There is something humorously broken when a DD cant catch a submerged sub!

[Titus_Pullo_13]

In my Jager, I chased a U4501 across the map. Even with turbo boost, I never got close when I had to occasionally dodged shells. Wayyyyy too fast, 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

The game isn't actually balanced for gameplay.

[Wulf_Ace]

U4501 is too fast for anyone to catch her, best not to even try or you will die trying.

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 hours ago, Titus_Pullo_13 said:

In my Jager, I chased a U4501 across the map. Even with turbo boost, I never got close when I had to occasionally dodged shells. Wayyyyy too fast, 

If, for whatever reason or wild circumstance, you happen to start at one end of the map and chase it to the other end of the map, ...
then you'll probably catch it, eventually.
Why? 
Because it will run-out of dive-time and you'll be faster on the surface (assuming you don't sink each other first).

[Admiral_Karasu]

3 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

If, for whatever reason or wild circumstance, you happen to start at one end of the map and chase it to the other end of the map, ...
then you'll probably catch it, eventually.
Why? 
Because it will run-out of dive-time and you'll be faster on the surface (assuming you don't sink each other first).

And assuming the two of them are alone on the map.

[Silence_CN]

U-4501 is nicknamed "the ghost" : you see it at the beginning, in the list of players... and you never even see this thing after that.

[ArIskandir]

14 minutes ago, Silence_CN said:

U-4501 is nicknamed "the ghost" : you see it at the beginning, in the list of players... and you never even see this thing after that.

You kinda do every time it pings. A well played Gato is the real scary ghost

[Titus_Pullo_13]

1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

If, for whatever reason or wild circumstance, you happen to start at one end of the map and chase it to the other end of the map, ...
then you'll probably catch it, eventually.
Why? 
Because it will run-out of dive-time and you'll be faster on the surface (assuming you don't sink each other first).

Jager isnt the best boat to chase with terrible guns. 

[Titus_Pullo_13]

2 hours ago, Wulf_Ace said:

U4501 is too fast for anyone to catch her, best not to even try or you will die trying.

I read the map. Buy me chasing it, I cleared a flank and we won. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

42 minutes ago, Titus_Pullo_13 said:

Jager isnt the best boat to chase with terrible guns. 

Submarine guns, if they even have any guns, aren't exactly known for their potency.
It's actually a hilarious meme if they sink a ship in WOWs.  🙂 

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

4 hours ago, Titus_Pullo_13 said:

In my Jager, I chased a U4501 across the map. Even with turbo boost, I never got close when I had to occasionally dodged shells. Wayyyyy too fast, 

4501´s gimmick is that it is fast underwater. Also quite easy to dodge a chasing DD with sub hydro etc.

 

2 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

If, for whatever reason or wild circumstance, you happen to start at one end of the map and chase it to the other end of the map, ...
then you'll probably catch it, eventually.
Why? 
Because it will run-out of dive-time and you'll be faster on the surface (assuming you don't sink each other first).

The problem is that any sub captain with half a brain will use sub hydro to see where DD is then just do a 90 or 180 degree turn, so DD trying to chase subs will always be led on a Wild goose chase.

I gave up trying to do anything about subs in a DD a long ... long .... long time ago. Just not worth it. DDs are the worst at trying to counter subs and they just die trying.

But we also of course have "Balanced by playerbase" where a Bot playing a sub will get killed the first 2 min even tho he has all the gimmicks in the world to be broken/OP .... because reasons. Thats why you sometime see subs getting killed. Never underestimate "Balanced by playerbase".

Edited June 23 by OldSchoolGaming_Youtube

[Titus_Pullo_13]

14 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Submarine guns, if they even have any guns, aren't exactly known for their potency.
It's actually a hilarious meme if they sink a ship in WOWs.  🙂 

22% of my Jager kills are with guns.

