How can this be helped / remedied - let's openly discuss the biggest problem in WoWs - the absolute player base rock bottom degradation / decay

[Jakob Knight]

12 minutes ago, clammboy said:

I'm sorry but I have to disagree a bit here. There are plenty of armatures who have tried there best to learn there crafts and cared as much as anyone but did not have the physical or mental tools to succeed at the professional level.

While there are plenty of professionals who were blessed with physical and mental skill who just skated to success with out much effort. Not all mind you I agree some do it by sheer determination but it's just not as cut and dry as you put it IMHO.  

 

Which is why I termed people who put their best effort in Initiates to differentiate them from the Amateurs who just don't try in the first place.  There are going to be differing levels of skill each person is going to be able to reach by their talents, skills, and level of dedication...that is natural and part of any profession.  No matter how hard I train, I will never be an Olympic athlete, but I would still do better than someone who won't even try.

 

This game, despite what might be common accepted assumption by many, is not a hard game to play well.  It is not complicated, nor difficult to understand...that is the beauty of its design as an arcade hybrid.  Anyone of average ability can do well in it if they are dedicated to do so.  But that determination has to be there.

 

I accept we may disagree on this, and I guess the proof is in the pudding.  Regardless of what either of us think, the game is what it is, and it will harvest the wheat from the chaff, as it were.

 

 

[MnemonScarlet]

13 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

How can this be helped / remedied - let's openly discuss the biggest problem in WoWs - the absolute player base rock bottom degradation / decay

Any attempt to fix this issue via skill bracketing/skill requirements to heavily incentivize improvement or whatever would've had to be done like 9 years ago when this game launched - it's way too late now. And anyway, those would not have been perfect solutions (but then nothing is). And as for education, no effort at education will have the effect you want, due to how the game's progression works. There just isn't enough of an incentive possible via that route to make enough players learn to make a real difference.

So we're left with just the idea of farm the clueless players, and turn your brain off when you get a critical/unwinnable mass of them to save your own stats (if you care about that). And finally, have a good laugh to yourself when they complain about losses wishing someone would carry them.

Edited April 24 by MnemonScarlet

[Unlooky]

12 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

How can this be helped / remedied - let's openly discuss the biggest problem in WoWs - the absolute player base rock bottom degradation / decay

 

This was Brawl game - but the stats are from "Random" games - they show the real truth about WoWs player base:

 

The main (and sad) point is absolutely terribad player base even with players with tens of thousands of Random games played... 😞

 

What can be done?

Can WG finally introduce some learning / training missions for players to properly learn the basics (aiming, positioning, reading minimap)?

 

Leo "Apollo11"

You're also playing brawls: that mode attracts a number of braindead morons, the type to yolo their BB into the cap after 4 minutes and then complain about passive play when they inevitably get farmed. When I played brawls I noticed my teams were of significantly lower quality (I use PotatoAlert.) As braindead as random teammates can be, somehow Brawls teams are significantly worse. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

29 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

I listen to anyone who posts here.  We all carry our biases with us, including myself.  That doesn't mean we're wrong or right in what we say, only that everyone should check what we say to make their own opinion on what we say.  My own opinion on the matter is drawn from my own experience of the incident and what I have read since that time, not just one person's thoughts on the matter, and I was careful to note that I am open to correction on the facts of I got them wrong because I was not directly involved (aside from a voluntary embargo on WG I maintained until certain criteria were met).  

 

This forum is here for all of us to speak and be heard.  As long as we do so in a civil manner, I believe all should be heard.  We don't have to agree with what is said, and we are free to just as civilly point out why we do or don't.  That's civilization.   I prefer it over the alternatives.

 

 

Well said.

[MBT808]

17 hours ago, Project45_Opytny said:

The game is at least relatively difficult to learn and master

Generally, I'd actually say its easy to learn, difficult to master. Cause the basics aren't a problem I think for most people and on the surface its deceptively simple(the early tiers are very simple without any of the more complicated gimmicks that show up starting at tier VI+, which I think is part of the problem). If you take mechanics one at a time, I think it can be learnt without much effort. Absorbing and memorizing the vast quantity of ships is where we run into problems. I've said this many times here and I'll say it again, but people have to be willing to do the homework in order to improve. Spending hours just looking at ships armor schemes, memorizing numbers such as fire rate and concealment, looking at/tinkering with various builds, and knowing their consumables(and how they are utilized).

