Haarlem - Advice

[Guest]

personaly  i play haarlem to support and defensive

[BOBTHEBALL]

9 hours ago, Gaelic_knight said:

sorry BOB but your starting to sound like a broken record  and dont know how to best play dutch cruisers . yes theres a few dutch cruisers that dont play well but when you get to haarlem  you can start to see there potential .

@ArIskandir has been bring up good points but your still not listening

You're starting to sound like you can't handle the facts, she's not very good. I'm not going to continue on this topic further.

[Unlooky]

9 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Here we have a fundamental disagreement on perspectives. Escorting team mates can be not only efective (imagine having a good player dedicated to supporting You and helping You overcome the shortcomings of your ship and maxing out your potential) but one of the most rewarding experiences in this game.   

How. Staying in formation with someone else 3km may look cool, but is actively a detriment to your team outside of aforementioned end game destroyer/sub/CV hunting scenarios. By doing so you are making it far easier for the enemy to angle and present their strongest armor to a single bearing instead of creating crossfires as one should with proper play. This is not a game about tight formations and close co-ordination, and playing it like one does more to hinder your team than help.   

[ArIskandir]

49 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

How. Staying in formation with someone else 3km may look cool, but is actively a detriment to your team outside of aforementioned end game destroyer/sub/CV hunting scenarios. By doing so you are making it far easier for the enemy to angle and present their strongest armor to a single bearing instead of creating crossfires as one should with proper play. This is not a game about tight formations and close co-ordination, and playing it like one does more to hinder your team than help.   

There's obviously a huge number of different scenarios and situations, and there's some subtlety to how to support a team mate. Let's take for example an on topic Dutch CA (Harleem) escorting a BB in a CV match: 
 

You can start by playing 3 km ahead of the BB in order to intercept incoming aircrafts. The planes will spot you and then will have to decide if they attack you, circle/go through you or go pester somewhere else... all choices favor you and help protect your friendly BB, you'll take damage but that's when the tankyness of Harleem helps you survive. Meanwhile your BB mate is safe and free to chew whatever is shooting you. 

Say some time has passed your team has the advantage and decide to push into the Cap. You move up to provide AA cover and support to your DD, you entrench behind islands near the cap and use your airstrikes to dislodge any nearby enemy.

Meanwhile your BB mate moved over the flank to get some cross shots, if not suicidal you move your CA in a path to intercept torps or planes going from the center to your BB, now you are some 3-4 kms on the flank of your BB mate. 

Now your BB mate decides to make an aggressive push, you can let him lead the charge and stay on its heels 2-3 km behind, or if more convenient you open to the flank to keep him safe from cross torps or planes while letting him do the damage dealing while you take opportunity shots. 

Just "being there" provides the needed flank security for your BB mate to do their "thing", you are not even required to deliver significant damage as long as your BB is in position to devastate the enemy (thanks to you making/keeping the position safe). You can take pot shots and bait the enemy into shooting you just to go dark the moment the line you up, after 2 or 3 instances of making them waste time, they'll be reluctant to aim at you opening the window for you to being more aggressive (and annoying). You also have the Airstrike card to deliver attacks without breaking concealment. 

If things go bad and your BB needs to pull back, you play rearguard 3 kms in front and buy time for it to retreat and heal, if you need to die in order to keeping him safe, that's your job (assuming the BB skill level is decent enough to justify the trade). 

If things go your way, you push some 2-3 km ahead to screen the BB's advance... it's all very dynamic depending on what your team and the enemy do. It's not as simple as keeping formation at 3 km from your team mate, but you'll be close enough to help them. 

Some examples on playing an escort role:

JdW providing AA cover to Musashi

D7P Providing AA support to a push:

Bearn providing fighter cover and spotting:

Cossack keeping and ASW screen:

Kidd providing support and screening for a friendly CL:

 

Edited May 13 by ArIskandir

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

42 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

How. Staying in formation with someone else 3km may look cool, but is actively a detriment to your team outside of aforementioned end game destroyer/sub/CV hunting scenarios. By doing so you are making it far easier for the enemy to angle and present their strongest armor to a single bearing instead of creating crossfires as one should with proper play. This is not a game about tight formations and close co-ordination, and playing it like one does more to hinder your team than help.   