Terrible guns but are useful. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

20 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

2 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

If, for whatever reason or wild circumstance, you happen to start at one end of the map and chase it to the other end of the map, ...
then you'll probably catch it, eventually.
Why? 
Because it will run-out of dive-time and you'll be faster on the surface (assuming you don't sink each other first).

The problem is that any sub captain with half a brain will use sub hydro to see where DD is then just do a 90 or 180 degree turn, so DD trying to chase subs will always be led on a Wild goose chase.

I gave up trying to do anything about subs in a DD a long ... long .... long time ago. Just not worth it. DDs are the worst at trying to counter subs and they just die trying.

But we also of course have "Balanced by playerbase" where a Bot playing a sub will get killed the first 2 min even tho he has all the gimmicks in the world to be broken/OP .... because reasons. Thats why you sometime see subs getting killed. Never underestimate "Balanced by playerbase".

With the Submarine torpedo arming-distance changes, wherein the torpedoes hit with less force than a "fluffy-bunny-kiss" below 3 km, a DD has little to fear from a Submarine.
Mostly a DD needs to avoid being detected and fired upon by the Submarine's team-mates, which is also a consideration for the Submarine.

Sure, evasion is often the Submarine's plan.  So they can re-engage later from a better position.  Which is also often a DD's plan.

But in the hypothetical yacht-club race between a submarine and a destroyer, the DD is usually going to be the winner, especially over longer distances.  🙂 

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

6 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

With the Submarine torpedo arming-distance changes, wherein the torpedoes hit with less force than a "fluffy-bunny-kiss" below 3 km, a DD has little to fear from a Submarine.
Mostly a DD needs to avoid being detected and fired upon by the Submarine's team-mates, which is also a consideration for the Submarine.

Sure, evasion is often the Submarine's plan.  So they can re-engage later from a better position.  Which is also often a DD's plan.

But in the hypothetical yacht-club race between a submarine and a destroyer, the DD is usually going to be the winner, especially over longer distances.  🙂 

Yes, in a hypothetical yacht-club race between a submarine and a destroyer, a DD will first go over the finish line, but that has very little to do with trying to chase a Sub to kill it.

Most issues playing DD on a flank with a Sub is that thats just one more BS thing you have to deal with that you probably never even got close to counter, while Sub sees you every time you spotted and can ping you, he can ping you using youre shells if you shoot inside smoke, he can even ping you by spotting you with sub hydro in smoke. 

Edited June 23 by OldSchoolGaming_Youtube

[thornzero]

I imagine it is easier in mid-tiers. I have killed subs with guns, torps, and ramming but I was surprised how many by d.c..

[Wolfswetpaws]

6 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Yes, in a hypothetical yacht-club race between a submarine and a destroyer, a DD will first go over the finish line, but that has very little to do with trying to chase a Sub to kill it.

I'll use an old illustration as a visual aid.  Imagine the green triangle is a Submarine.
  

If these were two DD's, then the green DD would have the red DD within its torpedo launching arcs.
But, for purposes of our discussion, the green triangle is a Submarine, which has bow and stern launching arcs (instead of port and starboard).

For our discussion, the red DD is in a good position to attack the Submarine.  
The DD can fire its forward guns and can wiggle a bit to make gunfire hits from the submarine (if it even has a gun?) more difficult.
And the red DD can approach to within 2 km or less without fear of torpedoes which won't arm within that distance.
Ramming is still a threat, but that threat works both ways.
The DD's depth-charges are potent weapons within knife-fight-in-a-telephone-booth distances and a decent Submarine player will know that.
Which is why a Submarine may prefer to attempt a ramming attack at close range (especially if they are me).

When I play a Submarine, a nimble DD is a high-priority target that I prefer to have the help of my team-mates to deal with.
Ideally, I'll spot the DD and team-mates will focus fire upon it.
Other times, I'll detect a DD which is hiding in smoke and attempt to sink it with homing torpedoes or dumb-fired torpedoes.

