Money Wins!

[ArIskandir]

2 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

This is what the EU EULA has to say on this.

 

Observations: 

• The consequences for a breach are discretional "We reserve the right to suspend access to your Account or to close your Account and terminate this EULA". This is in no way a "law" with a directly correlated punishment. WG keeps the right to proceed the way they consider appropiate
• It is a recognized fact WoWS keep game clients open is venues like museums, event booths, etc. These accounts are in fact and by definition shared accounts and are officialy endorsed by WG, even if "technically" it is in violation of the EULA.
• It becomes evident the whole purpose of preventing account sharing is preventing any potential revenue loss. Losing potential revenue is the "true crime", not account sharing per se. If somehow the account sharing event leads to more revenue instead of losing revenue, then it is evident that particular account sharing event is not infringing the "spirit of the law". 

2 hours ago, aleksi111 said:

Regarding EULA

If WedGie were to ignore flagrant, open and confessed, breach of EULA it would set precedent for legal cases going forward.

Not really, it is within WG's prerrogative to take any punitive action or not. The punitive action is voluntary not compulsive. 

2 hours ago, aleksi111 said:

...so yeah, While this Whale is likely correct in their assesment about WedGie caring, they kinda dropped the ball by flat out saying it. It's one thing to carry on, bussiness as usual, when it's just suspicions and heresay.

Entirely another when someone cries their confession from top of the tower.

Not really. This event didn't cause WG to lose any revenue, on the contrary the player paid to increase traffic on the server. 

[ArIskandir]

4 hours ago, Viridem said:

Otherwise, I expect him to be the kind of person to sell you bread laced with sawdust and alum (to take a "tame" example), and not only have no guilt about it, but blames you for buying it, and asks to be thanked for the lesson he taught you...

I guess you are not too familiar with Chinese culture and bussines practices. There's actually a chinese language term for the behavior you just described (I can't remind it atm) and it isn't "shameful" within their culture. Basically the onus for not being stupid lies on you, if you get tricked it was your fault for not taking proper care.  Not all the world works under Protestant morality ethos. 

If you ever had trading relations with Chinese companies, you should be aware of the following phenomenon: The test/first batch of the product you comissioned will be top notch quality... if you are not careful, in time you'll notice the quality of your product will diminish: cheaper materials, worse finishing, etc. This was not an uncommon practice. 

Edited May 11 by ArIskandir

[PrairiePlayer]

4 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

I guess you are not too familiar with Chinese culture and bussines practices. There's actually a chinese language term for the behavior you just described (I can't remind it atm) and it isn't "shameful" within their culture. Basically the onus for not being stupid lies on you, if you get tricked it was your fault for not taking proper care.  Not all the world works under Protestant morality ethos. 

If you ever had trading relations with Chinese companies, you should be aware of the following phenomenon: The test/first batch of the product you comissioned will be top notch quality... if you are not careful, in time you'll notice the quality of your product will diminish: cheaper materials, worse finishing, etc. This was not an uncommon practice. 

This is very, very true.  I had a Shanghai-native boss for several years and he used to tell me about Chinese business culture.  Among other things, he said that Chinese businessmen are always amazed at the concept of Western "fair-play" (they essentially thought it was a self-imposed weakness).  He also said that Chinese had rules about cheating family or close friends, but everyone else was fair game.  

[Ducky_shot]

26 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Not really. This event didn't cause WG to lose any revenue, on the contrary the player paid to increase traffic on the server. 

Technically, that does cost the company money...

I just chuckle when I see people gaming WG contests now, considering one of their (now) CM's gamed one of the first forum contests that I can remember. Technically collusion wasn't listed in the rules of the contest, but as it is in the overall EULA, they took the prize away. I remember it being one of the first big drama's on the forum way back when I started playing.

[ArIskandir]

5 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

Technically, that does cost the company money...

I'm curious how?

 

[Ducky_shot]

3 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

I'm curious how?

 

They are paying for the server. So the more players they have, the bigger and more servers they need.

[ArIskandir]

4 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

They are paying for the server. So the more players they have, the bigger and more servers they need.

Well yes, there's an associated cost but I don't seen them directly 'losing revenue' because of it. As far as I understand, increased server traffic at this point is a desired occurrence (considering the general trend of dwindling server numbers). 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

The part that drives player angst is the continued insistence in the marketing that the playing field is level...that paying doesn't increasing winning chances.