Depends on the context.

In a map with limited pass throughs for ships AND shells, being in the close vicinity to my Minnesota on our flank meant the enemy couldn't rush the Minnesota and take advantage of the fact that our DD had gone into the CAP and was not supporting us. The pair of us could be on the flank and not be punished by the enemy CV because I could make that very expensive.

I could take more risks positionally because Minnesota was there to punish things that wanted to hurt me. The enemy couldn't use their islands to hide behind because my airstrikes could punish them.

That pushed their flank back to a standing hold...and our DD then massacred their DDs that tried to take the cap...and then we pushed. End of battle.

Now, this is in randoms, not clan or KotS.

I agree with you in clan or KotS...you need all of your ships to be able to function and fight independently. That's why Haarlem is 'bad.'

But for randoms, it's a different story.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

You're starting to sound like you can't handle the facts, she's not very good. I'm not going to continue on this topic further.

good you dont know what your talking about so take your record of your player  and leave it as that . 

 

[Unlooky]

19 minutes ago, Gaelic_knight said:

good you dont know what your talking about so take your record of your player  and leave it as that . 

 

Genuinely curious why you think Haarlem is good. Surely you have some new justification, or super unicum stats to bring to the table.  

 

57 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

There's obviously a huge number of different scenarios and situations, and there's some subtlety to how to support a team mate. Let's take for example an on topic Dutch CA (Harleem) escorting a BB in a CV match: 
 

You can start by playing 3 km ahead of the BB in order to intercept incoming aircrafts. The planes will spot you and then will have to decide if they attack you, circle/go through you or go pester somewhere else... all choices favor you and help protect your friendly BB, you'll take damage but that's when the tankyness of Harleem helps you survive. Meanwhile your BB mate is safe and free to chew whatever is shooting you. 

Say some time has passed your team has the advantage and decide to push into the Cap. You move up to provide AA cover and support to your DD, you entrench behind islands near the cap and use your airstrikes to dislodge any nearby enemy.

Meanwhile your BB mate moved over the flank to get some cross shots, if not suicidal you move your CA in a path to intercept torps or planes going from the center to your BB, now you are some 3-4 kms on the flank of your BB mate. 

Now your BB mate decides to make an aggressive push, you can let him lead the charge and stay on its heels 2-3 km behind, or if more convenient you open to the flank to keep him safe from cross torps or planes while letting him do the damage dealing while you take opportunity shots. 

Just "being there" provides the needed flank security for your BB mate to do their "thing", you are not even required to deliver significant damage as long as your BB is in position to devastate the enemy (thanks to you making/keeping the position safe). You can take pot shots and bait the enemy into shooting you just to go dark the moment the line you up, after 2 or 3 instances of making them waste time, they'll be reluctant to aim at you opening the window for you to being more aggressive (and annoying). You also have the Airstrike card to deliver attacks without breaking concealment. 

If things go bad and your BB needs to pull back, you play rearguard 3 kms in front and buy time for it to retreat and heal, if you need to die in order to keeping him safe, that's your job (assuming the BB skill level is decent enough to justify the trade). 

If things go your way, you push some 2-3 km ahead to screen the BB's advance... it's all very dynamic depending on what your team and the enemy do. It's not as simple as keeping formation at 3 km from your team mate, but you'll be close enough to help them. 

All the support ships I previously listed are capable of doing exactly this (with some skilled helmsmanship), minus the airstrike, but with multiple times the damage output instead and utility to zone enemy destroyers, both of which are infinitely more useful. Frankly every cruiser in the game can do what you described. 

It does not matter how many defensive gimmicks you have, if your offensive ability is as abysmal as Haarlem's, you simply have a bad ship.  

 

[BOBTHEBALL]

40 minutes ago, Gaelic_knight said:

good you dont know what your talking about so take your record of your player  and leave it as that . 

 

Calm down young one, there's no need to get angry.

[ArIskandir]

11 hours ago, Unlooky said:

All the support ships I previously listed are capable of doing exactly this (with some skilled helmsmanship), minus the airstrike, but with multiple times the damage output instead and utility to zone enemy destroyers, both of which are infinitely more useful. Frankly every cruiser in the game can do what you described. 

