There is something humorously broken when a DD cant catch a submerged sub!

[ArIskandir]

24 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

I'm amazed that you think a class which relies on concealment should be constantly revealing its position with blindfires. Perhaps I would in a ship like Marceau or Kléber, certainly not any "normal" destroyer. You do not have the alpha to do any meaningful amount of damage and will almost certainly draw the fire of the submarine's supporting teammates. You can't even be confident in doing damage, since a submarine can ping from operating depth or shift to operating depth upon taking fire. 

Obviously you must evaluate if breaking Concealment at that moment is in your benefit or not, the point is you have more options beyond the DCs. For any gunboat DD, breaking Concealment is usually not critical and something you are expected to do on a regular basis. Unless you are actively Cap contesting or setting up for a torpedo attack, breaking Concealment may not be critical. Also the point is not the alpha damage you could make to the Sub, but the DoT and Oil spilling any hit may cause, which may lead to further allied Airstrike damage. Subs have limited DCPs and DoT can be a real danger. 

38 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

Your second paragraph is also rather interesting. You acknowledge the lack of counterplay against submarines... as a good thing? 

I never said there was lack of counterplay. I said ASW is a bit passive in nature... much like fishing, there's a lot of waiting and the result is not guaranteed but you can't say fishing is useless. 

44 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

Do people actually get overwhelmed with the amount of actions to take in this game? I spend maybe 40% total of my matches tabbed out between torpedo reloads and positioning because of how slow paced this game is.

Depends. If you play DDs I bet sometimes you must had been tangled in a gunfight, with planes aiming for you and a Sub pinging you... It can be a bit overwhelming to keep track of everything going on at the same time. Even simply navigating can be challenging as you keep track of radar range, surface and air concealment, movement vectors of targets, etc. I find I only have 'spare time' when repositioning once a flank is cleared or such late match scenarios.

[Unlooky]

7 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I disagree.
I feel there's plenty of play/counterplay with Submarines.
I also feel that many people simply do not perceive the nuances and the opportunities.  "Full stop."  😉 

This depends severely on the class and ship. Certain playstyles basically don't care about subs (open water kiting) while others are neigh unplayable with the presence of a submarine (Bow in play/island play.) 

 

Battleships are best suited for countering submarines with their long ASW range and strong alpha, but very few have any ways of actually detecting them and therefore rely on cruiser or submarine spotting or hard read ASW drops. The only battleship I would actively avoid engaging submarines with is Kremlin due to the limited DCPs and predominantly bow in style of play. 

Cruisers are the most varied ranging from absolutely miserable (Nevsky, Jinan, Minotaur) to more than capable of handling themselves (Venezia, Cerberus) but most fall somewhere in between. Of the ships that actually have airstrikes, again, the ships that suffer the most are the bow in cruisers such as Petro, Moskva, or DM.  

Destroyers, however, are universally dogshit in this regard. None have ASW airstrikes, which are mandatory to have any sort of impact in the ASW role. Very few have any detection tools against submarines (which is honestly perplexing given the historical role of DDs.) I've said before in this thread, you cannot spot or depth charge submarines without being out of position. As it stands, without a real way to deal damage to submarines or detect them, DDs have the worst ASW capabilities in the game. 

 

Given the current state of surface interactions with submarines, I'm quite curious to what counterplay you believe exists beyond "permakite in open water and never attempt to go bow in or play for any important positions."

[ArIskandir]

12 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

Destroyers, however, are universally dogshit in this regard. None have ASW airstrikes, which are mandatory to have any sort of impact in the ASW role.

This is wrong at the most fundamental level, the main asset for ASW is Concealment. If your Concealment is good enough to face spot a Sub, that Sub becomes severely impaired. Airstrikes are not necessary at all to counter a Sub, and mostly useless unless you can enforce detection. 

16 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

I've said before in this thread, you cannot spot or depth charge submarines without being out of position.

Implying Subs never overextend or become out of position themselves?  you make it look like every and all Sub you face is a superunicum... on the contrary, it is very easy to make stupid mistakes in Subs

 

[Justin_Simpleton]

17 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

Battleships are best suited for countering submarines with their long ASW range and strong alpha, but very few have any ways of actually detecting them and therefore rely on cruiser or submarine spotting or hard read ASW drops. The only battleship I would actively avoid engaging submarines with is Kremlin due to the limited DCPs and predominantly bow in style of play. 

