The duality of the WoWS community.

[Wolfswetpaws]

17 minutes ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

31 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I play all available ship types, and I don't think any of them are "broken" or "over-powered".
They each have virtues, vices and quirks.

Well I play all ship types and I can feel how much more powerful some are compared to others lol.

Seems like another "agree to disagree" moment with us.  🙂 

[Aethervox]

19 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Coz a) its  a ... forum?

 

18 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

what You ask...'where I stand' has no easy black and white answer.

OK, NP. There's other perspectives. This reply is for both responses.  I was expressing my personal opinions on 1) reworked CVs (a total WG disaster, imo) 2) Flubs (err, Subs) Not, at all, implemented properly, imo. & 3) Supersh*ts - not my 'coined' expression tho it accurately, imo, describes WG's invention of same.

I refuse, now, to play any of these three classes/types of ship. I have gone 'principled' as opposed to whatever 'moved goal post' others utilize (like buying & playing a 'Bearn' when everyone knows it's simply to deplane other CVs).

This 'divide & conquer' the player base is why WG wins (& we lose). So, keep swallowing WG 'loads' & keep getting suckered (buying clearly gimmicked & OP ships).

I'm not into any kind forum flame.  Just expressing my opinions. Btw, I do agree with Daniel Alan Clark (for the most part).

Cool. Cheers

[BOBTHEBALL]

1 minute ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Seems like another "agree to disagree" moment with us.  🙂 

Sure does haha

[Wolfswetpaws]

12 minutes ago, clammboy said:

32 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I play all available ship types, and I don't think any of them are "broken" or "over-powered".
They each have virtues, vices and quirks.

While I love you to death Wolf I just have to totally disagree with this especially in random games coop not so much so. We all know that certain ships and classes are just better suited then others. 

It's okay @clammboy.  Seems like another "agree to disagree" moment.
Exchanging perspectives is one of the reasons for forums to exist, eh?  🙂 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

44 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Fine.  I'll just consider everything to be your opinion and leave it at that.

Fair enough.

It's an informed decision based on being around and observing WGs failures at changing CV play for many years now.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

6 minutes ago, Aethervox said:

Btw, I do agree with Daniel Alan Clark (for the most part).

For the record, I'm happy CVs are in the game...

Are you SURE you agree with me?

😉

We only have to agree that we are all willing to enjoy / play the game together. Anything beyond that is just discussion.

[Andrewbassg]

5 minutes ago, Aethervox said:

Btw, I do agree with Daniel Alan Clark (for the most part).

You and I also agree on most parts. And I also don't play Cv;s nor subs out of principle.

Now not even in ops   .....

[Asym]

4 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Not everyone needs 10,000 hours to become competent at this game.  But it doesen't hurt.  🙂 

Win or lose, I usually did stuff to make progress with my goals of the day.  And I don't lose sleep over my statistics.

I don't play because:  I do care.  There is nothing better than winning well.  Unfortunately, PVP is massively messed up.  Gosh, the endless stomps simply would cause me a stroke.  Losing, isn't in my vocabulary.  That's just not me.

I do and therefore, I don't.........

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, Asym said:

I don't play because:  I do care.  There is nothing better than winning well.  Unfortunately, PVP is massively messed up.  Gosh, the endless stomps simply would cause me a stroke.  Losing, isn't in my vocabulary.  That's just not me.

I do and therefore, I don't.........

Have you considered "re-defining what is a *win*"?

I've adjusted my standards to not feel upset about a win/loss outcome.
Do I continue to strive to play well?  Sure.
That said, I don't lose sleep over the outcomes derived from a situation in which I don't have authority (let alone control) over 23 other people whose behavior may or may not be depended upon.
  🙂 

Instead, my "wins" are derived from the things I can control.

[GandalfTehGray]

12 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Some people simply have the "subs"/"cv's" "are bad" mentality and would prefer to eliminate ship types which were historically present (thus denying their representation in-game).

They are bad for pvp as designed. 

A CV/Sub only and then a combined one would be how I would have implemented both classes into the game. A set of historically based operations for US/IJN subs and then basically the pacific campaign for CVs. 