Destroyers equipped with hydro-acoustic search are formidable opponents for a Submarine.
The recent equipping of several Cruisers with the Submarine-Surveilance consumable is another reason for a Submarine to try to remain undetected and at a reasonable distance.
A submarine that is over-run is in trouble, and, with the arming-distance changes to the torpedoes, has few weapons to use in a knife-fight.
If surrounded by multiple ships and forced to the surface because its dive-time is exhausted, a Submarine is a fragile target.

So, as I've stated elsewhere in the past, Anti-Submarine-Warfare and Submarine Warfare begins as soon as the match starts and often involves understanding what "the other guy" may do in a given situation.
Which I why I strive to play all ship types, to learn to play them well, and to learn how to sink them efficiently when I play a different ship type.  🙂 

[Unlooky]

4 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

If, for whatever reason or wild circumstance, you happen to start at one end of the map and chase it to the other end of the map, ...
then you'll probably catch it, eventually.
Why? 
Because it will run-out of dive-time and you'll be faster on the surface (assuming you don't sink each other first).

Except, of course, this is totally infeasible in 90% of scenarios. Good destroyer positioning is typically on the knife's edge of being overextended or too far back, and even a minute of travel in either direction will take you out of position.

Only exceptionally poor submarine players with 0 game sense whatsoever get done in this way, as any half decent submarine will retreat to a position protected by his team and attempts to depth charge him become a suicide run.

Most poor DD players see the submarine and take the unintentional bait of attempting to immediately use depth charges.

The only situation where chasing a submarine until their dive time expires occurs is in an endgame position, which of course has no bearing on the outcome of the game which is usually decided by that point. 

It's quite frustrating to play against a class where the correct play is to wait and do nothing. 

[Zysyss]

What needs to change is when subs run out of battery time, they surface and right away dive again for a short period of time. They can do it over and over. They need to change things, so they have to stay surfaced until they get a 1/4 battery charge or more.

Edited June 24 by Zysyss

[ArIskandir]

8 hours ago, thornzero said:

I imagine it is easier in mid-tiers. I have killed subs with guns, torps, and ramming but I was surprised how many by d.c..

Where do You see that stat?

[thornzero]

1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

Where do You see that stat?

In game - profile page

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

22 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I'll use an old illustration as a visual aid.  Imagine the green triangle is a Submarine.
  

If these were two DD's, then the green DD would have the red DD within its torpedo launching arcs.
But, for purposes of our discussion, the green triangle is a Submarine, which has bow and stern launching arcs (instead of port and starboard).

For our discussion, the red DD is in a good position to attack the Submarine.  
The DD can fire its forward guns and can wiggle a bit to make gunfire hits from the submarine (if it even has a gun?) more difficult.
And the red DD can approach to within 2 km or less without fear of torpedoes which won't arm within that distance.
Ramming is still a threat, but that threat works both ways.
The DD's depth-charges are potent weapons within knife-fight-in-a-telephone-booth distances and a decent Submarine player will know that.
Which is why a Submarine may prefer to attempt a ramming attack at close range (especially if they are me).

When I play a Submarine, a nimble DD is a high-priority target that I prefer to have the help of my team-mates to deal with.
Ideally, I'll spot the DD and team-mates will focus fire upon it.
Other times, I'll detect a DD which is hiding in smoke and attempt to sink it with homing torpedoes or dumb-fired torpedoes.

Destroyers equipped with hydro-acoustic search are formidable opponents for a Submarine.
The recent equipping of several Cruisers with the Submarine-Surveilance consumable is another reason for a Submarine to try to remain undetected and at a reasonable distance.
A submarine that is over-run is in trouble, and, with the arming-distance changes to the torpedoes, has few weapons to use in a knife-fight.
If surrounded by multiple ships and forced to the surface because its dive-time is exhausted, a Submarine is a fragile target.

