Video worth watching.

[Helstrem]

Players, of any kind, are not responsible for blowouts.  Blowouts are a product of the snowball effect, which is enhanced or inhibited through game mechanics.  WoWS game mechanics lack significant anti-snowball mechanics as such don't fit well thematically.

Skill differentials between teams are good at predicting the team that will win, but not the quality of that outcome.  It might be close, it might be a blowout.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

1 minute ago, Helstrem said:

Blowouts are a product of the snowball effect, which is enhanced or inhibited through game mechanics. 

It's enhanced or inhibited by players' ships being sunk, which is a human-performance issue. 

[Col_NASTY]

WG is going to do what they want to please the bean counters..Period.

That said..

The Gaming world isn't used to a long term sustainable game.  They especially ended that when they eliminated DVD based games we could own for life and play any ole time we wanted to.

Doesn't make them enough $$$$ over time AND they HAD to produce AWESOME games,  much like hit movies,  in order to cash in.

Too much work.

Turn and burn is the way.

Earn a great following and reputation THEN Capitalize on it as you drain every good thing it had in its reputation away to drive more people to the payment gateways.

Rep ruined , people leave, rinse repeat.

But NOW when they turn off the servers you cannt ever play it again unless you play their NEW version if/when they make one.

I still have and play the entire BF suite will all the expansions.. COD too.

Personally I believe in keeping my Clients happy and they will stay forever. ( 4 of my clients that started with me over 20 years ago are still here ) THAT model is harder to maintain and takes a ton of work .

Gaming is not built that way.

SO.. It's true. WG doesn't give a flying flip about the people who made this game and community what it was.

As a former Whale I knew that going in.

Expecting them to GAF is just a bit naive.

That is all

 

 

[Col_NASTY]

6 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

Players, of any kind, are not responsible for blowouts. 

I am afraid I disagree here.

Whats seems to be a massive increase of the " This game is lost" snowflakes who quit or yolo suicide as soon as they're a ship or 2 down has been very noticable , especially in high tiers and amazingly I see it from players who have been here forever and members of so called well established clans.

Had one just a few days ago who has been  here since BETA, do it before the first shot was even fired..  He then took his SUPERSHIP right up the middle to get focused down and die.

That began a bunch of player who did the same.. Just GAVE UP.

Don't get me started on the players that bunch up behind an island and NEVER come out Who here hasn't seen 4 -6 ships , even BBS hiding behind islands waiting for who knows what??  ( Love it when the reds do it.. I get more Krakkens and double strikes that way.)

SO YES they are players of a type and they are a major cause of many blowouts.

[Admiral_Karasu]

1 minute ago, Col_NASTY said:

I am afraid I disagree here.

Whats seems to be a massive increase of the " This game is lost" snowflakes who quit or yolo suicide as soon as they're a ship or 2 down has been very noticable , especially in high tiers and amazingly I see it from players who have been here forever and members of so called well established clans.

Had one just a few days ago who has been  here since BETA, do it before the first shot was even fired..  He then took his SUPERSHIP right up the middle to get focused down and die.

That began a bunch of player who did the same.. Just GAVE UP.

Don't get me started on the players that bunch up behind an island and NEVER come out Who here hasn't seen 4 -6 ships , even BBS hiding behind islands waiting for who knows what??  ( Love it when the reds do it.. I get more Krakkens and double strikes that way.)

SO YES they are players of a type and they are a major cause of many blowouts.

Could it be because now they can not only get to the next battle they can get to the next battle with the same ship? They just cut their losses in order not to lose time nor effort on what they consider a lost match, whether it actually is lost or just something that got a little harder to win.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

22 minutes ago, Aethervox said:

This is your opinion only. My opinion is that WG is the problem (as much of the problem as the bad players are).

ECs opinion is just flat out wrong.

Everything in game is something that WG could do something about, if they cared to.

Claiming anything in game is something WG is powerless to change is just a straight out lie attempting to justify WGs laziness at running the game.

6 minutes ago, Col_NASTY said:

I am afraid I disagree here.

Whats seems to be a massive increase of the " This game is lost" snowflakes who quit or yolo suicide as soon as they're a ship or 2 down has been very noticable , especially in high tiers and amazingly I see it from players who have been here forever and members of so called well established clans.

Had one just a few days ago who has been  here since BETA, do it before the first shot was even fired..  He then took his SUPERSHIP right up the middle to get focused down and die.