It was easier when the game was in its first few years, but the ever growing nature of the game make this a near insurmountable mountain for new players to overcome. Which, in the ADHD era we live in, most people aren't willing to do. If it ain't going a million miles an hour or can't be explained in the span of a youtube short, many people aren't going to stick around(or get good at the game).

16 hours ago, SolitudeFreak said:

Probably nothing. Players have always been terrible. Just lost two 'Defense of Naval Station Newport' operations in a row. Teams didn't have a clue, and that Op literally tells you what to do.

Not really, there have always been poor players yes, but not the same degree as we're seeing now. If you consider the mass exodus of many veteran players during the CV rework and Sub introduction, the players used to have been better on average. Blow outs happened, but not with the same frequency as we see now. I'd say it was maybe 1 in 10 games were blow outs pre-CV rework, where as now its reversed. Like I pointed out for Project45, this game has become huge and most people aren't willing(or don't have the time perhaps) to do the homework to get better.

16 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

The only real solution for us is to migrate to better games...or make / support direct competitors.

Alright, @HogHammer need to find some developers for Devstrike the video game(the totally legit and legally different game, most certainly not a WoWs clone).

Edited April 25 by MBT808

[Arcus_Aesopi]

Hopefully WG's apparent attempt to push their products toward e-games will force them to reduce the RNG and other silly anti-competitive stuff (magic speed, anti-detonation flags et al...) to allow for actual engaging play in randoms.  Until it becomes interesting as a surface combat game, I'll stick to the pve shoot-em-up randomness.

[WES_HoundDog]

8 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

Wargaming didn't make me the player I am today.  Wargaming didn't teach me how to play the game or how to defeat the opposition I faced.   Wargaming didn't create the problems that came from my bad decisions in a match.

 

So I agree with you that looking to Wargaming to fix the problem is not going to produce a solution.  That isn't where the problem exists, so neither is that where a correction to the issue will be found.

 

 

You drew a crooked line that completely missed the point of my statement.

[MrWastee]

- same old same old, as old as the game....

- can't be overcome from our side. nothing we discuss will change this. wg does it or not... (while things like a player initiated "boot camp" never came to life, though being brought up. guess it's easier to complain lol, for this i do not even need to read this bazillionth thread on this topic ^^)

- probability is exactly that: probability. which can be overcome. can't count the times going into a mtach with a mate with mmm, telling me at the start "we lost already". just to end up on any kind of win, from barely carried to absolute steamroll...

 

SOLUTION:

uninstall mmm if u "rely" on it. problem solved

[HogHammer]

6 hours ago, MBT808 said:

Alright, @HogHammer need to find some developers for Devstrike the video game(the totally legit and legally different game, most certainly not a WoWs clone).

Oh, no problem...will get right on it.

[Jakob Knight]

5 hours ago, WES_HoundDog said:

You drew a crooked line that completely missed the point of my statement.

 

No.  I made my own statement patterned after yours to show why I agreed with your statement that WG is not where a solution is to be found.  I disagreed with the rest of your argument, and I'm afraid that you seem to have missed that.

 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

6 hours ago, Arcus_Aesopi said:

Hopefully WG's apparent attempt to push their products toward e-games will force them to reduce the RNG and other silly anti-competitive stuff (magic speed, anti-detonation flags et al...) to allow for actual engaging play in randoms.  Until it becomes interesting as a surface combat game, I'll stick to the pve shoot-em-up randomness.

This seems like a forlorn hope to me.

[GandalfTehGray]

On 4/24/2024 at 2:28 PM, ArIskandir said:

 Since performance in this game has no direct and real consequence over real life, I think the approach I'm suggesting is sound. 