That being a lie creates angst in the player community.

[ArIskandir]

7 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

The part that drives player angst is the continued insistence in the marketing that the playing field is level...that paying doesn't increasing winning chances.

That being a lie creates angst in the player community.

Living under a capitalist society, you should be more than used to dealing with that angst...  Land of the free, equality of opportunities, fair and equal justice... what a joke!

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

7 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Living under a capitalist society, you should be more than used to dealing with that angst...  Land of the free, equality of opportunities, fair and equal justice... what a joke!

Indeed.

You would expect businesses operating in that environment to expect their customers to bitch about advertising statements that deny this reality.

After all, the mobs did violently overthrow cultures that tried to maintain letting the rich egregiously abuse the poor.

This issue is entirely up to WG to fix. Expecting the customers to conform to WG leadership view on something like this is the height of incompetence.

Stop blaming the players for things that are WGs to fix.

[Admiral_Karasu]

Please, try to stay on the topic.

[Wolfswetpaws]

4 hours ago, Asym said:

Oh my, it goes on everyday all over the world !!!! 

Think about it:  you own a videogame store and new buyers want to "sample" a game.....  It's the owner's actual account the others are playing !!!   As I have reported many times, I have a gamer that lives "across town" and his Grand Daughter plays this account.  And, the posse of my grandson's cohort didn't all have their own accounts !!!  How the heck do you think they were playing at the tier levels in Randoms they were !  Sigh.......

There are US/foreign corporations that have high tech conference rooms where employees play team videogames at lunch or after work !  There are even corporate teams !!!

If what was reported is true......and, we may never really know, it is an amazing way to make money !!!  And, the rest of us simply get "let them eat cake" from our host ! 

Want to bet our host is actually marketing to that techno savvy and huge market.- where the culture drives innovative solutions......????

OMG Wolfie, so naive....

I suppose one must ask where the line gets drawn between "free sample" and TOS/EULA violation that would be actionable if there were enough evidence and WG/WOWs wanted to seriously crack-down upon it?

If I am naive, then I welcome your accurate intel about what's going on.

[Asym]

23 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I suppose one must ask where the line gets drawn between "free sample" and TOS/EULA violation that would be actionable if there were enough evidence and WG/WOWs wanted to seriously crack-down upon it?

If I am naive, then I welcome your accurate intel about what's going on.

If our host "cracks down',  what do you think that will do to the "bottom line"...... 

I don't share.  But, rest assured, a great many others do in all sorts of fashion !  If half of what has been reported on the winners of that event, this is a much larger and deeply cultural event many probably did not see coming.....  Some cultures place "winning" much higher than we do in the West.  To the point that, "how" isn't even explored...  That's old news.  Just look at the Olympics over the decades and chasing the win using "facades", especially gender,  is all over the place ! 

Corporate America.....OMG.  My Dad told me stories that I never believed and yet, when I retired from the Military, he only told me one-tenth of the reality !!

Places of Worship..........OMG.  I have a relative whom works for a denomination at the US level.  It's......almost unexplainable at best....

As the saying goes:  "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying...."

From 'Coach Up Nation', November 2022:

"One of the oldest adages in sports, “If you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying,” is often considered as a measuring stick for what actions are allowed within the boundaries of sportsmanship. On one hand, blatant cheating is typically caught by officials and is frowned upon by all. On the other, an athlete doing anything in their power to win—including trying to stretch the rules—is typically admirable. I’m not condoning cheating by any means, but the parameters of the phrase had to be made clear for today’s topic to make any sense."

And, we are in the same Paradigm in this game.....  We have hard rules and yet..............

Edited May 11 by Asym

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Well that's an interesting statement. 

Now my doubt is, wth is a "kryptonite player"?

I was curious about the meaning of "kryptonite player", too.

Here's what I found...
https://www.espn.com/fantasy/hockey/fhl/story?page=NHLDK2K8_kryptonite

Quote

"Fantasy Hockey Kryptonite: Just. Can't. Resist.

• ESPN Fantasy Staff

Sep 23, 2008, 02:40 PM ET

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

That is one of the most famous -- and often misquoted -- decrees of the 20th century, attributed to the philosopher George Santayana. Since Santayana died in 1952, years before the advent of fantasy sports, he was never able to see the irony of that statement as it relates to what we call fantasy Kryptonite.