That began a bunch of player who did the same.. Just GAVE UP.

Don't get me started on the players that bunch up behind an island and NEVER come out Who here hasn't seen 4 -6 ships , even BBS hiding behind islands waiting for who knows what??  ( Love it when the reds do it.. I get more Krakkens and double strikes that way.)

SO YES they are players of a type and they are a major cause of many blowouts.

I see people giving up a lot these days.

Function of the playerbase WGs churn strategy selected...players only want to play when the odds are in their favor...function of WGs marketing strategy of direct selling items to enhance chances of winning.

Welcome to World of Warships. This is the game WG wants.

[HogHammer]

This is a good discussion, but I would like to shed a little more light on the topic. It's a topic that really needs to be unraveled to better understand it.  

So, to kick this off:

Does WoWs provide instructional videos?  Yes.

Now, here we begin to unravel the"instructional videos."  (1) Although present in-game and on the WoWs website, no one is required to view them, and they are not required viewing to advance within the game.   (2) Over the past year, I have talked about this topic with former WG/WoWs employees and CCs, and they have not viewed them all or, in a couple of cases, did not even know they were available in the game to their surprise.  I had to actually point the tutorial tab to them.  When you hit "escape," there is a tutorial tab (see image below).  Again, this is also offered on the WoWs website at For Beginners | World of Warships.

Now, perhaps WoWs could make the "video tutorials" stand out better (a colored background, perhaps), but it is there in-game.  But again, there is no requirement to view or view to progress in the game.  The responsibility solely rests on the players to watch and learn.  Additionally, these are good tutorial videos for the basics of the game if one cares about learning; however, again, from mainly talking to CCs, any additional, say, more advanced knowledge-based videos or in-stream instructions are ALL third-party, not promoted by WoWs and are only promoted via third-party sites like DevStrike!, Reddit, etc.  Many may not be aware of these additional, more advanced knowledge-based instructions or won't take the time and effort to search for them.

This makes the old adage of "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink" more plausible.  The community has to come to grips with the fact that there are many here with (1) no desire to learn (I just want to play ships), (2) have the attitude of "on-the-job" training, or (3) "simply don't know where to turn" to learn or increase their knowledge of the game.

Despite what one may think, WoW has a significant learning curve not only for new but also for veteran players. With the continual addition of ships, updates, nerfs, and buffs, there is ALWAYS some form of knowledge that has to be gained.

Many may not be aware of the game's changes, either. If you have recently established a new account, you may understand it better. Below is a video by Flambass that I totally understand based on my own experience. I time-stamped it to begin at the relevant point.  Worth a view or listen.

I will add to the above video my recent experience with two brand-spanking new accounts.  There are basically NO new players in the protected (learning phase) of the game.  Remember, the protected players are all combined (NA, EU, ASIA) on one server.  I rarely saw more than one, perhaps two, real players on the red team. It's all bots.  You can guess where these new players reside in the game - tier 5 and above.  Also, I did not need to buy the Yamato; it was given to me free of charge!

The very recent video below by Sea Lord Mountbatten also touches on "new" players. It basically points out that a lot has changed in the game that many here may have forgotten. It's worth viewing and getting this perspective.

The knowledge aspect of this game, to me, is perhaps the largest issue in the game (the elephant in the room).  I, like many here, love the game but may feel like they are banging their head against a wall at times.  I cannot begin to count the number of frustrated players I've encountered, the CCs that have cut back their time providing content or just left the game.  

The million-dollar question, however, is what can be done. That is a tough question to answer. I do think that WoWs could do a much better job related to this topic, and I sometimes wonder why this has not really been addressed.  On the other hand, I do realize this is a business - they, like any company, are here to make money.

[Wolfswetpaws]

35 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Could it be because now they can not only get to the next battle they can get to the next battle with the same ship? They just cut their losses in order not to lose time nor effort on what they consider a lost match, whether it actually is lost or just something that got a little harder to win.

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

42 minutes ago, Col_NASTY said:

I am afraid I disagree here.

Whats seems to be a massive increase of the " This game is lost" snowflakes who quit or yolo suicide as soon as they're a ship or 2 down has been very noticable , especially in high tiers and amazingly I see it from players who have been here forever and members of so called well established clans.

Had one just a few days ago who has been  here since BETA, do it before the first shot was even fired..  He then took his SUPERSHIP right up the middle to get focused down and die.