Any battleship is at a disadvantage fighting subs alone but the Kremlin does as well as any other.  I wish there was a statistic I could show you to back my claim that I frequently sink subs.  I aim behind the ping location with either guns or ASW.  Sometimes you can actually blind fire and hit a sub; done that a few times.  The 4501 subs are still a challenge for me but if you are being chased by one, aim in front of the ping. 

[Unlooky]

9 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

This is wrong at the most fundamental level, the main asset for ASW is Concealment. If your Concealment is good enough to face spot a Sub, that Sub becomes severely impaired. Airstrikes are not necessary at all to counter a Sub, and mostly useless unless you can enforce detection. 

Concealment is meaningless without any supporting threat. Getting close to a submarine is simply insufficient for reasons I've previously listed. You cannot simply close the distance and deploy depth charges because this isn't a 1v1 on Ocean ST armor test. Your concealment is further made irrelevant because of an incredibly stupid consumable by the name of Hydrophone, which operates without regard to concealment. The best way to counter a submarine is by spotting them, and barring that, blind ASW strikes or blindfires to drive them off and deal chip damage. 

 

12 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Implying Subs never overextend or become out of position themselves?  you make it look like every and all Sub you face is a superunicum... on the contrary, it is very easy to make stupid mistakes in Subs

Of course they do and the fact that the vast majority of sub players are turboshitters is the only thing keeping them tolerable. Discussing how to counter bad players is meaningless since 90% of actions taken will likely succeed against them. As soon as you have an even slightly competent submarine player the game just becomes so much more miserable for everyone else involved. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

25 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

This depends severely on the class and ship. Certain playstyles basically don't care about subs (open water kiting) while others are neigh unplayable with the presence of a submarine (Bow in play/island play.) 

 

Battleships are best suited for countering submarines with their long ASW range and strong alpha, but very few have any ways of actually detecting them and therefore rely on cruiser or submarine spotting or hard read ASW drops. The only battleship I would actively avoid engaging submarines with is Kremlin due to the limited DCPs and predominantly bow in style of play. 

Cruisers are the most varied ranging from absolutely miserable (Nevsky, Jinan, Minotaur) to more than capable of handling themselves (Venezia, Cerberus) but most fall somewhere in between. Of the ships that actually have airstrikes, again, the ships that suffer the most are the bow in cruisers such as Petro, Moskva, or DM.  

Destroyers, however, are universally dogshit in this regard. None have ASW airstrikes, which are mandatory to have any sort of impact in the ASW role. Very few have any detection tools against submarines (which is honestly perplexing given the historical role of DDs.) I've said before in this thread, you cannot spot or depth charge submarines without being out of position. As it stands, without a real way to deal damage to submarines or detect them, DDs have the worst ASW capabilities in the game. 

 

Given the current state of surface interactions with submarines, I'm quite curious to what counterplay you believe exists beyond "permakite in open water and never attempt to go bow in or play for any important positions."

I've said for years, since the early testing of Submarines on the Public Test Server, Anti-Submarine-Warfare is a team-effort.  🙂 
And it begins as soon as the match starts.

BB's can shoot at everything that threatens their team's DD's and Cruisers. 
Preferably sinking the threats, but damaging the targets and forcing them to retreat is better than nothing.
Cruisers can support their team's DD's and Submarines, especially if they're supported by BB's.
DD's and Submarines will be doing spotting and capturing and attacking targets of opportunity.  They'll do this much more effectively if they're supported.
CV's provide scouting and spotting (for now, because upcoming changes may trash this capability), and attack targets of high-priority and/or opportunity.

If positioned properly, a group of ships can work together and have a fair chance of making a contribution towards victory.

Hide behind islands or at the back of the map or be too far apart from each other, and the "mutual support" will be tough to accomplish.

"Change my mind."  🙂 
 
 

[Unlooky]

4 minutes ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

Any battleship is at a disadvantage fighting subs alone but the Kremlin does as well as any other.  I wish there was a statistic I could show you to back my claim that I frequently sink subs.  I aim behind the ping location with either guns or ASW.  Sometimes you can actually blind fire and hit a sub; done that a few times.  The 4501 subs are still a challenge for me but if you are being chased by one, aim in front of the ping. 