 

Are they historically in the time frame of the game? Yes, but it doesn't mean they actually add to the experience in pvp. 

[Asym]

19 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Have you considered "re-defining what is a *win*"?

I've adjusted my standards to not feel upset about a win/loss outcome.
Do I continue to strive to play well?  Sure.
That said, I don't lose sleep over the outcomes derived from a situation in which I don't have authority (let alone control) over 23 other people whose behavior may or may not be depended upon.
  🙂 

Instead, my "wins" are derived from the things I can control.

Gosh Wolfie, I feel bad for you.  In a game controlled by ill conceived everything dominated by RNG, it meant to insure you have no control.....ever.  It simply makes for faster games which equals more revenue with no effort....

That's hard to "belong to" and many of us have "just said no...."

I wish you well since you accept M = P.....

[Yedwy]

5 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Then you have the people who sail off alone and then get picked off by a CV/Sub when a solo target is a very tempting one for both ship types since isolated targets have a harder time defending themselves, whether it's overlapping AA bubbles against aircraft or concentrated ASW attacks against subs, defending against CVs/subs is stronger when done in groups.

You meant to say - then you get the people that want to make a decisive effort in the battle by scouting or creating crossfires (or both) that then get griefed by the aforementined "special classes" couse lo and behold they look like they are purpose build to f-up the game of people that want to do something to break the "coin toss spread" what a coincidence, right? Right?

And yes fact that most "flock members" are incapable of pulling off the griefieng doesnt mean its not a fact of life, also a 40% with 15k av damage might not be able to get more WR (although people often will esp in CVs) but it cans still f-up the game of a player 10x better then himself and either kill him or force him to abandon any notion of carrying the game by the sheer fact their "special class" is designed by WG to do exactly that

  

11 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I've tilted long and hard at that windmill in WG staffs heads...CV mains have long maintained that damage farming is boring and they want to use planes for more than just strikes.

WG has consistently told us we were wrong and consistently tried to make CV play merely damage farming.

We have told them and told them and told them how bad that is for the game.

The fact that it remains their preferred game design should be owned BY WG STAFF.

CV players do not want the current system and design.

Exactly, the best part of play in the old RTS CVs was defeating the enemy CV and scouting out as much of the map as you could while still beeing able to contribute to bringing down key targets, I cant count the times when a good strafe basically decided the outcome of said match right there and then esp with stuff like Saipan

Edited May 20 by Yedwy

[ArIskandir]

14 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

also a 40% with 15k av damage might not be able to get more WR (although people often will esp in CVs) but it cans still f-up the game of a player 10x better then himself and either kill him or force him to abandon any notio of carrying the game

I wish I was able to b!tchslap the guy who started this ridicule reasoning... 

The Big sin of peasants not knowing their place, how they dare kill their betters... Bollocks, if you get f-ed up then You weren't that good. Snobism at its worst.

[MnemonScarlet]

8 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

FYI, WG got rid of RTS CVs because they couldn't figure out how to fix the UI bugs and needed to stop CV play from becoming entirely about spotting and air superiority. That's right...rework 0.8.0 was all about trying to deal with vision control...and here we are nearly five years later and vision control is still an issue and WG has come out with their second or third ideation session around changing CVs to 'fix' vision control issues...and all of their 'fixes' are about turning CVs into boring damage farming systems.

Oh I know, I was one of the people who just didn't bother and waited for them to fix it. Too bad they didn't and just junked the whole system for the inferior alternative. The current damage farm minigame is just so mind blowingly boring.

As said in other posts, DDs are the next best thing after CVs due to the vision system and how badly implemented it is in this game, so I wouldn't be surprised if they get a balancing pass after WG is finished with the carriers and those changes sink in.

43 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

I wish I was able to b!tchslap the guy who started this ridicule reasoning... 

The Big sin of peasants not knowing their place, how they dare kill their betters... Bollocks, if you get f-ed up then You weren't that good. Snobism at its worst.

So, I can agree with that to a point, but only to a point. Because...