Fantasy Kryptonite can best be described as the weakness an owner has for certain, often underachieving, players. Year after year, these players show enough of their considerable potential, either in training camp or early in the season, to urge owners to waste a draft pick or a high waiver position on them. These owners should know better, but they just can't help themselves. No one is immune to their personal biases, and even we, the fantasy hockey scribes at ESPN.com, are susceptible to giving the same player a chance in spite of disappointments in seasons past.

In order to give you a better idea of some of the repeat Kryptonite players, and why we still love them, we've enlisted the help of our fantasy hockey experts:  ..."

If I'm wrong, then I hope someone will correct me.  🙂 

[Wolfswetpaws]

4 minutes ago, Asym said:

27 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I suppose one must ask where the line gets drawn between "free sample" and TOS/EULA violation that would be actionable if there were enough evidence and WG/WOWs wanted to seriously crack-down upon it?

If I am naive, then I welcome your accurate intel about what's going on.

If our host "cracks down',  what do you think that will do to the "bottom line"...... 

I don't share.  But, rest assured, a great many others do in all sorts of fashion !  If half of what has been reported on the winners of that event, this is a much larger and deeply cultural event many probably did not see coming.....  Some cultures place "winning" much higher than we do in the West.  To the point that, "how" isn't even explored...  That's old news.  Just look at the Olympics over the decades and chasing the win using "facades", especially gender,  is all over the place ! 

Corporate America.....OMG.  My Dad told me stories that I never believed and yet, when I retired from the Military, he only told me one-tenth of the reality !!

Places of Worship..........OMG.  I have a relative whom works for a denomination at the US level.  It's......almost unexplainable at best....

As the saying goes:  "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying...."

From 'Coach Up Nation', November 2022:

"One of the oldest adages in sports, “If you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying,” is often considered as a measuring stick for what actions are allowed within the boundaries of sportsmanship. On one hand, blatant cheating is typically caught by officials and is frowned upon by all. On the other, an athlete doing anything in their power to win—including trying to stretch the rules—is typically admirable. I’m not condoning cheating by any means, but the parameters of the phrase had to be made clear for today’s topic to make any sense."

And, we are in the same Paradigm in this game.....  We have hard rules and yet..............

 
 

[Wulf_Ace]

and then we says its gaming companys fault , no , look its us players that are dumb, as long as there are people like him they will not care about the game itself just about making money.

he wanted to be first by not even playing the game, what is there to say to that?

Sad day.

[majmac]

3 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Well that's an interesting statement. 

Now my doubt is, wth is a "kryptonite player"?

Perhaps it means that this game is their weakness in that they will put all their resources into it to get every thing it offers.

[_KlRlTO_]

This cheat is a much bigger issue than many of you realize, yet WG is letting it pass because it's an indirect cheat to the primary game model. The problem is all about "Pay to Win" 

Fundamentally, World of Warships is pushed as a Free to Play model where the revenue is made through game acceleration and customizations, where Premium ships funstion as one or both of those things. This is why when a premium ship is clearly over powered, it is removed from sale. The reason this is done is because competitive MMO games are often measured for competition endorsements by how fair the competitive environment is, and most streamers and streaming services are reluctunt to be an active part of a game that rewards money over skill. Wargaming is actively trying to maintain this game model.

Now let's look at this incident. The cheater involved paid people to play his account and boost the numbers. Note that this primarily affected the reults of a competiion that was for all intents a side event and not the primary game itself. The outcome of battles in game modes wasn't actually being affected by this cheat in any way that simple skill wouldn't overcome. What the cheat was doing was increasing the number of battles played to earn the grand prize of a side event. This doesn't hurt the main competitive focus of the game, so it doesn't break "Pay to Win" in the way that typically hurts MMO games.

However, WG still needs to punish this player to protect their economic model. Sure, it may seem to be against their business interest in the short term, but in the bigger picture, a cheat like this can kill a company once it is widely known. If an event like this is going to be won by a cheater, then players will no longer particapate in any such events and won't spend any related money on it. Only the cheaters will continue, and this brand of cheating isn't really making enough money for WG to balance against the players leaving in the bigger picture. WG needs to punish this player, and do so very publicly, as a show of good faith to their player base in non-Chinese markets. Even most Chinese players would be loathe to play if the big money is just taking everythig for themselves, even if it is an accepted part of the culture. Everyone else besides the cheaters would just move on to something with better fair play.

