How can this be helped / remedied - let's openly discuss the biggest problem in WoWs - the absolute player base rock bottom degradation / decay

[Asym]

2 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

There is a *huge* difference between being an officer or enlisted person in the military, someone who "signed a contract", versus being a "civilian" who is not required to adhere to military orders.

This is why the incentives must be crafted for a person to feel rewarded enough to continue.
Because a game player can quit at any time for any reason.  They're under no contractual obligation to stay.

Really?  A huge difference between an officer and enlisted in the military.....  Oh Gosh, I never knew ! 

Well, I do understand the word "Fiduciary" and lived that way for over two decades...  Yep, have that merit badge.

**  Incentives only work if they are indispensable to new players....   What is that>?    Premium Time is a basic to get a new F2P player started !

[Jakob Knight]

I think there is one possible solution, though how it would work in practice and/or if it would work is unknown ( I have doubts ).

 

My own conviction is the players who do not want to become better will not.  As noted, this is a game, not the military, so we cannot force people to become better or wash out.  And I think we can all agree that passive instruction videos and posts have not produced the results we want to see (as noted, no feedback in the training, so no improvement possible unless the person is motivated and perceptive enough to do it themselves).

 

So what might be needed is a certification program for players where a board of expert players and/or staff review a player's play and decide if the player meets standards.  If they do, they gain a unique in-game patch addition ( a small star at the top ) and a 5 percent discount in the Armoury as long as they maintain the certification (which can be removed by proof of incompetence or misbehavior).

 

Such a program would require a sizable number of expert players willing to serve on the 'Naval Boards' and at various times and a commitment on participating players to attend review sessions.  It would also be a slower and more paper-intensive program than an automated/passive one.  But it would be voluntary on the part of the players and offer incentives which won't be significant enough to make those players who want to ignore it feel they are being snubbed.

 

This is about the only idea I have to mass-produce a raise in player skill that is both voluntary and motivating beyond just getting better (since that seems to be felt not enough on its own).  

 

The question is if the issue is large enough that WG and the Community decide it is worth the time and resources required to fix.

 

 

Edited April 29 by Jakob Knight

[Wolfswetpaws]

4 minutes ago, Asym said:

Really?  A huge difference between an officer and enlisted in the military.....  Oh Gosh, I never knew ! 

Well, I do understand the word "Fiduciary" and lived that way for over two decades...  Yep, have that merit badge.

**  Incentives only work if they are indispensable to new players....   What is that>?    Premium Time is a basic to get a new F2P player started !

 
 

[Asym]

2 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

I think there is one possible solution, though how it would work in practice and/or if it would work is unknown ( I have doubts ).

... 

The question is if the issue is large enough that WG and the Community decide it is worth the time and resources required to fix.

It is my belief that WG will have nothing to do with it.  They got rid of their own Forum to lessen costs and remove discoverable liability. 

I am not sure a business case would even help because, they are attempting to downsize WOWS not create new structure...  The old formula:  M =P (Marginal equals Pass) is where they are.  Even though, retaining new players seems like a good business idea, the devil is in that they really don't want "more structure..." IMO.

I don't think, even with all of the CC's they support, they'd even go there with DEVSTRIKE....

Have they approached us?

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

6 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

I think there is one possible solution, though how it would work in practice and/or if it would work is unknown ( I have doubts ).

 

My own conviction is the players who do not want to become better will not.  As noted, this is a game, not the military, so we cannot force people to become better or wash out.  And I think we can all agree that passive instruction videos and posts have not produced the results we want to see (as noted, no feedback in the training, so no improvement possible unless the person is motivated and perceptive enough to do it themselves).

 

So what might be needed is a certification program for players where a board of expert players and/or staff review a player's play and decide if the player meets standards.  If they do, they gain a unique in-game patch addition ( a small star at the top ) and a 5 percent discount in the Armoury as long as they maintain the certification (which can be removed by proof of incompetence or misbehavior).