'You should have a much harder time of killing your betters' is the point of PvP. The base idea is, if you're better, you're supposed to win against the guy who is worse more way often. He shouldn't get a leg up on you with some special class or anything. He should just be wheat under your scythe, and if he wants to beat you more, he has to get on your level in skill. That's the point of playing against other people, and why the gameloop is so entertaining, cause of the challenge of improving and beating better people. I mean, I don't need to tell you this, IIRC this is what you liked about the game.

And the real thing of it in this case is, people don't get mad because 'this shitter killed me this one time and it was totally bs', at least not unless they're already tilted. They get mad when it's consistently easier. And because that's possible with that kind of skill disparity, the other less skilled players who aren't playing the easier thing, get an even worse experience. And that's where the real anger is. The reason WG is even trying to change what they are now isn't even cause of skilled players - we all adapted or quit long ago - it's cause the average guy is getting more and more fed up with the class balance inequality, cause it impacts him even harder. WG can no longer hide from their bad decisions lol.

[Itwastuesday]

Carrying a game in destroyer can be harrowing, doubly so if planes fly at you in 30 second intervals. Outside of scum classes, they're the strongest and most important and their supposed counter doesn't really function these days. 

Carrying a game in carrier is pretty chill though, even in harder games. 

While I do often give +1 to people who do the right thing no matter what they play as I believe playing correctly should be encouraged, I am not impressed by the carrier carry. 

IMO the problem with carrier design is that the execution involved is so simplistic and boring that the only way it can be fun if it's overpowered. Though at least they have made some attempts to make more lead time based cv armaments (rocket delay, long arming time torpedoes, skip bombs), just not enough. 

[UnderTheRadarAgain]

45 minutes ago, MnemonScarlet said:

Oh I know, I was one of the people who just didn't bother and waited for them to fix it. Too bad they didn't and just junked the whole system for the inferior alternative. The current damage farm minigame is just so mind blowingly boring.

As said in other posts, DDs are the next best thing after CVs due to the vision system and how badly implemented it is in this game, so I wouldn't be surprised if they get a balancing pass after WG is finished with the carriers and those changes sink in.

So, I can agree with that to a point, but only to a point. Because...

'You should have a much harder time of killing your betters' is the point of PvP. The base idea is, if you're better, you're supposed to win against the guy who is worse more way often. He shouldn't get a leg up on you with some special class or anything. He should just be wheat under your scythe, and if he wants to beat you more, he has to get on your level in skill. That's the point of playing against other people, and why the gameloop is so entertaining, cause of the challenge of improving and beating better people. I mean, I don't need to tell you this, IIRC this is what you liked about the game.

And the real thing of it in this case is, people don't get mad because 'this shitter killed me this one time and it was totally bs', at least not unless they're already tilted. They get mad when it's consistently easier. And because that's possible with that kind of skill disparity, the other less skilled players who aren't playing the easier thing, get an even worse experience. And that's where the real anger is. The reason WG is even trying to change what they are now isn't even cause of skilled players - we all adapted or quit long ago - it's cause the average guy is getting more and more fed up with the class balance inequality, cause it impacts him even harder. WG can no longer hide from their bad decisions lol.

Seems to me this 10 x better player is failing to learn to play the game better - just dodge. It's easy to dodge a scrub cv players badly aimed torp drops and the poorly timed rocket attacks and bomb drops. If that scrub cv player is besting that 10 x better player, then that 10 x better player is a cry baby who needs to learn to DODGE.

 

I am so effing tired of the entitled attitude some players have. It's pathetically childish. 

 

All I know is I am very average in every class of ship that I have played (I don't play subs because I don't like the way they are in the game). But when I can stand up to and either sink or screw up a unicum divisions game, even when it's a loss, I feel damn good about myself. I know they get salty because every time I have done it I have lost 2 or 3 karma points. The average unicum is a thin skinned crybaby in my personal opinion. I do not care if this offends. It's my honest opinion.

Edited May 20 by UnderTheRadarAgain

[MnemonScarlet]

31 minutes ago, UnderTheRadarAgain said:

Seems to me this 10 x better player is failing to learn to play the game better - just dodge. It's easy to dodge a scrub cv players badly aimed torp drops and the poorly timed rocket attacks and bomb drops. If that scrub cv player is besting that 10 x better player, then that 10 x better player is a cry baby who needs to learn to DODGE.