It does not matter how many defensive gimmicks you have, if your offensive ability is as abysmal as Haarlem's, you simply have a bad ship.  

Let me clarify, I'm not trying to convince you Harleem is a "good" ship. I understand why a ship with poor offensive capabilities would be considered bad under "standard" parameters. I consider blanket judgements of 'good' or 'bad' ship, limited simplifications, so I prefer to use "good for' or 'bad for' depending on the role/mission profile. Harleem can perform escort duties with acceptable proficiency, it doesn't matter for her individual appraisal if other ships are more capable or 'better'... following that limited  line of thought we would only play the most effective ship class as nothing else would be optimal and make sense. 

Above all, the point I'm trying to make is the general validity of playing support oriented roles in the game. 

[Unlooky]

4 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Let me clarify, I'm not trying to convince you Harleem is a "good" ship. I understand why a ship with poor offensive capabilities would be considered bad under "standard" parameters. I consider blanket judgements of 'good' or 'bad' ship, limited simplifications, so I prefer to use "good for' or 'bad for' depending on the role/mission profile. Harleem can perform escort duties with acceptable proficiency, it doesn't matter for her individual appraisal if other ships are more capable or 'better'... following that limited  line of thought we would only play the most effective ship class as nothing else would be optimal and make sense. 

Above all, the point I'm trying to make is the general validity of playing support oriented roles in the game. 

I mean, ships don't exist in a vacuum. You're going to be directly competing against one of your same tier and class counterparts. I try to avoid calling ships bad but at mid tiers the balancing is given such a low priority that such massive balance discrepancies make it impossible. If your ship is just worse than your opposite for nearly all situations with very few methods of outplaying them, you just have a bad ship. 

[ArIskandir]

29 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

If your ship is just worse than your opposite for nearly all situations with very few methods of outplaying them, you just have a bad ship.

That's an interesting outlook, objectively it is valid, but I remind you that by design the particular environment in which the ship will operate is ever changing and somewhat unpredictable. Courtesy of the multi-tier MM system, situations where your ship is outclassed (as in "just worse than your opposite for nearly all situations with very few methods of outplaying them") are rather common and expected... even a 'good' ship would become 'bad' accordingly to the environment. So being 'good' or 'bad' is not an intrinsic characteristic of the ship but a function of the environment and consequently also a function of the role you are called to play. 

29 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

ships don't exist in a vacuum. You're going to be directly competing against one of your same tier and class counterparts.

Indeed. And the ship most favoured by the specific battle environment would have the advantage, regardless of the general characteristics the ships. The favored is the ship that fits better the particular environment, not necessarily the 'best' ship.

For example, I could argue Harleem can handle better being uptiered to T10 than Baltimore, because of the heal and the ability to pseudo-invisifire and apply DoT on larger targets. 

Edited May 13 by ArIskandir
Sorry if I come out as contrarian or academic, I just enjoy a smart conversation and I'm having fun with our exchange

[Guest]

16 hours ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

Calm down young one, there's no need to get angry.

young one ????????? im anything but young 

[Unlooky]

On 5/13/2024 at 4:02 PM, ArIskandir said:

That's an interesting outlook, objectively it is valid, but I remind you that by design the particular environment in which the ship will operate is ever changing and somewhat unpredictable. Courtesy of the multi-tier MM system, situations where your ship is outclassed (as in "just worse than your opposite for nearly all situations with very few methods of outplaying them") are rather common and expected... even a 'good' ship would become 'bad' accordingly to the environment. So being 'good' or 'bad' is not an intrinsic characteristic of the ship but a function of the environment and consequently also a function of the role you are called to play. 

While that's true, not every ship gets outclassed to the same degree. Certain aspects uptier worse than others, namely survivability, while ships with strong firepower tend to perform adequately in uptiers. For example, Mainz is decently equipped to handle uptiers thanks to her high HE pen and raw damage output, but in an uptier, a ship like Haarlem has the armor of a regular tier 10 cruiser with what are effectively tier 7 guns and an airstrike. 