 

Such a program would require a sizable number of expert players willing to serve on the 'Naval Board's and at various times and a commitment on participating players to attend review sessions.  It would also be a slower and more paper-intensive program than an automated/passive one.  But it would be voluntary on the part of the players and offer incentives which won't be significant enough to make those players who want to ignore it feel they are being subbed.

 

This is about the only idea I have to mass-produce a raise in player skill that is both voluntary and motivating beyond just getting better (since that seems to be felt not enough on its own).  

 

The question is if the issue is large enough that WG and the Community decide it is worth the time and resources required to fix.

 

 

I have my doubts about such a board.
But, you've outlined some of the potential pitfalls already (finding willing people, finding the money to pay for the implementation and sustaining the complex process without driving players away).
That said, I can understand why the idea may appeal to a portion of the population.

[Jakob Knight]

26 minutes ago, Asym said:

It is my belief that WG will have nothing to do with it.  They got rid of their own Forum to lessen costs and remove discoverable liability. 

I am not sure a business case would even help because, they are attempting to downsize WOWS not create new structure...  The old formula:  M =P (Marginal equals Pass) is where they are.  Even though, retaining new players seems like a good business idea, the devil is in that they really don't want "more structure..." IMO.

I don't think, even with all of the CC's they support, they'd even go there with DEVSTRIKE....

Have they approached us?

 

 

I agree, but the only way to reach the majority of players in the game is through the game, and that means WG has to have a part in it, especially any incentives that have any weight for the playerbase.

 

My doubts are that WG would believe it's a problem worth addressing in the first place, that we would have enough players willing to take on a second job as reviewers on the scale needed, that the admin could be done without some kind of mess up, and that we'd get reviewers who could not be susceptible to breaking the system for profit, love, or just the thrill of it.

 

So, while I think it's a possible solution and the one that best addresses the problem, I don't think it's a likely solution that can be implemented without alot more commitment than just 'My team sucks!  Do something about it!' .

 

 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 hour ago, Jakob Knight said:

I think there is one possible solution, though how it would work in practice and/or if it would work is unknown ( I have doubts ).

 

My own conviction is the players who do not want to become better will not.  As noted, this is a game, not the military, so we cannot force people to become better or wash out.  And I think we can all agree that passive instruction videos and posts have not produced the results we want to see (as noted, no feedback in the training, so no improvement possible unless the person is motivated and perceptive enough to do it themselves).

 

So what might be needed is a certification program for players where a board of expert players and/or staff review a player's play and decide if the player meets standards.  If they do, they gain a unique in-game patch addition ( a small star at the top ) and a 5 percent discount in the Armoury as long as they maintain the certification (which can be removed by proof of incompetence or misbehavior).

 

Such a program would require a sizable number of expert players willing to serve on the 'Naval Boards' and at various times and a commitment on participating players to attend review sessions.  It would also be a slower and more paper-intensive program than an automated/passive one.  But it would be voluntary on the part of the players and offer incentives which won't be significant enough to make those players who want to ignore it feel they are being snubbed.

 

This is about the only idea I have to mass-produce a raise in player skill that is both voluntary and motivating beyond just getting better (since that seems to be felt not enough on its own).  

 

The question is if the issue is large enough that WG and the Community decide it is worth the time and resources required to fix.

 

 

It might work if they start small...like with specific tournament play applications...then at least the concept doesn't turn away the casual player and is detailed for competitive play...

...but it still requires WG to put some effort into something in game, which has not happened for a long, LONG time. Literal years.

[GandalfTehGray]

3 hours ago, Asym said:

*  Incentives only work if they are indispensable to new players....   What is that>?    Premium Time is a basic to get a new F2P player started !

New players always used to be encouraged to get premium time over a ship, but I think if we want it to be a big enough carrot it should be a combination of the two similar to the campaign structures for Halsey/Yamato. 

 

I don't think a player run "board" would work, it was hard enough organizing play sessions when I was recruiting for clans. 

 

A how to series but set up like small parts of an operation with smaller rewards for easy tasks and then larger ones and a total completion of training would be how I would do it. I think it would need to unlock right before a new player hits real random battles (200 battles below T5) so it does not prevent people from jumping straight in. 