 

I am so effing tired of the entitled attitude some players have. It's pathetically childish. 

 

All I know is I am very average in every class of ship that I have played (I don't play subs because I don't like the way they are in the game). But when I can stand up to and either sink or screw up a unicum divisions game, even when it's a loss, I feel damn good about myself. I know they get salty because every time I have done it I have lost 2 or 3 karma points. The average unicum is a thin skinned crybaby in my personal opinion. I do not care if this offends. It's my honest opinion.

So, at some point, even if you're very good (better than me statistically), bad players will kill you. In fact, it's statistically more likely to happen often because there are simply more of them, and thus they will more often be the ones to take the last of your HP when the odds don't favor you. Almost no one actually cares about this, unless they are tilted already. It's the cheesy gameplay behind the asymmetric classes that bypasses a lot of the standard gameloop that people hate, and yes, average skill level (or god forbid, below average skill level) players hate it even more than good ones at the end of the day when they're also on the receiving end of it, because the latter adapt to those conditions better.

We're more talking about CVs, though. They're the stronger asymmetric class that have actual impact. Subs just suck and are there to really annoy a few players per match (occasionally this becomes you), and be a refuge for the torp DD players who are so hot for stealth/torp gameplay that they want an entire ship type predicated around it. Too bad you can't easily do early-game sub PvP anymore, those guys need their quiet time cause super stealth y'know.

[Admiral_Karasu]

10 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

I would be happy with a chance for "implosion" everytime a submerged Sub takes damage en the HP falls beliw a certain threshold

 

This would be cinematically incorrect. They twist and turn some valves and get sprayed in black goo and move onto the next scene.

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

On 5/19/2024 at 9:22 AM, Zaydin said:

Yeah no, you completely misinterpreted what I wrote. If you say anything remotely critical of DDs, you get torn to shreds.

People praise DDs that carry a game but have nothing but scorn for subs/CVs that do the same.

I dont really understand the point you're trying to make, but im guessing youre a Sub/CV main that is a bit B-hurt about not getting cred enough for carrying in those classes?!

 

Ive been a DD Main since 2015 and I carried my share (and probably some others share as well) of games in a DD. Many times single survivor against multiple enemies and still won the game.

I started to play more CVs and Subs when Subs got released and carried a whole lot of games in those as well. The difference for me is that when I do it in a DD my pulse is usually at heart attack levels at times and when I do the same in CV or Sub I usually have resting pulse, maybe even eating a sandwich while doing it.

Based on a skilled played (and NOT the majority of the WOW playerbase that mostly lack skill) Subs and CVs are pretty unbalanced when it comes to their spotting power and ability to do massive damage with little to no risk, DDs don't have that luxury.

In one game quite recent my team was loosing hard and I was playing Malta so I just set out to find/harass and kill the 3 remaining DDs, so I did and we won. Did I expect a medal ceremony or a parade for it? No, because I knew I played a BS class that had the ability to just do that, and I probably killed a DD player that had way better stats than me, but that didn't matter, because I played a CV.

In a DD, alone against many enemies I can die at any time if just some hydro/or radar from BB/cruiser/DD pops from behind an island from an un-spotted ship or just get spotted out of nowhere from any of the planes circling the skies from any BB/cruiser/DD (probably soon Sub) airplane hybrids or CVs for that matter. 

In a Sub I can just dive to 30 meters and laugh my azz off at the planes trying to find me while they cant see me and I can see them and spot them (for some strange reason) at all times. Hydro/radars, I just go to periscope depth and let my Watchful skill know when it safe to surface again. Easy breezy! 

CVs and Subs are "Easy street" (old Paperboy reference there), so that's maybe the reason they dont get so much love for using their unbalanced classes to "carry"

Edited May 20 by OldSchoolGaming_Youtube

[Itwastuesday]

40 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

In a DD, alone against many enemies I can die at any time if just some hydro/or radar from BB/cruiser/DD pops from behind an island from an un-spotted ship or just get spotted out of nowhere from any of the planes circling the skies from any BB/cruiser/DD (probably soon Sub) airplane hybrids or CVs for that matter. 