It actually does quite often, if I need 1k base xp or 1 million silver I'm generally hopping on Operations and hoping to knock that out in one game. If I'm lucky with the bad teams were wiped in 5 minutes ,if I'm unlucky it's gonna go the whole 20 mins for a loss and now I'm in for another 20 mins rather than going to bed. 

 

Lucky for me I've got thousands of blue boosts and flags, a newer player trying to finish those missions doesn't have that luxury unless they've whaled the crates. 

[MBT808]

12 hours ago, HogHammer said:

Oh, no problem...will get right on it.

[ArIskandir]

1 hour ago, GandalfTehGray said:

It actually does quite often, if I need 1k base xp or 1 million silver I'm generally hopping on Operations and hoping to knock that out in one game. If I'm lucky with the bad teams were wiped in 5 minutes ,if I'm unlucky it's gonna go the whole 20 mins for a loss and now I'm in for another 20 mins rather than going to bed. 

 

Lucky for me I've got thousands of blue boosts and flags, a newer player trying to finish those missions doesn't have that luxury unless they've whaled the crates. 

Quite annoying but easily mitigated by accounting for that situation and alocating time accordingly.

[GandalfTehGray]

2 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Quite annoying but easily mitigated by accounting for that situation and alocating time accordingly.

Ah yes, I should just play the game and grind the tasks rather than working.  

It's really not possible some weeks in my work, 7 days straight with getting there as early as 6am and staying until midnight or later. So obviously in those situations I'm already tired and fighting sleep to play any. 

[clammboy]

4 hours ago, GandalfTehGray said:

Lucky for me I've got thousands of blue boosts and flags, a newer player trying to finish those missions doesn't have that luxury unless they've whaled the crates. 

Yea I guess that's the price you pay for a free to play game that you just started either whale up or play more. 

[Pugilistic]

On 4/24/2024 at 7:04 AM, Type_93 said:

Nothing. The majority of the player base has no concept of the game other than shooty Pew pew pixel boats. These players enjoy the game because they get to sail their favorite historical ships into battle, they have no intentions of “learning” the game.  
Those of us who do put effort into becoming proficient at the game just have try and carry.
 

Agreed, but this was made worse by the Playerbase Rework^TM

[Andrewbassg]

On 4/24/2024 at 12:59 PM, Ensign Cthulhu said:

These are the things they should be doing in early co-op. But the real problem is that some people don't want to learn, and even if you made it mandatory it would be like the real world and driving cars. Some people sit their lessons, pass their test and STILL go on to be awful drivers all their lives. 

YOU CANNOT FORCE THE PLAYERBASE TO BE TRAINED TO A STANDARD THAT MEETS YOUR DESIRES.

Nnope. That's a misconstruction. Not providing enough incentives  and in fact removing incentives AND learning tools is the problem. And it is entirely Wedgie's making and, in fact, a quite obvious and no so secret goal of them.

WHEN will victimblaming be enough ?

[Andrewbassg]

On 4/24/2024 at 2:04 PM, Type_93 said:

Nothing. 

Nah.....there are quite a few steps that can be taken.

[Andrewbassg]

On 4/24/2024 at 4:37 PM, Kruzenstern said:

The only way I see to somewhat fix players being bad because they can is denying them rewards for failure. Starting at some tier (like, 5), if someone does terrible. he should not get 500 base XP, not 200, not even 1. He should get zero. Same for credits. That is the only thing I can think of that might motivate unwilling people to learn, because unless they get better they will never progress.

No. That would punish everybody, regardless how he plays. And will drove away equally bad and good players. In fact people who play a shooty pew pew game will simply not care. That would be collective punishment and that's impossible to implement in a, randomly constituted "team" game

BUT if under a certain threshold rewards would be nullified AND under an even  lower threshold people would be "attentioned"........that's a different story.

However, that's NOT gonna happen, because that's contrary to Wedgie's interests AND goals.

[Andrewbassg]

On 4/24/2024 at 2:44 PM, pepe_trueno said:

The problem i see is that there is little to  no reward for being good so players have little to no incentive to improve.

*removal of flags for achievements

*RNG: players learn more from their failures than from their succes, RNG and shady mechanics turn everything into a gamble so they are less likely to learn when playing poorly can still lead to success and playing good can lead to failure. 