 

On 5/13/2024 at 4:02 PM, ArIskandir said:

For example, I could argue Harleem can handle better being uptiered to T10 than Baltimore, because of the heal and the ability to pseudo-invisifire and apply DoT on larger targets. 

A stealth radar that even tier 10 DDs would have to respect is far more useful than a ship that might set a permafire every 70 seconds. 

[ArIskandir]

26 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

A stealth radar that even tier 10 DDs would have to respect is far more useful than a ship that might set a permafire every 70 seconds. 

While very useful in theory, getting that stealth Radar to work in a T10 match is heavily situational and always very risky. It's potential usefulness is significant but the event occurance will be very low. Otoh, it is relatively simpler and safer for Harleem to apply some DoT on targets, being DoT an HP% function, targeting T10s becomes far more productive.

 

Going back to my original point: The effectiveness of a ship is not an intrinsic value but a function of the environment and role it is called to play. I present you the following example:

Sample A: 

Sample B: 

Same ships, same player, similar samples... how do you explain the extreme differences?

[Unlooky]

13 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

While very useful in theory, getting that stealth Radar to work in a T10 match is heavily situational and always very risky. It's potential usefulness is significant but the event occurance will be very low. Otoh, it is relatively simpler and safer for Harleem to apply some DoT on targets, being DoT an HP% function, targeting T10s becomes far more productive.

 

Going back to my original point: The effectiveness of a ship is not an intrinsic value but a function of the environment and role it is called to play. I present you the following example:

Sample A: 

Sample B: 

Same ships, same player, similar samples... how do you explain the extreme differences?

A stealth radar is not situational. If you are spotted, you use it. Unless you go the entire game without being spotted, you will get value out of your radar. Even when its not active, its a 10km zone that enemy destroyers must respect. 

Baltimore also has superior damage output when positioned properly behind an island in a tier 10 game, since her DPM and fires per minute far exceeds anything Haarlem could attempt even with airstrikes. 

 

As for your two samples, it seems clear to me that the second sample was either played in a triple division or with godly luck. Having that a winrate that high while having that low of damage and kills does not indicate towards a particularly skilled player, and since this is the same player(?) the first sample set of data accurately reflects the winrate one would expect. 

 

 

 

[ArIskandir]

7 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

As for your two samples, it seems clear to me that the second sample was either played in a triple division or with godly luck. Having that a winrate that high while having that low of damage and kills does not indicate towards a particularly skilled player, and since this is the same player(?) the first sample set of data accurately reflects the winrate one would expect. 

The stats are my own, you are welcome to check. Both samples are Solo, sample A is regular Randoms. Sample B is for Ranked CV seasons. The difference is the environment, in one environment the relevance of a AA support/escort role is critical. The other not so much. 

The example showcases how the importance of a support Role (thus the effectiveness of a ship) can be vary dramatically depending on the environment. Even if the ship can be considered 'bad' on a standard setup, it can be very good when played to its strenghts on a favorable role and environment. 

[Unlooky]

3 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

The stats are my own, you are welcome to check. Both samples are Solo, sample A is regular Randoms. Sample B is for Ranked CV seasons. The difference is the environment, in one environment the relevance of a AA support/escort role is critical. The other not so much. 

The example showcases how the importance of a support Role (thus the effectiveness of a ship) can be vary dramatically depending on the environment. Even if the ship can be considered 'bad' on a standard setup, it can be very good when played to its strenghts on a favorable role and environment. 

Ah, Ranked. That makes more sense. The smaller match size and guaranteed same tier matchmaking does make it more favorable for bad ships. I'll concede that it can work there (especially with those insane average plane kills, do CV players still not understand Dutch AA is good??) but it doesn't change the ship from being bad. An extremely niche role in a niche mode doesn't really elevate a ship out of the garbage territory. I'm pretty sure this thread was started in the context of Random Battles anyways. 

[ArIskandir]

19 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

guaranteed same tier matchmaking does make it more favorable for bad ships.

Just for clarification, the Ranked sample includes mixed tier seasons (Silver at T8-T9 tiers).

 

Anyway, the role is niche of course but valid as long you can manipulate/select a suitable environment. Even in a Randoms context, if you can setup favourable conditions (example Diving up with a CV to force a CV match) you can make the role useful.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

I played this battle in Haarlem today. Bottom tier in a mostly tier 10 match.