So, as I've stated elsewhere in the past, Anti-Submarine-Warfare and Submarine Warfare begins as soon as the match starts and often involves understanding what "the other guy" may do in a given situation.
Which I why I strive to play all ship types, to learn to play them well, and to learn how to sink them efficiently when I play a different ship type.  🙂 

Im not sure what were discussing? Is this still the Jäger Vs Sub or is it something else. What im saying as a sub you have all the advantages (except for the surface boat race that you mentioned), so you will spot the DD and then you can toy with it pretty much as you like while hes trying to "chase" you up on the surface. If a enemy DD has great hydro on youre flank u take that into consideration as a sub player (make sure he cant just Leroy Jenkins you. 

But for most time when sub guy has even average skill he will control all engagements that will happen and only huge mistake with grant the DD the kill pretty much. Most sube will be so much more efficient in screening scenarios and able to get torp hits on the reds then and opposing DD will and from mostly safety since you have great conceal and dive capacity which takes radar, plane spotting and hydro out any equation unlike for the DD.

[ArIskandir]

21 hours ago, Unlooky said:

It's quite frustrating to play against a class where the correct play is to wait and do nothing. 

I'm amazed why people still doesn't blind fire the darn ping marker... If you have good RoF you should be shelling the ping marker. The regular unlocked dispersion of shells actually produces a very effective scattershot.

Anyway, it isn't like you are doing nothing while waiting for a chance to strike the Sub... there's the regular fighting going on, ships to sink, caps to take, enemies to spot, allies to screen... In a way it is positive ASW interactions are a bit on the passive side. 

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 hours ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Im not sure what were discussing? Is this still the Jäger Vs Sub or is it something else. What im saying as a sub you have all the advantages (except for the surface boat race that you mentioned), so you will spot the DD and then you can toy with it pretty much as you like while hes trying to "chase" you up on the surface. If a enemy DD has great hydro on youre flank u take that into consideration as a sub player (make sure he cant just Leroy Jenkins you. 

But for most time when sub guy has even average skill he will control all engagements that will happen and only huge mistake with grant the DD the kill pretty much. Most sube will be so much more efficient in screening scenarios and able to get torp hits on the reds then and opposing DD will and from mostly safety since you have great conceal and dive capacity which takes radar, plane spotting and hydro out any equation unlike for the DD.

I thought we were discussing DD versus Submarine.

Once a Submarine goes to periscope-depth, its perception of other ships will be limited to those ships' aerial detection value.
So, unless the submarine is using a detection consumable, it will be out-spotted by a stealthy DD or spotted simultaneously.
Given the aerial detection values of DD's and Submarines, the detection will happen within the 3 km arming distance of Submarine torpedoes.

[Unlooky]

3 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

I'm amazed why people still doesn't blind fire the darn ping marker... If you have good RoF you should be shelling the ping marker. The regular unlocked dispersion of shells actually produces a very effective scattershot.

Anyway, it isn't like you are doing nothing while waiting for a chance to strike the Sub... there's the regular fighting going on, ships to sink, caps to take, enemies to spot, allies to screen... In a way it is positive ASW interactions are a bit on the passive side. 

 

I'm amazed that you think a class which relies on concealment should be constantly revealing its position with blindfires. Perhaps I would in a ship like Marceau or Kléber, certainly not any "normal" destroyer. You do not have the alpha to do any meaningful amount of damage and will almost certainly draw the fire of the submarine's supporting teammates. You can't even be confident in doing damage, since a submarine can ping from operating depth or shift to operating depth upon taking fire. 

Your second paragraph is also rather interesting. You acknowledge the lack of counterplay against submarines... as a good thing? Do people actually get overwhelmed with the amount of actions to take in this game? I spend maybe 40% total of my matches tabbed out between torpedo reloads and positioning because of how slow paced this game is. There is no positive to a class lacking meaningful counterplay. Full stop. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

19 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

There is no positive to a class lacking meaningful counterplay. Full stop. 

I disagree.
I feel there's plenty of play/counterplay with Submarines.
I also feel that many people simply do not perceive the nuances and the opportunities.  "Full stop."  😉