Pan American brawling line of BB's enroute (sort of)

[pepe_trueno]

On 6/5/2024 at 9:24 PM, AdmiralThunder said:

 That also opens the door for a SuperShip Atlantico. OMG...

 

one can dream

 

2 hours ago, Project45_Opytny said:

A well-off member of WoWS Community that has access to premium Gamemodels3D service has already provided some further first-hand information on Libertad.

Original posts: https://nga.178.com/read.php?tid=40611769, https://tieba.baidu.com/p/9060831919

 

Key information:

• Main Battery Firing angles: 35 forward, 33 rearward: comparable with Preussen and Schlieffen, much better than GK.
• Like Atlantico, can unmask all her secondaries within a safe angle (sharper than 30).
• Massachusetts-Casemate dispersion (33R+30) for all secondaries. 210000 DPM from 9.2-inchers (that can penetrate up to 59-mm plating, much superior to any other existing T10 brawlers) and 86400 DPM from 5-inchers for 296400 grand total without further upgrades, and 273000+112320=385320 with Combat Instruction active.
• However, she uses the same parameters for her 9.2-inch secondaries with Atlantico which means they are uncannily vulnerable to various damage.
• Protection scheme resembles Maine and Vermont: 51-mm amidships (deck, upper belt and torpedo bulge), 406-mm citadel belt, exposed slightly above waterline sloped with 28 degrees, and space between bugle and citadel is treated as torpedo protection void with no module HP assigned. Effectiveness is estimated to be comparable with Kreml's citadel regarding broadside and how "vulnerable" her citadel would be can be comparably judged.
• However she has no reinforced bow/stern, neither icebreaker belt nor hidden armored deck and has an uncannily thin traverse bulkhead with only 102-mm which would make her very vulnerable to a few ships that can overmatch 32-mm plating or having a combination of improved autobounce and high penetration.
• Poor deck armor scheme as a whole, comparable to Bismarck regarding interaction with AP bombs.
• USN battleship DCP (20s effect time), Warspite repair party (with only 10% citadel damage restoration ratio though).

may be i am looking it wrong but schlieffen seems better in most aspects that matters for a brawler (secondary DPM, icebreaker, hydro and torpedoes). Libertad has better main gun DPM.

i got the feeling WG is going to overnerf it in the name of the funny button.

 

[Project45_Opytny]

8 minutes ago, pepe_trueno said:

may be i am looking it wrong but schlieffen seems better in most aspects that matters for a brawler (secondary DPM, icebreaker, hydro and torpedoes). Libertad has better main gun DPM.

i got the feeling WG is going to overnerf it in the name of the funny button.

 

Doesn't secondary HE penetration (that Libertad's amidships is almost completely immune to Schlieffen's secondaries when they are close enough for secondaries but still too far for feasible torpedo attacks) and a favorable set of consumables count as in Libertad's favor?

[pepe_trueno]

7 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

Doesn't secondary HE penetration (that Libertad's amidships is almost completely immune to Schlieffen's secondaries when they are close enough for secondaries but still too far for feasible torpedo attacks) and a favorable set of consumables count as in Libertad's favor?

59mm pen does allow libertad to pen some ships upper belt and deck that Schlieffen can not but for the most part 32mm is the golden threshold. Now that i think about it libertad advantage will be in the fires per minute since it won't need IFHE.

even then the weak armor and lack of tools like hydro are a big problem for a ship that want to fight from close range especially in current randoms were they will get focused.

combat instrucion requirements being hits and potential damage is weird. as a stealth secondary ship you want to sneak on the enemy ship and activate the combat instrucion within secondary range not go guns blazing from afar so the combat instruction is loaded by the time you get within secondary range.  

as said before i am just speculating with what little info i have but so far i am not impressed, For this ship to work it needs armor, lots of it. Nerf the main guns ROF if needed but brawler ships need to be tough even more so if the combat instruction revolves around potential damage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

I'm just not seeing how the concept can work as intended with the current design. My money is on changes before release...and probably changes after release as well.

[pepe_trueno]

On 6/21/2024 at 1:20 PM, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I'm just not seeing how the concept can work as intended with the current design. My money is on changes before release...and probably changes after release as well.

the concept does not really fit, for a line of fast squishy secondary ships we already have the german BC line that are better in almost every aspect.

considering pan american have enough BBs to make it to t6/t7 with real designs is amusing they decide to go with this concepts, They should have gone with slow  heavy armored BBs with strong secondary guns which is both more in line with pan american real design and fills a niche that does not exist in current tech tree lines.

 

[Project45_Opytny]

On 6/21/2024 at 10:27 PM, pepe_trueno said:

59mm pen does allow libertad to pen some ships upper belt and deck that Schlieffen can not but for the most part 32mm is the golden threshold. Now that i think about it libertad advantage will be in the fires per minute since it won't need IFHE.

I think you are underestimating how much difference 59mm secondary HE pen would probably make, taking what ships are more likely to be engaged in close quarters into consideration.