That began a bunch of player who did the same.. Just GAVE UP.

Don't get me started on the players that bunch up behind an island and NEVER come out Who here hasn't seen 4 -6 ships , even BBS hiding behind islands waiting for who knows what??  ( Love it when the reds do it.. I get more Krakkens and double strikes that way.)

SO YES they are players of a type and they are a major cause of many blowouts.

I blame the yolo & get sunk behavior on a few factors, and one or more of them could be relevant for the specific battle in question.
1.  Use of the "match maker monitor" software.
2.  Poor mental coping skills / lack of perserverance?
3.  YOLO-ing can be more fun.  And/or a yolo charge works best to achieve progress in a specific mission task the player is working-on.

The "fish-bait ball" as I like to call the phenomena of a group of players circling in one small area (often behind an insland) happens.
That's a player problem, though.  Where the players somehow think that what they're doing is the best option at that time.
But, if they played better earlier in the game, they might not be in such a predicament.
And playing better, or learning how to play better, is a player responsibility.

 

[ArIskandir]

35 minutes ago, HogHammer said:

The million-dollar question, however, is what can be done. That is a tough question to answer.

Indeed. The short sighted answer is segmenting the players by experience/skill but the player base is not large enough to support that. It would fall into a vicious circle of the remedy being worse than the disease. Pooling servers together (like the new player protected pool does) could be an answer but must present some challenge as they haven't implemented it. 

The far-sighted answer implies a change on the way progression and monetization works, but they have not given the smallest hint on the thinniest possibility of making significant changes on that area. 

[Frostbow]

40 minutes ago, HogHammer said:

Over the past year, I have talked about this topic with former WG/WoWs employees and CCs, and they have not viewed them all or, in a couple of cases, did not even know they were available in the game to their surprise.

What Wargaming has created under the Tutorial Missions is at best a very thin material for the new player. Much of it is about mounting economic bonuses, opening containers, mounting a camouflage, mounting signals. These are requisite topics any new player must know, but looking at the totality of it, there is scant coverage on the more important matters that would sustain a new player's journey: angling, use of islands as armor, concealment, gun bloom, smoke, AA defense, dodging torpedoes, when to best use AP or HE or SAP. 

Heroes Over Europe, a World War 2 themed arcade flying video game released way back in 2009, has one complete mission that teaches all players the basics and advanced aspects of the game, including the finer points of dogfighting. 

Here's a video of that mission. Notice how the game instructs the new player what to do, what to expect, and what to watch out for. And there's the music and of course, that amazing story-driven dialogue.

If only Wargaming designed content in the World of Warships that would literally hand hold new players during an actual Random Battle, we would be seeing a lot more fun in the game, and stomps would be reduced significantly.

[Helstrem]

1 hour ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

It's enhanced or inhibited by players' ships being sunk, which is a human-performance issue. 

Only slightly.  Unicum vs unicum matches still produce blowouts.  Games such as Team Fortress 2, Overwatch ect use the biggest anti-snowball effect mechanic there is, respawns.  Thematically, respawns don't work well for WoWS.

1 hour ago, Col_NASTY said:

I am afraid I disagree here.

Whats seems to be a massive increase of the " This game is lost" snowflakes who quit or yolo suicide as soon as they're a ship or 2 down has been very noticable , especially in high tiers and amazingly I see it from players who have been here forever and members of so called well established clans.

I only recall dealing with one such who openly admitted what he was doing.  He claimed to be a unicum player from the European server and that WoWSMonitor, or whatever it is called, said the match was hopeless and we were all bad.  He sailed to the far corner and taunted us through the match.  We won.

That said, I have definitely suspected players of YOLOing to get to the next match.

1 hour ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Could it be because now they can not only get to the next battle they can get to the next battle with the same ship? They just cut their losses in order not to lose time nor effort on what they consider a lost match, whether it actually is lost or just something that got a little harder to win.

Yes, I believe this is a significant factor in player's behavior.

41 minutes ago, HogHammer said:

The million-dollar question, however, is what can be done. That is a tough question to answer. I do think that WoWs could do a much better job related to this topic, and I sometimes wonder why this has not really been addressed.  On the other hand, I do realize this is a business - they, like any company, are here to make money.

