How can this be helped / remedied - let's openly discuss the biggest problem in WoWs - the absolute player base rock bottom degradation / decay

[Wolfswetpaws]

45 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Well SOMEONE was evidently on the Stomper team, because few if any of those turn up to whine about how successful they are all the time.

😄 

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

Ok - I really should be in bed, so I'll make this brief. (Yes, I can hear the cheers from here!)
 
1. Training is expensive. And it needs to be kept up to date, or it's actually counter-productive.
 
2. Stomps are a part of WG's business plan. New players who are on the receiving end of a caning from someone in a premium are more likely to go and buy that premium in the hope that they get to do the caning for a change.
 
3. New players are unlikely to work through a long series of training scenarios unless the rewards are significant. Significant rewards would eat into WGs bottom line.
 
4. People are already doing the job for very little cost to WG. Youtubers make tutorial videos. People on forums do extensive analyses on the game. I don't know what kind of compensation @LittleWhiteMouse got while she was a CC, but I can say for certain that if WG had paid market rates for that kind of work, they'd have been paying big bucks.

I submit that everything you need to learn how to play is available on youtube, in the wiki, forums like this, and on reddit (cesspit that it is). Then you need to practice, practice, practice. Players who don't avail themselves of those resources are unlikely to learn even if spoon fed.

There's a dichotomy between players who are likely to 'get good' through learning and practicing, and players who think they can spend money to improve their chances at having a good game. And clearly the latter are the more profitable for WG.

Bedtime! Night all.

"Right you are, Ken."  @SunkCostFallacy

46 minutes ago, HogHammer said:

If you have ever attempted to do a comprehensive ship review, you can appreciate the efforts LWM and others have put into it.  It is not something one can just whip out in a matter of hours.  I look at the volume of reviews that LWM has provided over the years, and I cannot fathom the many days, months, and dedication she has invested in this game.  It is beyond remarkable...

Aye.

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

4 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

If you're saying the %45 and below players' are bad, that's your opinion. To me, these people are the workhorses. They're the ones who fill the fleet spots to give you a match to play.

All you have proved with the pic shown, is the overall server composition in WOWS as a whole. (Which is the following.. Using statistical tools percentiles and bell curve on population distribution).

• %56 and above %5 percentile
  • The least active block
• $45-%55 %90 percentile
  • The highest active block by far
• %44 and below  the other %5 percentile.
  • the second highest active player block.

---------------------------------

Since this is a brawl match and not a Random match... Its unacceptable/unreasonable/unconscionable/indefensible to compare the two stats and come up with your conclusion.

I would also add. If you want a fair fight, brawls was never the game mode in the first place. Any notion, brawls were fair.. Are the distorted thinking of the user.

If you want some humble advice.. (take it or leave it its for your mental well being)...

• Stop using MMM
• Stop comparing stats from two different game modes and then say they're somehow related.. They're not.
  • Brawl MM is not Random MM and vice versa.
• WR is not an indicator of player quality.. Especially in brawls.

I'll state this over again... There's no skill in WOWS, there's nothing to be fixed according to WG. There's no universally accepted methodology/stats, that can make fair matches AND over powered ships.

This is not a player base problem.. Its a power creep, issue... If i had to blame the player base for anything.. It would be our insatiable appetite for BIG BOOM/EXPLOSIONS. Leading to shorter and shorter matches which correlates to lower stats.

The "Brawl" is temporary game mode and we only have the "Ranked" metric for general battles.

But I see no problem of applying "Random" metric to "Brawl" - those are same players - they don't magically become "good" or "bad" when they switch game modes!

 

Also in my 2 illustrative images it is 100% clearly visible that players are good or bad in both "Account" (i.e. overall) and in "Ship" chosen - also no surprises here.

 

So... there is no question whether the WoWs player base is good or bad (we already know the answer) - but how can we all improve (individually and collectively)...

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Ensign Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

2. Stomps are a part of WG's business plan. New players who are on the receiving end of a caning from someone in a premium are more likely to go and buy that premium in the hope that they get to do the caning for a change.

