The duality of the WoWS community.

[Aethervox]

1 hour ago, RX160S_Byarlant_Custom said:

try playing DDs? Maybe you will see that they are inherently unbalanced, if "inherently unbalanced" means staying alive while getting your concealment (your main survivability and playmaking point) picked apart by 69 other things in this game and being expected to cap, spot and on top of that, do meaningful damage. Submarines and CVs don't even play the same game as the 3 surface classes

This ^, tho, instead of 'unbalanced', I'd say DDs are the most 'challenging' to play. MO, ofc. 😀

Edited May 22 by Aethervox

[Zaydin]

2 hours ago, RX160S_Byarlant_Custom said:

Oh dear.

Why don't you try playing DDs? Maybe you will see that they are inherently unbalanced, if "inherently unbalanced" means staying alive while getting your concealment (your main survivability and playmaking point) picked apart by 69 other things in this game and being expected to cap, spot and on top of that, do meaningful damage. Submarines and CVs don't even play the same game as the 3 surface classes, so I'm not quite sure what the "double standard" is. As things stand currently DDs have far too much to deal with while also being the class with one of the highest impacts on the game. Is that what you mean by "DD bad?"

Or did you just come here looking for affirmation? 

 

I do play DDs. Unlike a decent chunk of the playerbase, I understand that the best way to learn how to counter something is to play it for yourself.

DDs are vastly superior passive scouts than carriers. Why? Because they can perform other tasks while spotting targets while a CV that is only spotting isn't doing doing damage, finishing off wounded ships before they can heal back up or resetting caps.

Oh, don't get me wrong, CVs are the better active scouts, that is, actively searching for a target, but DDs are by far the superior spotter in the long run. Carriers only provide spotting while their planes are overhead; so long as the DD is in spotting range of a surface ship, it will stay lit up unless the DD gets out of range or loses LoS on it.

[Itwastuesday]

I don't understand the complaint that destroyers spot the battleship. Spotting is their job. A lot (most?) of maps are really trash, so perhaps direct your complaint to whoever decided Okinawa, Ocean, Sleeping Giant etc are good maps for high-tier games. I hate my fellow battleship players for spectating islands, converging in the same square (especially if it's my square) and lemmingin, but I shouldn't. They're probably trying to find a place that's not dead middle in the map, where there is some cover and not a huge mountain that blocks you from shooting and they come up with nothing or just one possible spot.

When I started playing I played a lot of Fuso and learned that being spotted always is normal. You play kurfurst, you're spotted, it's fine. And now we have a bunch of bb's that outspot cruisers. If you're getting actually hammered in the opening stages of the game you either went too deep too early (battleships have the range and ballistics to function from a bit further, and there's no need to be anywhere except as far as possible from your other battleships early on) or you got unlucky and the entire enemy team lemminged toward you unspotted. 

The big destroyer imbalans is in-class balans. Some are wildly overpowered while others, ones that used to be balanced and fine are just victims. But for a battleship it doesn't really matter that much if the enemy triangle is Smålål or Gearing, only that they exist and you need help in dealing with them. I can understand some frustration, since this help barely ever exists due to cruisers being such a trash class. 

[Itwastuesday]

23 minutes ago, Zaydin said:

DDs are vastly superior passive scouts than carriers. Why? Because they can perform other tasks while spotting targets while a CV that is only spotting isn't doing doing damage, finishing off wounded ships before they can heal back up or resetting caps.

Carriers are statistically almost double superior spotters, and practically the carrier spots as a collateral and by deploying a consumable it doesn't care about. 

[RX160S_Byarlant_Custom]

32 minutes ago, Zaydin said:

I do play DDs. Unlike a decent chunk of the playerbase, I understand that the best way to learn how to counter something is to play it for yourself.

DDs are vastly superior passive scouts than carriers. Why? Because they can perform other tasks while spotting targets while a CV that is only spotting isn't doing doing damage, finishing off wounded ships before they can heal back up or resetting caps.

Oh, don't get me wrong, CVs are the better active scouts, that is, actively searching for a target, but DDs are by far the superior spotter in the long run. Carriers only provide spotting while their planes are overhead; so long as the DD is in spotting range of a surface ship, it will stay lit up unless the DD gets out of range or loses LoS on it.

Wait, you're saying DDs are bad for the game because they do their job?

The way DD spotting is superior is because it is constantly spotting on one flank, but it does not spot on demand nor can it spot across the whole map like a carrier can. Carriers also do not risk their own HP to spot like DDs do and a misplay typically does not cost them their ship like a DD, on top of counterplay options like hydro or radar being minimal issues to them (true to an extent on subs, before you say ASW can damage on near miss they now outturn destroyers and are more than able to dodge something with a 10+ second lead time). Meanwhile, all it takes is for a CV to accidentally fly over a destroyer for it to be permanently harassed and spotted for the next 2 minutes, in response it can use one of its precious smokes delaying its death for another 2 minutes and putting it at a tactical disadvantage or lose half its HP if not outright dying.