Disagreed because of the reasons I listed. Limited DCPs means you can't use it nearly as liberally to clear pings. In fact, I can't really justify clearing a ping with a Kremlin DCP unless it's guaranteed to prevent a death. Kremlin's strength lies in her armor scheme, fast DCPs, and overmatching guns, nearly all of which are moot (or in the case of the DCP, an active detriment) against submarines. 

 

Everything else you described is possible in any other BB. In fact, I'd rather use most other BBs for that because they either have more shell volume or superior shells (SAP or larger alpha guns.) 

[Justin_Simpleton]

3 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

Concealment is meaningless without any supporting threat. Getting close to a submarine is simply insufficient for reasons I've previously listed. You cannot simply close the distance and deploy depth charges because this isn't a 1v1 on Ocean ST armor test. Your concealment is further made irrelevant because of an incredibly stupid consumable by the name of Hydrophone, which operates without regard to concealment. The best way to counter a submarine is by spotting them, and barring that, blind ASW strikes or blindfires to drive them off and deal chip damage. 

I've had some success in baiting the sub to an area where my concealment works for me and then depth charge him or make him visible to allied ASW.  Turning a sub back is good, too. 

[Justin_Simpleton]

4 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

Disagreed because of the reasons I listed. Limited DCPs means you can't use it nearly as liberally to clear pings. In fact, I can't really justify clearing a ping with a Kremlin DCP unless it's guaranteed to prevent a death. Kremlin's strength lies in her armor scheme, fast DCPs, and overmatching guns, nearly all of which are moot (or in the case of the DCP, an active detriment) against submarines. 

You are right about sparingly using DCP to clear pings; it should only be used if you are already making a turn otherwise you probably won't doge the torps even if you did use DCP to clear the ping.  Because Kremlin can suck up torpedos, it can distract the sub a good while for allied ships to come help; just pull him away from help.  If you are alone with no help, drag your death out as long as possible. Good luck. 

[Unlooky]

16 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I've said for years, since the early testing of Submarines on the Public Test Server, Anti-Submarine-Warfare is a team-effort.  🙂 
And it begins as soon as the match starts.

BB's can shoot at everything that threatens their team's DD's and Cruisers. 
Preferably sinking the threats, but damaging the targets and forcing them to retreat is better than nothing.
Cruisers can support their team's DD's and Submarines, especially if they're supported by BB's.
DD's and Submarines will be doing spotting and capturing and attacking targets of opportunity.  They'll do this much more effectively if they're supported.
CV's provide scouting and spotting (for now, because upcoming changes may trash this capability), and attack targets of high-priority and/or opportunity.

If positioned properly, a group of ships can work together and have a fair chance of making a contribution towards victory.

Hide behind islands or at the back of the map or be too far apart from each other, and the "mutual support" will be tough to accomplish.

"Change my mind."  🙂 
 
 

The issue with this is that submarines incentivize passive and selfish play. Dodging homing torpedoes is MUCH easier when kiting instead of bow in. Therefore, if you're on a submarine flank, you cannot afford to go bow in under the assumption the submarine will be a shitter who gets nuked 5 minutes in, because if you're wrong, then you're eating 30k in torpedo damage, and likely being forced to game turn in front of the enemy team. 

I don't count on my allied submarine or destroyers to counter their submarine early on. Why should they? I'm just an unknown random, and it's such a massive time investment without a guaranteed payoff when they could be doing much more valuable tasks. 

To reliably counter submarines requires SOME sort of vision utility. Typically this is later in the game when Submarine Surveillance leaves it's preparation time, but an overzealous submarine can be countered by hydro, or a low HP submarine can be caught and killed by radar.

Edited June 25 by Unlooky

[ArIskandir]

20 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

Concealment is meaningless without any supporting threat. Getting close to a submarine is simply insufficient for reasons I've previously listed. You cannot simply close the distance and deploy depth charges because this isn't a 1v1 on Ocean ST armor test. Your concealment is further made irrelevant because of an incredibly stupid consumable by the name of Hydrophone, which operates without regard to concealment. The best way to counter a submarine is by spotting them, and barring that, blind ASW strikes or blindfires to drive them off and deal chip damage. 

Concealment enforces spotting, spotting means damage. You can blindfire Airstrikes as much as You want to no effect (against a good player) because the time to target is too damn long, that's why gunfire is much more effective for blind fire. Yes Sub Hydro is busted and should keep the Sub out of harms way but DDs have RPF which is very good to keep tabs on Subs. Against a good Sub player the result is a stalemate, you can't touch them but they can't touch You, and now with Shotgun ban they are 100% more screwed than You.