Easy trainings(gunnery training, ship steering/manuervers,armor basics,HE vs AP and when to use it, torpedo basics, consumables basics, ship detection basics). These award the crates that hold 24 hour premium time. Final reward 10k coal

Medium trainings (Overmatch basics, Ship angling, deep water torpedoes, CV/sub basics, AA mechanics,understanding point structure to win games, consumables best usage- when to Radar, when to hydro etc, how to spot as a dd/sub, how to support your vision providers as cruiser/BB, how to do all of the above as CV :p.

More premium time crates, final reward T6 Crate. 

 

Hard trainings: AA traps, using smokescreens for your team, blind/anticipated torps, high tier cruiser overmatch, how to tank but not suicide, long range gunnery, and more tbd.

 

Coal and T7 crate final reward. 

[iDuckman]

8 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

You probably know all this anyway...

Yeah, of course.  But the producers aren't brainless.  They see something that works actual money can be spent.

Linking classes to rewards is the best suggestion I've heard, but it's not that simple.  There's the production cost of the lessons, as there would be anyway.  And there must be an infrastructure to track player participation.  Developers are scarce on the ground atm.

Another thought was Tiktok.  No, not the tentacle of the CCP, but short shorts.  Asym's classical techniques take time.  Some gamers will begrudge even 5 minutes.  However, I'm not convinced that you can pack enough into 20 seconds to make it worthwhile for more than the most basic topics.

 

[iDuckman]

7 hours ago, Asym said:

Have they approached us?

No, and we chased off the ones that came in an unofficial capacity.

 

[Pugilistic]

49 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

No, and we chased off the ones that came in an unofficial capacity.

 

That was a sorry/not sorry thing tbh

[Asym]

1 hour ago, iDuckman said:

Yeah, of course.  But the producers aren't brainless.  They see something that works actual money can be spent.

I can't see a business case coming out of this endeavor....  It goes the opposite direction our game host intends:  >> young adults with Mom's/Grandma's eCards....  We are getting real Arcade'y of late....

The game is stalled because of old content and bad decisions.  And, no one to do the real work new content requires. So, population reflects the quality of the product:  stalled, no growth, locked in the Red Ocean with nothing Blue Ocean on the horizon...  (I am not sure you understand the difference between Red and Blue Ocean paradigms.... I hope you do though !)

Gosh, the fallback, if I had a say, would be to create volunteer cohorts and train by divisioning in real Random or COOP matches....  Old school but, it is free....

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 hours ago, iDuckman said:

No, and we chased off the ones that came in an unofficial capacity.

 

Personally, I'm saddened that the "chasing off" happened.
Whatever and whoever was the impetus for the "chasing off", it still results in fewer good people who can hang-out here.

Edited April 29 by Wolfswetpaws

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

2 hours ago, iDuckman said:

No, and we chased off the ones that came in an unofficial capacity.

 

That was inevitable, unfortunately.

It's rather amusing to me that WG staff continue to believe that the reason they are "chased off" of all media platforms they don't own is because of the players.

The only constant across all those media outlets is WG staff themselves.

People don't accept obvious sales propaganda...and the CMs have not been skilled enough to understand that the playerbase isn't as dumb as they believe.

Edited April 30 by Daniel_Allan_Clark

[Andrewbassg]

3 hours ago, iDuckman said:

No, and we chased off the ones that came in an unofficial capacity.

 

Nobody chased off anybody. They've came right after the old forums closure and people, quite understandably, were upset.

Still..... there is a lil problem called "conflict of interests". Their job is, quite literally, to represent the company. We want to speak freely about da issues. You see where I'm getting with this? The question is how to solve this conundrum. So yeah....

I mean: "because In order to be able to think , you have to risk being offensive."

 

 

Edited April 30 by Andrewbassg

[oldblackdog]

3 hours ago, iDuckman said:

No, and we chased off the ones that came in an unofficial capacity.

 

No, "we" didn't. They don't come here because they don't like a place where they have no control.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 hour ago, oldblackdog said:

 

No, "we" didn't. They don't come here because they don't like a place where they have no control.

