc said:

When you exclude the bad players, what you get is matches that are essentially 'over' because one cap flipped and you're never going to recapture it from the overlapping babysitter radars. You get matches where one good battleship salvo decides a damage race in the enemy's favor, and the rest is a formality due to Lanchester's Square Law. You have matches that are decided by the opening DD damage trades, by one poorly timed radar, one ship slightly mispositioned against an island. As the player skill increases, the error margins get thinner and thinner. 

This is true regardless of skill level. It is a fundamental flaw in the game design...and one for which there are plenty of known ways to address it...but WG insists on only using internal ideas.

9 minutes ago, torino2dc said:

Take it from someone who has lived the sweaty WoWS life for many years: player ineptitude is your friend. Embrace it. Learn to exploit it whenever possible. It will work in your favor far more often than against you. 

Your experience is only relevant to your expectations of what the game should be.

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 hours ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

So is this just idiots being idiots, or the game really does such a bad job of teaching new players the basics?

The information is available, in the Wiki pages and in the "How to" series of videos on the Official World of Warships youtube channel.

I'm of the opinion that some are more inclined to make an effort to learn than others.

Sounds like you played well, yourself.  🙂 

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Throwing the battle when the players get greedy isn't actually anything new to WoWS.

Indeed.
The phrases "Win harder!" and "Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory!" come to my mind.  😉 

[torino2dc]

8 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

It absolutely will for some people. 'Better' is in the eye of the beholder.

Rather than just saying "nuh-uh" it might be helpful to support your position with some examples. 

9 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

This is true regardless of skill level. It is a fundamental flaw in the game design...and one for which there are plenty of known ways to address it...but WG insists on only using internal ideas.

Please explain how the margins for error getting thinner with increasing player skill is a fundamental flaw in the game design. 

Also please list some of these ideas that supposedly exist to address it that WG has been ignoring.

12 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Your experience is only relevant to your expectations of what the game should be.

Please explain why my experience is not relevant to the discussion at hand.

[Wolfswetpaws]

53 minutes ago, Frostbow said:

I remember that priceless golden moment when two clowns claim submarine shotgunning is not to be worried about, only to be shotgunned themselves by an enemy submarine live on official stream.

"I don't care who you are.  That's funny, right there." - Larry the Cable Guy.

[ArIskandir]

22 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

It absolutely will for some people. 'Better' is in the eye of the beholder.

Do not fall for the WG blindness in assuming your view is the only view when dealing with customers.

The option exist for those who crave 'better' gameplay.

If every player were 'good and competent', every match would be a very sweaty affair, it would lead to 'exhaustion' very quickly... many times what you want from the game is just chill and relax after a long, hard day. Tryharding is fun, but sometimes you are not in the mood or disposition, the game understands that.

Edited Wednesday at 02:52 PM by ArIskandir