59mm secondary HE pen that contributes most of her secondaries DPM potential would allow Libertad to effectively counter Montana, Ohio, Minnesota, Georgia (38mm amidships), Vermont (51mm amidships), Schlieffen, Preussen, Grosser Kurfurst, Colombo, Clausewitz (50mm deck), Petropavlovsk (40mm amidships), St. Vincent (40mm deck)... as well as fire setting potential (indeed)... in contrast, the majority of Schlieffen's secondary DPM is only 32mm "penn-able" (that will have reduced effectiveness against aforementioned list of ships with reinforced deck/amidships) and cannot be improved any further; the majority of Preussen and GK's secondaries can be upgraded into 40mm "penn-able" with IFHE.

On 6/21/2024 at 9:25 PM, pepe_trueno said:

icebreaker

I don't think this deficiency would give Schlieffen much advantage against Libertad, as she cannot overmatch standard BB hull plating for her tier anyway.

On 6/21/2024 at 9:25 PM, pepe_trueno said:

hydro and torpedoes

Yes.

On 6/21/2024 at 10:27 PM, pepe_trueno said:

even then the weak armor

I've already given a brief introduction to Libertad's belt protection scheme: 51mm upper belt and torpedo bulge, space between bulge and citadel belt is considered as TDS void, and inside 406mm citadel belt with 29 degrees of slope. I don't think this is a very glaring weakness ("comparable with Kreml"), and German battlecruisers themselves as well as Soviet battleships should have proved that brawlers can be viable without idiot-proof citadel protection. And despite original introduction, Libertad's firing angles are actually comparable to Preussen and Schlieffen.

 

A more relevant weakness may be her casemate: that she has a casemate with significant height (thanks to her freeboard and citadel configuration) yet not thick enough to shatter cruiser SAP and also being vulnerable against opportunistic AP.

Edited June 24 by Project45_Opytny

[pepe_trueno]

14 hours ago, Project45_Opytny said:

I think you are underestimating how much difference 59mm secondary HE pen would probably make, taking what ships are more likely to be engaged in close quarters into consideration.

59mm secondary HE pen that contributes most of her secondaries DPM potential would allow Libertad to effectively counter Montana, Ohio, Minnesota, Georgia (38mm amidships), Vermont (51mm amidships), Schlieffen, Preussen, Grosser Kurfurst, Colombo, Clausewitz (50mm deck), Petropavlovsk (40mm amidships), St. Vincent (40mm deck)... as well as fire setting potential (indeed)... in contrast, the majority of Schlieffen's secondary DPM is only 32mm "penn-able" (that will have reduced effectiveness against aforementioned list of ships with reinforced deck/amidships) and cannot be improved any further; the majority of Preussen and GK's secondaries can be upgraded into 40mm "penn-able" with IFHE.

 

Schlieffen 150mm have a natural pen of 38mm up to 47mm with IFHE and their DPM is inferior to the 234mm but the question here is if that extra DPM vs a selected group of ships is realy worth the drawbacks of the ship.

for the record is not the 234mm that bothers me but  the ships mounting them. May be my love for atlantico makes me a little biased 🙄  but for what little information i have i cant see those things filling an unexplored nich or being on the same level as the german BC line. 

if WG wanted to fill an unexplored niche then the line should resemble atlantico (slow with  heavy armor)  and if they wanted a line that compete with german BCs well those are some big shoes to fill specialy for something without hydro and torpedos. 

 

Edited June 25 by pepe_trueno

[IfYouSeeKhaos]

On 6/6/2024 at 8:54 AM, mashed68 said:

 

 

On 6/6/2024 at 9:19 AM, thornzero said:

 

 

On 6/6/2024 at 9:20 AM, cheapinkc said:

 

 

On 6/6/2024 at 9:47 AM, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

 

 

On 6/6/2024 at 1:56 PM, Wulf_Ace said:

 

Double post...really wish it would clear the post every time when you submit...

It does occasionally but when it doesn't...

(At least in my phone...YMMV...) Often when you hit submit & it doesn't clear it if you go to check on the post it erases the content & doesn't post & you have to start from scratch so you have to double post to make sure it takes & then erase 1 of the doubles...gets kinda annoying.

As a note...it seems to work fine ("clears the editor") after posting if you're on the last page of the thread...if on any of the earlier pages it has this annoying occurrence.

Edited June 25 by IfYouSeeKhaos

[IfYouSeeKhaos]

On 6/6/2024 at 8:54 AM, mashed68 said:

I play tier 5, I don't see bots. 
Que last night was fuller then I've seen in a couple years....

 

On 6/6/2024 at 9:19 AM, thornzero said:

I've been messing about in tier 5 on EU and there is some bots mixed in 4/5 per side or even a 9v9 match without bots from time to time. 

 

On 6/6/2024 at 9:20 AM, cheapinkc said:

Very hit or miss, at least 70% of my tier 5 games are at least partially populated with bots.  

 

On 6/6/2024 at 9:47 AM, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Both of my tier 5 games last night were filled with bots.

I see this about 75% of the time since April.