DDs are THE most overworked class in the game. Provide all the spotting, provide zoning, fight the enemy DD, cap etc, on top of having to deal with shenanigans like planes or radar means they have the most game impact while being one of the hardest classes to draw potential out of fully. And as others have pointed out there are actual counterplay options against them. 

[GandalfTehGray]

13 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

The rendered dot is too short in duration even for Mino guns, let alone for other ships . And in order to provide usable firing solution the pinging on the minimap would have to be super precise, which is not really doable....

Btw you people seem to forget the Wedgie themselves introduced the dot on the minimap. This mod merely renders it in plain view  🙂 

And THAT proves that there is no difference between minimap and plain view .

Could you record a short video of what this mod does? You posted like 5 posts about it but I don't get  your point. The still photo didn't make it clear either. 

[Itwastuesday]

19 minutes ago, RX160S_Byarlant_Custom said:

DDs are THE most overworked class in the game. Provide all the spotting, provide zoning, fight the enemy DD, cap etc, on top of having to deal with shenanigans like planes or radar means they have the most game impact while being one of the hardest classes to draw potential out of fully. And as others have pointed out there are actual counterplay options against them. 

Yeah. While I like my triangles, most days I'm too fatigued to play them. Trying to play ZF-6 after a workday and low quality sleep is just going to end in a miserable failure. 

[Beleaf]

3 hours ago, RX160S_Byarlant_Custom said:

Or did you just come here looking for affirmation?

You must be new to Zaydin threads

He will have a bad game in his battleship, then run to social media to post another whiny, passive-aggressive rant over HE and DDs.

Of course it's same old stuff you often hear from newer players, so at first it's met with the usual advice of proper DCP management and better positioning, etc. Zaydin comes back with his DD whataboutism and gets ridiculed.

Later claims the community is toxic

Repeat next week

Zaydin however is a major hypocrite. I guess toxicity is fine so long as its against DD players :^)

Edited May 22 by Beleaf

[RX160S_Byarlant_Custom]

18 minutes ago, Beleaf said:

You must be new to Zaydin threads

He will have a bad game in his battleship, then run to social media to post another whiny, passive-aggressive rant over HE and DDs.

Of course it's same old stuff you often hear from newer players, so at first it's met with the usual advice of proper DCP management and better positioning, etc. Zaydin comes back with his DD whataboutism and gets ridiculed.

Later claims the community is toxic

Repeat next week

Zaydin however is a major hypocrite. I guess toxicity is fine so long as its against DD players :^)

Actually, I have seen some of his threads on the WOWs Official discord. The ones @Unlooky have so kindly mentioned earlier. However, for the benefit of doubt, I do unfortunately tend to engage in these kinds of one-sided conversations.
 

21 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

Yeah. While I like my triangles, most days I'm too fatigued to play them. Trying to play ZF-6 after a workday and low quality sleep is just going to end in a miserable failure. 

people really say "i play wows to escape my life responsibilities" then queue as a regular DD

[Itwastuesday]

1 minute ago, RX160S_Byarlant_Custom said:

people really say "i play wows to escape my life responsibilities" then queue as a regular DD

Heh, takes a differently built man. I've been thinking about making a F3 Yamagiri guide, but can't get gameplay footage as that playstyle requires a bit more than 60% effectiveness me. 

[Navalpride33]

7 hours ago, Aethervox said:

Not sure what you mean by 'trouble' at T8+ for RTS CVs.

In context, tier 8 and above are high tiers. These were the tiers RTS CVs were to powerful for their own good.

[Admiral_Karasu]

DD's out spot BB's any day in open water conditions. Put a half competent DD player against the BB in a 1 on 1 setup and you will find out.

Now, that's for DD's and BB's, it would be cool to have those discussions in another duality thread maybe. Please be reminded to say on topic here in this discussion.

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

Guys, he´s clearly a Troll so please stop feeding him. Cant argue with .........

[SolitudeFreak]

31 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Now, that's for DD's and BB's, it would be cool to have those discussions in another duality thread maybe. Please be reminded to say on topic here in this discussion.

With all due respect, OP does this a lot.

The first post is a thinly veiled gripe about DDs, posted by a BB main.

The recent discussion to me feels more on topic than the CV minimap spotting discussion earlier in the thread.

30 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Guys, he´s clearly a Troll so please stop feeding him. Cant argue with .........

Poe's law being what it is, I can't say for sure.

[Admiral_Karasu]

18 minutes ago, SolitudeFreak said:

With all due respect, OP does this a lot.

The first post is a thinly veiled gripe about DDs, posted by a BB main.

The recent discussion to me feels more on topic than the CV minimap spotting discussion earlier in the thread.

Poe's law being what it is, I can't say for sure.

Well, the topic seems to be more of a triangle drama than about duality. Obviously, the discussion has sort of evolved since we are now on page 13.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

5 hours ago, Zaydin said:

I do play DDs. Unlike a decent chunk of the playerbase, I understand that the best way to learn how to counter something is to play it for yourself.