[Wolfswetpaws]

10 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

The issue with this is that submarines incentivize passive and selfish play.

On the contrary.  I feel that Submarines encourage teamwork.

[ArIskandir]

21 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

Dodging homing torpedoes is MUCH easier when kiting instead of bow in.

Another common misconception, please read this quick guide:

 

Dodging is MUCH easier when you dive into the torps. 

[clammboy]

42 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I've said for years, since the early testing of Submarines on the Public Test Server, Anti-Submarine-Warfare is a team-effort.  🙂 
And it begins as soon as the match starts.

Nobody wants to do this please we have to worry about frigging subs as soon as the game starts . Team effort that ridiculous we cant get anybody to do anything team oriented. Please stop saying this it's not happing.

[pepe_trueno]

On 6/23/2024 at 5:40 PM, Titus_Pullo_13 said:

22% of my Jager kills are with guns.

Terrible guns but are useful. 

look what you have done, now i had to take a look at mine 

[Unlooky]

12 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Another common misconception, please read this quick guide:

 

Dodging is MUCH easier when you dive into the torps. 

Let me be more clear then. Dodging homing torpedoes is much safer while kiting since it requires you to travel at full speed and make hard turns. Obviously this is much safer to do while further away from enemy battleships and cruisers. Successfully dodging homing torpedoes while bow in typically leaves you in an extremely bad position, and you either due to enemy fire or the successive homing torpedo salvo. 

On the flip side, dodging by kiting often leaves you out of range of follow up torpedoes or enemy fire. 

Again, in a pure 1v1 this would be correct, but unfortunately submarines exist outside of training rooms. 

 

 

13 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

On the contrary.  I feel that Submarines encourage teamwork.

Are you going to contribute something beyond meaningless overarching single sentences to this discussion? Or should I stop wasting my time replying? 

[Wolfswetpaws]

7 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

13 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

On the contrary.  I feel that Submarines encourage teamwork.

Are you going to contribute something beyond meaningless overarching single sentences to this discussion? Or should I stop wasting my time replying? 

Your failure to grok
is not evidence of my
words lacking meaning

~ a haiku by @Wolfswetpaws

Edited June 25 by Wolfswetpaws

[Unlooky]

Just now, Wolfswetpaws said:

Your failure to grok
is not evidence of my
words lacking meaning

~ a haiku by @Wolfswetpaws

Your words lack meaning when you fail to support them with any statements beyond your assertion.

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 minute ago, Unlooky said:

Your words lack meaning when you fail to support them with any statements beyond your assertion.

[Luke Skywalker]:  "I don't believe it."
[Master Yoda]:  "That is why you fail."

[ArIskandir]

3 hours ago, Unlooky said:

Let me be more clear then. Dodging homing torpedoes is much safer while kiting since it requires you to travel at full speed and make hard turns. Obviously this is much safer to do while further away from enemy battleships and cruisers. Successfully dodging homing torpedoes while bow in typically leaves you in an extremely bad position, and you either due to enemy fire or the successive homing torpedo salvo. 

On the flip side, dodging by kiting often leaves you out of range of follow up torpedoes or enemy fire. 

This is correct.

But You wrote about dodging homing torps being easier while kiting, which as it is phrased is incorrect. 

You meant it is safer to preserve your HP and dodge shells while kiting, which is of course correct.  

Kiting in that Scenario is in function of shellfire, not homing torps. The torps are circumstantial, the determinant factor is the threat of gunfire.

[Unlooky]

9 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

This is correct.

But You wrote about dodging homing torps being easier while kiting, which as it is phrased is incorrect. 

You meant it is safer to preserve your HP and dodge shells while kiting, which is of course correct.  

Kiting in that Scenario is in function of shellfire, not homing torps. The torps are circumstantial, the determinant factor is the threat of gunfire.

Yes. My first statement was incorrect. 

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

22 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I thought we were discussing DD versus Submarine.

Once a Submarine goes to periscope-depth, its perception of other ships will be limited to those ships' aerial detection value.
So, unless the submarine is using a detection consumable, it will be out-spotted by a stealthy DD or spotted simultaneously.
Given the aerial detection values of DD's and Submarines, the detection will happen within the 3 km arming distance of Submarine torpedoes.