Sadly, this is likely the case...though I bet they don't understand why there is an issue with the conflict of interest.

[Justin_Simpleton]

22 hours ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

I chose to start a new account on the EU and follow the training steps videos that were provided.  The training seemed to be much better than 4 years ago which tells me WG is trying.  The training seems to lack preparation for Random battles in that it doesn't go into how to interact with team mates other than to say you can.

 

On 4/29/2024 at 12:07 AM, iDuckman said:

On 4/28/2024 at 6:17 PM, BOBTHEBALL said:

My idea is just having a great in-game tutorial, we know WG won't do that.

Don't say they won't.  Certain CMs and I have been wracking our brains to come up with a tutorial format that is not only effective but that players will watch. 

It looks to me that WG is starting an in-game tutorial using missions with rewards.  I don't remember seeing this four years ago.  This tutorial is pretty effective teaching how to use the game features.  This format could be a jumping-off point for learning how to play.

[HogHammer]

1 hour ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

It looks to me that WG is starting an in-game tutorial using missions with rewards.  I don't remember seeing this four years ago.

Actually, the in-game tutorials have been there for as long as I can remember.

However, the issue may be an overall lack of awareness of this feature.

The only way to get to it is by hitting the escape key or the setting icon. Also, for some reason, it is not highlighted.  I have talked to several people about this, including a former WG employee, who had no idea it (tutorial button) even existed.

I would consider these tutorials "getting your feet wet" type instructions. For the most part, real in-depth game knowledge has relied on third-party sources. Here, there was no coordinated effort to consolidate the more advanced tutorials, for which a forum would have been an ideal location.

We are still building up this information/data in our guides section:

world of warships guides :: devstrike

The issue here, however, is really two-fold.  (1) Due to changes in the game, information may be outdated, and (2) the actual amount of time the staff can devote to reviewing and importing/linking.  Also, the overall decline in the number of these more advanced tutorials submitted, in my opinion, has declined over the past several years.  I noticed that this was reflected to a large degree in the old forums, which was a source for me at least to understand the mechanics of the game with the goal of improving.

[Zysyss]

On 4/24/2024 at 4:47 AM, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

How can this be helped / remedied - let's openly discuss the biggest problem in WoWs - the absolute player base rock bottom degradation / decay

 

This was Brawl game - but the stats are from "Random" games - they show the real truth about WoWs player base:

 

The main (and sad) point is absolutely terribad player base even with players with tens of thousands of Random games played... 😞

 

What can be done?

Can WG finally introduce some learning / training missions for players to properly learn the basics (aiming, positioning, reading minimap)?

 

Leo "Apollo11"

Sadly, the cat has been let out of the bag, never to be put back in. It ran away and is drinking Mai Tai's on a beach somewhere. WG let this happen, hoping all these baddies would spend tons of money, and I doubt very much they will ever do anything about it. 

[iDuckman]

3 hours ago, Zysyss said:

Sadly, the cat has been let out of the bag, never to be put back in. It ran away and is drinking Mai Tai's on a beach somewhere. WG let this happen, hoping all these baddies would spend tons of money, and I doubt very much they will ever do anything about it. 

What the hell are you talking about? 

 

[Admiral_Karasu]

17 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

What the hell are you talking about? 

 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

22 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

What the hell are you talking about? 

 

I believe he is talking about the inevitable consequences of WGs monetization strategy.

[Jakob Knight]

9 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I believe he is talking about the inevitable consequences of WGs monetization strategy.

 

Hmmm.  I think that's going out in left field pretty far.  Players who spend money can be expert or newbs, and the newbs could get better at the game or stay as clueless as a player who doesn't spend a cent because they don't care enough about the game to do so.

 

I don't care what a player is driving, but I care a lot how they are driving their ship.

 

Unfortunately, as long as players are free to be as bad as they want to, we'll keep getting players who treat the game as Candy Crunch Boat Spam.

 

 

[iDuckman]

26 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

Candy Crunch Boat Spam.

New mode !!!