The only anti-snowball mechanic that I have been able to come up with, and it is flawed, would be to do a quasi-respawn mechanic where after being sunk the player picks, or has a preset queue, of other ships of the same type and tier, to respawn in as.  Player's North Carolina gets sunk, spawn in Monarch, Monarch gets sunk, spawn in Kii and so on.  Call it "reinforcements" or something.

Flaws, Bobby, a new player starting with the US BB line just got North Carolina, and is placed in a Tier X match.  His North Carolina does what stock North Carolinas do when facing experienced players in Yamatos, sinks.  Bobby has no other Tier VIII ships of any kind, allowing him to use Colorado isn't doing anybody any favors.  It could be coded to have exceptions for cases like Bobby's where in the case of no other ships of the same tier and type you respawn a new copy of the ship they have.

If they have a same tier, different type of ship available perhaps that could be subbed in, but I can see that being grossly abused.  Sarah is in a close match, the enemy's DD is now running wild as all friendly DDs have been sunk.  Sarah knows that the next ship in her queue is a DD so she YOLOs her Amagi and bring in her Lightning.  That would be a major balance shift.

How consumables, XP and daily win bonuses are handled would also have to be worked out.

[Admiral_Karasu]

21 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

The only anti-snowball mechanic that I have been able to come up with, and it is flawed, would be to do a quasi-respawn mechanic where after being sunk the player picks, or has a preset queue, of other ships of the same type and tier, to respawn in as.  Player's North Carolina gets sunk, spawn in Monarch, Monarch gets sunk, spawn in Kii and so on.  Call it "reinforcements" or something.

 

That sounds like what WoT has periodically had for tier 8 tanks, the Frontline mode.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Could it be because now they can not only get to the next battle they can get to the next battle with the same ship? They just cut their losses in order not to lose time nor effort on what they consider a lost match, whether it actually is lost or just something that got a little harder to win.

But that's an individual-person thing, and it doesn't reflect well on the people who do it. They're quitters. Responsible players fight on to the bitter end.

1 hour ago, HogHammer said:

Although present in-game and on the WoWs website, no one is required to view them, and they are not required viewing to advance within the game. 

Would it change things at all if they were?

How many people get their driver's, boating, pilot's, machinery operator's etc. license and then go out and do stupid s**t that gets themselves and/or others needlessly killed? That figure ought to be zero, but we all know it isn't. Forcing people through a training course won't make them better players; it just means they've ticked the boxes. 

5 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

Only slightly.  Unicum vs unicum matches still produce blowouts. 

They do, but it still comes down to human-performance issues (including those due to stress and the perception of high stakes in contexts such as KOTS). A pair of six-year-old beginners at a chessboard can each make multiple blunders and still wriggle out of them because the other kid is too inexperienced to see the opportunity they just got served up. The same blunder at World Championship level is instantly lethal, because your opponent will see it and will capitalize on it. The analogy is not exact because in WOWS you can sometimes slink away with a small part of your health pool intact, and you're part of a team rather than the only one, but I think it holds in terms of perception and punishment of careless errors, whether forced or unforced. 

13 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

The only anti-snowball mechanic that I have been able to come up with, and it is flawed, would be to do a quasi-respawn mechanic where after being sunk the player picks, or has a preset queue, of other ships of the same type and tier, to respawn in as.  Player's North Carolina gets sunk, spawn in Monarch, Monarch gets sunk, spawn in Kii and so on.  Call it "reinforcements" or something.

This is how Pokemon Go does it.

Wargaming has tried respawn in a special mode precisely ONCE that I can remember in all my time playing. Once and never again. But as you say, it's not thematic for this game. In no naval battle I ever read about did the losing faction's ships miraculously reappear on the battlefield. Real naval battles can be and often were blowouts. Trafalgar was a blowout. Tsushima was a blowout. Midway was a blowout, and would have been a four-nil shut-out if not for a Japanese submarine. Surigao Strait was a blowout.

Samar should have been a blowout, but for a counterattack so ferocious it caused a Japanese admiral to lose his nerve. 

[Col_NASTY]

2 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Could it be because now they can not only get to the next battle they can get to the next battle with the same ship? They just cut their losses in order not to lose time nor effort on what they consider a lost match, whether it actually is lost or just something that got a little harder to win.

Just imagine the pummeling you would get IRL in a Football locker-room with that attitude LOL

Bookies say we are the underdogs so I'm just going to fumble and throw interceptions the whole game so I can go home early🤣

Easy win or just quit.

What a world we live in.🙄