Edited May 11 by _KlRlTO_

[a252]

There is a Chinese idiom:  悶聲發大財 (Stay silent when making fortune). This guy will probably gone under weegee's radar if he didn't bloat how he did it in a forum.

For me:

I don't care too much about this cause I am sitting at ~4600 mark, I am nowhere near the actual prize except for the consolation prize. I know I am just an accompanying runner in competition like this as I value my mentality, even if I do have time to grind all day long I won't bother.

I am suspicious that most player near top 100 range are either have no life, doesn't care about mental burden of grinding, or using unconventional method like sharing accounts or botting. I am not surprised that the same thing will happen all over again next time as long as this is a competitive game and the player base has not die down significantly.

Anyway, the prize pool (beyond 500 community token) is too small to convince me to participate.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

2 hours ago, _KlRlTO_ said:

Wargaming is actively trying to maintain this game model.

I disagree. Personally, I think WG is trying to appear to maintain the game model while actually pursuing something else.

The actions I've observed indicate WG wants the ACTUAL model to be pay2win, as the target audience of their marketing seems to be people who will pay for advantage in the actual game...not like other companies who try to monetize the cosmetics heavily.

2 hours ago, _KlRlTO_ said:

Sure, it may seem to be against their business interest in the short term, but in the bigger picture, a cheat like this can kill a company once it is widely known. If an event like this is going to be won by a cheater, then players will no longer particapate in any such events and won't spend any related money on it.

Yup.

This was already true with this event...as past events of this type were clearly won by botting, and WG was reluctant to do anything about that at the time.

Why participate if the event is clearly not for you?

I didn't participate at all in it.

But WG leadership don't think this far ahead into the effects of their decisions and actions.

They cover their incompetence by blaming the customers...which is ANOTHER poor decision.

The amount of money and goodwill these guys leave on the table because of their own incompetence is STAGGERING.

[WES_HoundDog]

DUDE!

It's a battleship for Winnerz!

 

We are all Losers!  

And never had a chance of winning anything even if there was no cheating going on.   

Edited May 12 by WES_HoundDog

[UnderTheRadarAgain]

I usually get mocked and made fun of when I mention this, but here goes anyway.

 

A number of months ago, in conversation on discord with a Chinese player (private messaging) he explained the main reason why he refuses to spend any money on this game anymore. He told me the Chinese marketplace has a lot of apps for cheating in games. Mostly automation stuff, but that is amateur level as he explained it, rather it's one particular app called Warpack (English translation of actual Chinese name). He described it as a user activated application using Wargaming's own UI and button presses to activate wargaming code. Kind of like Dead eye on command, and Dazzle on command type thing. We know dead eye was "removed" but obviously the code is still there, and is probably the code being used by Bongo's magic spotter plane.

It's NOT an aimbot, don't be confused about that. This is some high level code probably written as a thesis for a Chinese university PHD degree. Sold only on the Chinese marketplace (behind the great firewall of China 🤐).

I can't say one way or the other if this Chinese player (who I will not name as it was told to me in confidence in a discussion about spending cash on the game) has used the app, he didn't confirm either way, all I know is it exists and is used by Chinese mainland nationals on servers outside of mainland China.

 

China has a lot of incredibly talented people, I mainly see this expressed in the modding community - games like Skyrim and Fallout 4. I see no reason why coding isn't also at the same incredibly high level as well. It's not a secret that Chinese people excel at academia. 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

2 minutes ago, UnderTheRadarAgain said:

It's not a secret that Chinese people excel at academia. 

When the talent pool has an order of magnitude more people, it's no surprise that there are simply more talented people.

I think it's less that there is some hereditary trait...and just a function of how many people there are in China.

[UnderTheRadarAgain]

Just now, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

When the talent pool has an order of magnitude more people, it's no surprise that there are simply more talented people.

I think it's less that there is some hereditary trait...and just a function of how many people there are in China.

Agreed. However I have seen so much evidence of Chinese parents placing a lot of pressure on their kids to get the highest grades on offer. This includes the kids I went to school with in South Africa and Australia. It's definitely a cultural thing as well as a consequence of population size.

[WES_HoundDog]

Just now, UnderTheRadarAgain said:

Agreed. However I have seen so much evidence of Chinese parents placing a lot of pressure on their kids to get the highest grades on offer. This includes the kids I went to school with in South Africa and Australia. It's definitely a cultural thing as well as a consequence of population size.

Applying yourself works wonders.   And not applying yourself kinda does the opposite.