A sub should never steam full engine ahead at periscope into red team, and if so he should be using hydro to see what is near, but not even then.

In all my Sub games Im usually on the surface about 80% of the game time (hence my Insane Base XP for spotting pics in other sub threads). Subs, with some skill dont even have to dive to be broken/OP! I usually have full battery mid game and full battery end game.

My take on this is IF you are just an average player (Me and the game considers me just above average) you will use every strength the class you're playing has. In a submarine no one should ever just Yolo in blind (that are those sub players dying in first 3-5 min). Instead you will, just like a DD, push into mutual detection to either enemy DD or sub and see what is coming, you do this in a kiting manor so you dont have to do awkward 180 turn into suiciding red DD. You also do this early, well before any of the red BBs (which are youre biggest threat) comes within ASW range, so most risk you take is probably a half miss from one DD main gun .... at most.

Then when all players (enemy DDs and subs) are presented to you, you work them depending on what strengh, consumables (hydros etc) and conceal they have. This while using youre own good concealment, ability to negate every radar, hydro, plane spotting in the game you spam torps and when its good timing pings upon the red force. Using Sub hydro at any depth you will get a good view of any surface red sub or DD within 7-8(?) km range (depending on the nation of the sub), and since you have limitless of these hydros you spam them pretty much on cooldown. So any attempt from a red DD trying to rush a sub is pretty much worthless, unless the sub player had a stroke or made a HUGE misplay of any kind. Every time red DD gets spotted you ping him forcing him to fear incoming torps or just burn his DCP for no reason. If DD smokes and shoots you use his tracers to ping him and force the same, and if he DCPs you can follow up with sub hydro to "See him" and get a perma ping on him which makes him eat all you're torps and probably die.

If enemy DD try and "chase you" (I tried this myself many times when subs released and I been "chased many times myself in a sub) you just hold any pings or anything that gives away you're location and then just maneuver, do 180 turns, do 90 turns, while spotting the "chasing DDs" with youre hydro and laughing. They spend the majority of the game chasing youre shadow while you are in a completely new location shooting torps at BB. Their hydro is useless unless they just happen to stumble upon you within 2 km, and even IF that happens you probably heading in different directions (if sub player has brain) so even if you have ultra fast reaction and drop ASW he will probably already be outside "Red range" before they blow, and expensive RPF skill is totally useless unless sub decides to go periscope or surface, but even then if you are un-spotted, he has to guess if his RPF is you or any of youre DD teammates, maybe a gun boat DD that he Definitely DONT wanna run into.  

In 2 games I had 2-man DD divs trying to chase me and I was in the U-4501, I actually had to ping them for them to understand I was behind them and then I just switched direction, they both did fook all for 10 min and ended up way down on the loosing rooster. So I was just basically playing with them, and those could have been unicum/superunicum players....

Even CVs that has always been WGs favorite and protected class are foooked by subs. They cant plane spot them while the sub see their planes at all times from 30 min. Subs can trigger 1 min DCP on a CV from way outside CV Aimbot ASW and then just wait out the time to send the homing torps.

Players can play any way they like, but if any of those I play with asks I tell them to just ignore and avoid subs, because if it is a decent player they are on a fools Arend.

 

But then, as I end most my post regarding ships, there is "Balanced by playerbase" in FULL effect in this game, and that is all those sub players you see dead within 3-5 min of the match that has probably not grasped even the basic mechanics about subs or definitely Nothing of the things I mentioned above. So ..... there is always that!

 

Edited June 25 by OldSchoolGaming_Youtube

[ArIskandir]

34 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

If enemy DD try and "chase you" (I tried this myself many times when subs released and I been "chased many times myself in a sub) you just hold any pings or anything that gives away you're location and then just maneuver, do 180 turns, do 90 turns, while spotting the "chasing DDs" with youre hydro and laughing. They spend the majority of the game chasing youre shadow while you are in a completely new location shooting torps at BB. Their hydro is useless unless they just happen to stumble upon you within 2 km, and even IF that happens you probably heading in different directions (if sub player has brain) so even if you have ultra fast reaction and drop ASW he will probably already be outside "Red range" before they blow, and expensive RPF skill is totally useless unless sub decides to go periscope or surface, but even then if you are un-spotted, he has to guess if his RPF is you or any of youre DD teammates, maybe a gun boat DD that he Definitely DONT wanna run into.  