Played my Megadeth cruiser last night:

On 6/6/2024 at 1:56 PM, Wulf_Ace said:

probably because of dockyard missions

(Actually it was to finish the 40 fires in IJN/US only ships for that other set of missions...but I'm sure plenty are also playing for dockyard missions)...

& after having a 9v9 in the 1st battle with no bots & a 12v12 w/4 humans & the rest bots I was wondering (for just a moment) why they didn't just add 3 bots to the 9v9...& then I figured it out pretty quickly...

T6 & above matches can't see bots so...

If there's bots in a T5 it's because you're top tier...&...

If there isn't bots in a T5 you are bottom tier & queue dumps (such as the 9v9) are more likely to occur.

Of the 3 non bot matches I had last night none of them were 12v12...1st was 9v9 (with 2 CVs per side)/2nd was 7v7 (w/2 CVs per side)/3rd was either 9v9 or 10v10...but only one w/out a CV.

Had 4 12v12 w/bot battles with varying amounts of humans (3v3 least 7v7 most).

Edited June 25 by IfYouSeeKhaos

[Project45_Opytny]

2 hours ago, pepe_trueno said:

Schlieffen 150mm have a natural pen of 38mm up to 47mm with IFHE

Schlieffen's 150mm secondaries contribute only about 114930 DPM (Libertad 234mm: 210000) before boosters and assuming all her secondaries are unmasked, and they are arranged in such a fashion that in safely angled positions only half of them on one side can be unmasked.

[Yedwy]

On 6/6/2024 at 2:40 AM, tfcas119 said:

Not a big fan of ignoring T3-7 (especailly when Brazil, Argentina, and Chile have enough real ships/design studies to fill in those lines with a premium or two) but I like the concept of what's there

Yeah looks like WG finally just gave up on low and mid tiers officially and went full cashcow mode

[torino2dc]

1 hour ago, Yedwy said:

Yeah looks like WG finally just gave up on low and mid tiers officially and went full cashcow mode

Uhh... the most recent tech tree (Commonwealth Cruisers) was a full T1-T10 line, and the next line (French torp DDs) will start at T5. In addition, WG has been putting out more mid-tier premiums in the last half year (Orion, Montcalm, Rodney, Scharnhorst '43, Stord '43, Ferruccio) than they have in quite a while. 

Granted many of the recent ships have been related to existing ship models. However, from a development point of view, even a copy/paste ship hull is still resource intensive because every one needs to be balance tested and verified for game integrity. 

Bear in mind also that WG lost a significant portion of their ship modelers and their art department in the divorce from Lesta. From a management point of view they likely have to maximize the impact of a skeleton modeling team. I don't blame them for making the tough but logical decision to prioritize the high tiers until they've rebuilt their capacities. 

[Nevermore135]

54 minutes ago, torino2dc said:

Bear in mind also that WG lost a significant portion of their ship modelers and their art department in the divorce from Lesta. From a management point of view they likely have to maximize the impact of a skeleton modeling team. I don't blame them for making the tough but logical decision to prioritize the high tiers until they've rebuilt their capacities. 

It’s very likely the development roadmap simply specified a “short” branch (and possibly a BB release as well) and Pan-American BBs drew the short straw. It’s still a short-sighted and extremely disappointing decision.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 hour ago, torino2dc said:

even a copy/paste ship hull is still resource intensive because every one needs to be balance tested

LOL

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

3 hours ago, torino2dc said:

even a copy/paste ship hull is still resource intensive because every one needs to be balance tested

LOL

Okay.  I think I'm with @Daniel_Allan_Clark on this one.
Because a copied ship would already be balanced, because the original is balanced, eh?  🙂 

[Ferdinand_Max]

2 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

LOL

 

11 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Okay.  I think I'm with @Daniel_Allan_Clark on this one.
Because a copied ship would already be balanced, because the original is balanced, eh?  🙂 

I will note that Torino specifically stated hull. But if you give ship new guns, targeting systems or just ammunition, there's new work for the Disbalans Dipartmnt.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

18 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Okay.  I think I'm with @Daniel_Allan_Clark on this one.
Because a copied ship would already be balanced, because the original is balanced, eh?  🙂 

 

6 minutes ago, Ferdinand_Max said:

 

I will note that Torino specifically stated hull. But if you give ship new guns, targeting systems or just ammunition, there's new work for the Disbalans Dipartmnt.

My LOL was more on the idea that WG spends a lot of time and resources on balancing.

Exception checking, yes, probably...

But actual game balancing? Not as much.

[torino2dc]

7 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Because a copied ship would already be balanced, because the original is balanced, eh?

There's a difference between copy/paste visuals but new gameplay and cloning gameplay but with new visuals. Montcalm and Orion '44 would fall in the former category; the Xuan Wu and Zhu Que would belong to the latter.

Both would need to be tested but for different reasons. 

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

On 6/6/2024 at 3:28 AM, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

When WG asks why we don't respect them, quote this incident.

I dont htink they ever during 8-9 years has asked that question ..... do they even care?