 

Don't forget Wedgie's biggest misdeeds, "Battle On" button, operation rework, artificial boosting of the income of certain classes.

And there are many more.

Edited April 26 by Andrewbassg

[Wolfswetpaws]

6 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

On 4/24/2024 at 9:37 AM, Kruzenstern said:

The only way I see to somewhat fix players being bad because they can is denying them rewards for failure. Starting at some tier (like, 5), if someone does terrible. he should not get 500 base XP, not 200, not even 1. He should get zero. Same for credits. That is the only thing I can think of that might motivate unwilling people to learn, because unless they get better they will never progress.

No. That would punish everybody, regardless how he plays. And will drove away equally bad and good players. In fact people who play a shooty pew pew game will simply not care. That would be collective punishment and that's impossible to implement in a, randomly constituted "team" game

BUT if under a certain threshold rewards would be nullified AND under an even  lower threshold people would be "attentioned"........that's a different story.

However, that's NOT gonna happen, because that's contrary to Wedgie's interests AND goals.

As I see it, the current WOWs rewards process will provide rewards to players according to what the players accomplish.
Accomplish a lot and get a lot of rewards.
Accomplish little and one can expect to receive little in the way of rewards.

Personally, I don't have a problem with that.

Player's motivations and commitment to the game vary, just as each player is a unique person with their own personal life schedule, preferences and criteria for having fun.

I agree that punishing many for the mistakes of the few, or the one, is a phenomena that I've experienced in the past during my military service.  I understood the purpose of it, in those circumstances, but never liked it.
So, on general principle, I'm not in favor of creating processes that "punish" everyone for the mistakes or performances of other players.
As @Andrewbassg points out, and I agree with, such a system is counter-productive to WG/WOWs goals of attracting and retaining players.

[Andrewbassg]

On 4/24/2024 at 5:28 PM, Jakob Knight said:

As others have brought up, the issue is caring about being good.

 

The difference between a professional and an amateur (as opposed to an initiate) is that the professional applies themself to learn to become the best at their craft because they care about the task they do, while the amateur is satisfied with minimal effort and attention to the work.  It's an internal decision that a person makes based on their level of interest in the quality of their performance, and if it isn't there, it can't be installed.

 

Philosophers have been trying for thousands of years to get people to care about things and we still haven't found an answer.  You can be climbing up that hill with grim determination and shout to people on sleds going the other way that they are heading to Perdition and they will simply shrug and yell back "but look how fast we're going!" .

 

The tools are there, and many of us became skilled at this game with less.  But you have to -want- to get better at it, or all those tools will sit on the table while the student surfs TicTok.

 

 

No. While this is indeed a "real" problem, there are quite a few methods to 'help" people "learn", whilst not applying fiat.

And no the tools were removed as were incentives too.

[clammboy]

1 hour ago, Andrewbassg said:

Nnope. That's a misconstruction. Not providing enough incentives  and in fact removing incentives AND learning tools is the problem. And it is entirely Wedgie's making and, in fact, a quite obvious and no so secret goal of them.

WHEN will victimblaming be enough ?

I don't know if incentives would help a player want to be better in this day and age. Seems like a lot of incentives are based on how much you play not how well you play. But to be honest you have to want to get better you really can't be bribed with incentives. People just open up things never look at the instructions or guides on how to play and just jump right in. 

People don't mind just learning on the fly to the chagrin of the people who have learned the game it's frustrating but not all WG fault. People want to have the best ships and play tier 10 right away and there is no easy cure for that.  

Edited April 26 by clammboy

[Jakob Knight]

39 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

No. While this is indeed a "real" problem, there are quite a few methods to 'help" people "learn", whilst not applying fiat.

And no the tools were removed as were incentives too.

 

The tools that were in place when I learned are still in place, so I don't see any removal here that would stop a person from learning to be a good player.  They either will learn or won't, entirely depending on their desire to learn.

 

And if getting better and being the best player you can in the game is not incentive enough for a player, they are never going to be good at this game anyway.