What happens when you face an smart DD Captain with good Submarine experience, he knows the tricks, he knows the tools?... he knows exactly when you will use Hydro, he knows you will assume he's a potato head and set a bogus course to make you feel confident and turn 90 to that 'opening', he knows how to use your cooldown blindspot to approach the place you are 'heading' (because that's the place he would head himself if playing a Sub), he waits for you to peek to persicope to get that sweet RPF ping and he knows a Depth Charge volley at full speed can cover up a lot of space...  

Honestly I love ASW because it is mind vs mind in its purest form, if you know how your enemy thinks you don't need to know where he is because you know where he is going to be. 

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

14 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

What happens when you face an smart DD Captain with good Submarine experience, he knows the tricks, he knows the tools?... he knows exactly when you will use Hydro, he knows you will assume he's a potato head and set a bogus course to make you feel confident and turn 90 to that 'opening', he knows how to use your cooldown blindspot to approach the place you are 'heading' (because that's the place he would head himself if playing a Sub), he waits for you to peek to persicope to get that sweet RPF ping and he knows a Depth Charge volley at full speed can cover up a lot of space...  

Honestly I love ASW because it is mind vs mind in its purest form, if you know how your enemy thinks you don't need to know where he is because you know where he is going to be. 

Aaah ... you mean a psychic DD captain? Yeah those unicorns are hard to counter.

A DD captain that will:

1. Know when you use sub hydro on him even tho thats THE ONLY hydro in the game that doesn't show the people getting hydrod that they are.
2. "Just dodge" any of you're spotting, the spotting of you're allied DDs, allied radar, hydros, CV planes, hybrid planes etc etc etc.
3. Set his "bogus course" in a way that cant be detected by Sub hydro .... for some reason.... even tho it covers 7-9 km
4. Apparently don't have to deal with any of youre team while doing this elaborate zig-zag, bogus courses and still also be able to catch up to you, while you also dont spot him at any time or ping him .... or torp him... 
5. Apparently "knows where you're heading" because all subs go in a B-line towards the closest red BB...? Or all subs players apparently head for the exact same place! Dont maneuver at all .... like ever? (Im pretty decent in subs bet even me has to wait for a ping on surface before I know where the sub is, many drive around like headless chickens).
6. Ever loose the "Sweet RPF ping", because a Sub that periscope Always stays at periscope and apparently also knows its you and not the Vampire II? Or Sherman...

Yup, if you come across THAT Guy you a proper fooked for sure.

 

"Mind Vs Mind", if Im in my Hinden and "I know" the enemy CV is gonna seek shelter behind a very obvious island, does that mean I can hunt and kill him? Or does that still mean I have to jump 40 hoops on the way, hoops like radar, hydro, planes, CVs, DDs, Subs, Yamatos?

"Knowing the tricks" and being experienced in playing another class doesn't mean you just God mode/Wall hack/Aim bot youre way to him and lay a huge Taco Tuesday dump on his head and say its raining.

Flamu, or any other smart/experienced player of this game in a Shimakaze will still die to an average CV player playing a CV, its just in the mechanics of the game and what different strength classes have, just like in the case of Subs and DDs. Subs has all the advantages while DDS just have been crapped on by WG for the last 5 years.

[ArIskandir]

26 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

"Knowing the tricks" and being experienced in playing another class doesn't mean you just God mode/Wall hack/Aim bot youre way to him and lay a huge Taco Tuesday dump on his head and say its raining.

"Knowing the tricks" and two working neurons can make all the difference between finding a proactive solution to a problem or being a hapless victim. Experience and knowledge is fundamental to a good performance, I don't know why you find that amazing. 

26 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

just like in the case of Subs and DDs. Subs has all the advantages while DDS just have been crapped on by WG for the last 5 years.

What exactly are those advantages?   ... I find extremely difficult for a Sub to 'enforce' damage on a DD. Yes it happens and I have done it... if the DD is dumb and/or you surprise her with her pants down (or any of a long list of ifs...). Subs have the hydro, it's an invaluable tool to avoid jumping into a DD... because your life depends on not jumping into a DDs path. These days I don't even bother about Subs, they were a nominal threat back when shotgun was a thing... now they are a sad joke when caught up close... and you say DDs were crapped on? 

 

Edited June 25 by ArIskandir