DDs are vastly superior passive scouts than carriers. Why? Because they can perform other tasks while spotting targets while a CV that is only spotting isn't doing doing damage, finishing off wounded ships before they can heal back up or resetting caps.

Oh, don't get me wrong, CVs are the better active scouts, that is, actively searching for a target, but DDs are by far the superior spotter in the long run. Carriers only provide spotting while their planes are overhead; so long as the DD is in spotting range of a surface ship, it will stay lit up unless the DD gets out of range or loses LoS on it.

Good CV players provide spotting with their fighters, not their strike planes...

[Andrewbassg]

5 hours ago, GandalfTehGray said:

Could you record a short video of what this mod does? You posted like 5 posts about it but I don't get  your point. The still photo didn't make it clear either. 

There is no need for. You know what the attention click is right? Shift+click on a  grid on the minimap to draw attention to it. This mod projects aka renders that click into plain view ( HUD), as a white dot.

And the point was, it proves that there is no difference between the minimap and the plain view ( HUD). And that's why they can't do minimap only spotting.

Edited May 22 by Andrewbassg

[Andrewbassg]

6 hours ago, Zaydin said:

CVs are the better active scouts

No. Cv's provide strategic recce, while dd's provide tactical recce. They are fundamentally different, not better.

That being said Cv;s can provide both strategic AND tactical.

Edited May 22 by Andrewbassg

[Aethervox]

5 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

These were the tiers RTS CVs were to powerful for their own good.

Your opinion. My opinion is that high tier reworked CVs are too powerful versus the other classes

[Aethervox]

7 hours ago, Itwastuesday said:

Ocean

'Ocean', the one map that actually shows what virtually all real naval battles were fought on is somehow 'bad'? ROFL 😁

[Wolfswetpaws]

12 minutes ago, Aethervox said:

Your opinion. My opinion is that high tier reworked CVs are too powerful versus the other classes

CV's are more expensive to purchase than BB's/Cruisers/DD's/Submarines of the same tier.
CV's "pay" for their capabilities at time of purchase and with every service cost.
CV players "pay" for the capabilities by having to endure the verbal "slings & arrows" of toxic chat and negative opinion forum posts on a regular basis.

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

4 hours ago, SolitudeFreak said:

Poe's law being what it is, I can't say for sure.

[ArIskandir]

6 hours ago, Beleaf said:

Zaydin however is a major hypocrite. I guess toxicity is fine so long as its against DD players :^)

 

5 hours ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Guys, he´s clearly a Troll so please stop feeding him. Cant argue with .........

 

4 hours ago, SolitudeFreak said:

Poe's law being what it is, I can't say for sure.

Doesn't mean there ain't some truth on OP's statememt...

I can gun down 2-3 BBs in a Tashkent with very little risk to myself and honestly little effort, and I'll be praised. 

If I Shotgun a couple BBs in a Sub, even at a potential greater risk and similar level of effort, I'll be loathed.  

There's a clear double Standard.

[SolitudeFreak]

47 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Doesn't mean there ain't some truth on OP's statememt...

A broken clock can be right twice a day. But the same broken clock can also be wrong.

"Destroyers need to be removed from the game.

All they destroy is fun. Because we all know how fun it is to have to choose between dodging walls of skill or getting smashed in your broadside by the BBs waiting on you to dodge.

It's like choosing between getting shot in the heart or in the head. It's always fun getting punished for attempting to do something in the toxic meta WG has encouraged."

-Verbatim topic title and first post in the discord game-discussion-forum that the broken clock made.  — 10/05/2023 10:45 PM

So how should I read into that? Is me playing Fletcher the toxic easy mode that phrasing makes it out to be?

Why would I listen to the occasional valid point in a discussion about DDs when I know this is where it's coming from? I've said before I don't like interacting with CVs, but I at least understand there's a reason they are the way they are. They have to be able to play the game. Even if i hate getting dabbed on by them I'm not gonna sit here and say, 'sure, delete CVs', because at the end of the day, my main gripe with them is that I'm mad at the game, and that's a stupid argument. I'm at least self aware enough to see that.

On the other hand, the broken clock argues from a point of frustration, and that's used as justification for saying ridiculous things. This post says I shouldn't be allowed to play the game. Fletcher only destroys fun, and it's gotta go. The post says everything about the topic I need to know - that there is no argument I can make, because my preferred class is simply toxic, and I am wrong.

That's why I read into the first post of this thread the way I did, and why I made a post clearly mocking it. I see no merit in it because I don't think it's a good faith argument.

On 5/19/2024 at 7:27 AM, SolitudeFreak said:

Bonus points: they get mad enough to start threads about the 1 key.

I've said this before. It's not what you say. It's how you say it.

[ArIskandir]

6 minutes ago, SolitudeFreak said:

A broken clock can be right twice a day.

It's just this. Don't take it as if I'm shouldering the whole argument. 

8 minutes ago, SolitudeFreak said:

I see no merit in it because I don't think it's a good faith argument

It really isn't important if it was made in good faith or not, the underlying useful data point is for this player there's no Big difference between being sunk by a Sub or a DD. From his perspective it is equally Bad.