The triangle mafia war itself is ever increasingly dangerous. Various overpowered gunboats make short work of each other let alone lesser destroyers, many torpedo boats now carry ftl torps perfect for nailing other destroyers... The reason for games consistently to have 4 desteoyers dead by 5 minutes is because the class has been pushed to a meta where they just assassinate each other. 

[Andrewbassg]

2 hours ago, UnderTheRadarAgain said:

Seems to me this 10 x better player is failing to learn to play the game better - just dodge. It's easy to dodge a scrub cv players badly aimed torp drops and the poorly timed rocket attacks and bomb drops. If that scrub cv player is besting that 10 x better player, then that 10 x better player is a cry baby who needs to learn to DODGE.

 

Ah yes ..... the famous "just dodge" .... You know what else happens? The poor sob  also is spotted making him eligible to be fired upon.... So it doesn't matter how scrub the Cv player is....

 

2 hours ago, UnderTheRadarAgain said:

All I know is I am very average in every class of ship that I have played (I don't play subs because I don't like the way they are in the game). But when I can stand up to and either sink or screw up a unicum divisions game, even when it's a loss, I feel damn good about myself. I know they get salty because every time I have done it I have lost 2 or 3 karma points.

Sigh..... ok I'm game. Lets scrap skill, lets make a toss of a coin decide the outcome. Also the position on the board , right, coz why the eff not?  

Aactually.....i have a better idea. How about.... quotas? For every  number of games you are entitled to be on the winning side, also to be numero uno. And be proud 

But why stop there ,lets make that buyable. For a mere 2500 dubs U can buy a winning honeypot.... a genius "game" design.....

3 hours ago, UnderTheRadarAgain said:

is a thin skinned crybaby

I also don't like those  and try to prove em wrong. But using my own capabilities, not some other dishonest crap.

 

3 hours ago, UnderTheRadarAgain said:

. I do not care if this offends.

And people still wonder why people will hate Cv's ..... and take offence when is called a  griefing class, tailor made for...... some people.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

19 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

And people still wonder why people will hate Cv's ..... and take offence when is called a  griefing class, tailor made for...... some people

Technically, every class is a 'griefing' class...and the game as designed is for you to 'grief' the enemy team.

If griefing is not what you want...world of warships is not the game for you.

[UnderTheRadarAgain]

27 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Ah yes ..... the famous "just dodge" .... You know what else happens? The poor sob  also is spotted making him eligible to be fired upon.... So it doesn't matter how scrub the Cv player is....

And people still wonder why people will hate Cv's ..... and take offence when is called a  griefing class, tailor made for...... some people.

You implying I play CV's and am salty ... etc ?

 

No more than 100 cv games in randoms, nearly 5000 games in mostly cruisers and BB's. I do ok, not good, not usually crap at it. I know my job when I play CV is first - find that effing DD and hope someone shoots at it. The number of times I wasted an entire squadron keeping a DD spotted just for nobody to even shoot at it, that annoys me. Last time it happened, I told that flank they are on their own and I went to the other flank to support. That abandoned flank was all sunk by that DD who went on to get a kraken and 3 dev strikes. I gave him a +1 for it too - played a fine game. My team? Less so. We won the game. I had more spotting damage than actual damage - thats a good CV game in my opinion.

Edited May 20 by UnderTheRadarAgain

[Frostbow]

20 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Buying into the "rock, paper, scissors" concept was a foolish endeavor to begin with, in my opinion

I understand you, but it was Wargaming to begin with, that created that concept. It was a best fit concept, if I may say so. There is effective counter play. 

20 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

In real warfare the professionals talk about logistics more than "glory" and strive to ensure their side has a 3-to-1 advantage (at least) when attacking.
Fighting "fair" is not required. 

I know. However this is a game and not real warfare. 

[Andrewbassg]

29 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Technically, every class is a 'griefing' class...and the game as designed is for you to 'grief' the enemy team.

Well ....I think we need to differentiate between "combat" and griefing 

29 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

If griefing is not what you want...world of warships is not the game for you.

Being a cruiser main.........yeah don't think that applies.

 

My line of arguments (reductio ad absurdum)  was about how damaging  this line of "reasoning" could be. And actually is. 

Edited May 20 by Andrewbassg