Managed to top my team XP on a loss, which I suspect means that my team was awful based on my limited contributions.

Any advice would be helpful. I'm still struggling to get good performances out of this ship.

20240830_084904_PHSC108-Haarlem_54_Faroe.wowsreplay

[Ensign Cthulhu]

On 8/30/2024 at 10:43 AM, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I'm still struggling to get good performances out of this ship.

She's obviously a pain point for you; why bash your head against a wall trying to make her better? 

Where are you in the grind? Set yourself a daily minimum XP quota and an end date, finish the damn thing and move on. If you're past her already, forget about her for a while. You're only hurting yourself at this point.

 

[Asym]

7 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

She's obviously a pain point for you; why bash your head against a wall trying to make her better? 

Where are you in the grind? Set yourself a daily minimum XP quota and an end date, finish the damn thing and move on. If you're past her already, forget about her for a while. You're only hurting yourself at this point.

 

OP.......the Ensign has given you some sage advice..........right ^^^^^ there. 

All of us who grind have a "ship from Hades" that makes even playing this game a chore.  Mine was the Amagi for some reason.... Almost, made me quit the game.

But, "all things shall pass" and, when it is snowflake time...........well, it's one ship that will never leave the port.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 hour ago, Asym said:

OP.......the Ensign has given you some sage advice..........right ^^^^^ there. 

All of us who grind have a "ship from Hades" that makes even playing this game a chore.  Mine was the Amagi for some reason.... Almost, made me quit the game.

But, "all things shall pass" and, when it is snowflake time...........well, it's one ship that will never leave the port.

EC hates me and actively trolls me. I have purposely hidden his replies and do not care to listen to his drivel. I have long experience to know that it is worthless advice.

I'm trying to make the best of a bad ship, because I pride myself on learning it. I'm still slowly accumulating XP on her and the captain...and I will continue to play it until I reach enough XP to go up to the next ship.

I have no intention of skipping the game. If WG wants to pretend Haarlem is in a good state...than I am giving the spreadsheet good data on just how dumb their reliance on poor balancing to drive monetization can be.

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

EC hates me and actively trolls me. I have purposely hidden his replies and do not care to listen to his drivel. I have long experience to know that it is worthless advice.

I'm trying to make the best of a bad ship, because I pride myself on learning it. I'm still slowly accumulating XP on her and the captain...and I will continue to play it until I reach enough XP to go up to the next ship.

I have no intention of skipping the game. If WG wants to pretend Haarlem is in a good state...than I am giving the spreadsheet good data on just how dumb their reliance on poor balancing to drive monetization can be.

The last two paragraphs I think are "all well and good".

I happen to think that @Ensign Cthulhu isn't "actively trolling" you.  He's communicating in his own manner.
Sometimes that "rubs people the wrong way" and sometimes he speaks or types while his passion is hot & strong and the words chosen might be a bit rough and less than cordial & diplomatic.
But, the words are heartfelt and tend to erupt from feelings which care about the topic at hand.

I think both of you are smart.

While our perspectives and positions on various topics may align at some times and differ at other times, we're all members of a great forum.

Would it be possible to fine some emotionally medicinal salve to ease the pain of raw nerves which have been feeling rubbed the wrong way?

I'm trying to find ways for us all to "get along", here.  🙂 

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 hours ago, Asym said:

OP.......the Ensign has given you some sage advice..........right ^^^^^ there. 

All of us who grind have a "ship from Hades" that makes even playing this game a chore.  Mine was the Amagi for some reason.... Almost, made me quit the game.

But, "all things shall pass" and, when it is snowflake time...........well, it's one ship that will never leave the port.

My "grind" of the Izumo felt like a long slog, at the time.
But, on balance, it helped me learn about the Izumo and grow to appreciate her virtues and quirks.
And the experience inspired some creative writing, upon ulocking the tech-tree Yamato.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

One can sometimes get away with the stupidest crap in co-op. Slow and steady eats away at the grind.

https://youtu.be/0hDofmAQuuE

My feelings at the end of this battle can best be summed up by the following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-wxpol5ytQ

 

Edited September 1 by Ensign Cthulhu