That depends on who the new player is. Weeks if not months of watching Jingles and others before I even downloaded the game told me exactly the opposite. 

[Silence_CN]

46 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Remove subs and planes, and people will complain about the DDs. Been there, done that...therefore I refuse to buy the absurd idea that the 'solution' is to remove CVs and subs.

 

I must agree.

Being more of a DD main, remove CV's and subs and I can ensure you that people WILL complain about DD's... since it's in human nature to reject the guilt on anything "other". I have already experienced it => I have already been called "cancer" with my Kitakaze in a game with no CVs (and long before subs were introduced).

And you know what ?
I absolutely don't give [whatever] about that => others' wrath glide on me like water on duck's feathers.
And I don't even give a sh*t because I also know that I CAN'T DO ANYTHING against this.

So, my motto in this game (as in life) remains then same : "die or adapt".

Or leave the game if you're getting bored. 😁

Edited April 24 by Silence_CN

[Kynami]

5 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

That depends on who the new player is. Weeks if not months of watching Jingles and others before I even downloaded the game told me exactly the opposite. 

Yep, anyone that actually has common sense would pretty quickly understand that simply having a ship isn't the same thing as being good with it. And indeed, over in some permanent destruction based games like EVE Online you very often see that a fool and his money are soon parted. And while some indeed do learn from an expensive lesson... there are others that seem completely incapable of connecting the dots.

In any competitive game you inevitably get that crowd that believes they are being held back by their fellow players or lack of having that surefire winning "thing". Instead of looking in the mirror and admitting they too are partially at fault. Account leveling "services", ranked "boosting", buy your way to the "end game". There are tons of ways that particular mentality gets targeted. An opportunity for those that can take advantage of them, but absolutely a disaster in motion for anyone that has to deal with the resulting rage of a fool that feels they have been cheated yet again.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

1 minute ago, Kynami said:

And indeed, over in some permanent destruction based games like EVE Online

When I was a newb I was initially concerned that WOWS would be like that, and was very relieved to learn that it was not.

[Jakob Knight]

52 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

 

Mouse's reviews were brilliantly done, but one gets the impression that she drove herself well past the point of diminishing returns to make them. Quitting as a CC meant that she no longer had timely access to the ships, which is as big a bullet as I've ever seen anyone in this game deliver to their own foot.

 

Mouse drove herself far past any idea of compensation as a CC.  From what I can tell, she pushed to the point her health was in jeopardy and did it from enjoyment in understanding the game and giving others a firm understanding.  Her leaving the CC program was probably unavoidable after how WG treated her in the Yukongate incident, so I don't see how it could have been otherwise.

 

These are my own opinions, and I'm certain LWM can correct all of us if she decides we're off base and it is warranted.  

 

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, Navalpride33 said:

1 hour ago, mashed68 said:

Its funny that a lot of people bitching about blow outs are cv and sub players that are causing the real players to stop playing. Its like people who move next to a race track then complain about the noise. 

I found it amusing. CVs been around since beta, they're part of the success of the game. Yet, get blamed for everything.

Don't get me wrong, I've called CVs Corona Virus because they dump on everyone. I prefer RTS CVs myself because I wan skills back in WOWS.

Sometimes, i think CVs get heat from the wrong place.

I think that the players who quit while complaining about CV's and Submarines are not the "real players".
They are, instead, the "real quitters".

Some tout the "mano a mano" nature of their approach to the game and that it can only be properly expressed by "surface ships" (or whatever variation thereof that they're claiming).
They claim that some ships don't put their hulls at risk or something to that effect.

Oh really?
Well.  If they're such bad-aft "real players" then they should be more than capable of storming the proverbial castle and sailing right up next to the "insert-name-of-the-boogie-man-ship-here" and blap it right on the nose!

But, no.  Instead they visit forums and reddit and wherever else and cry like toddlers, in my opinion.

Because what they should be doing, these "real players" is saying "Challenge Accepted!" and kicking some aft!

[Real Player!]  "But, but but.. {Sobbing noises}  That <insert ship name here> was mean to me!"
[Helicopter Parent & Nanny State Advocate]  "Awww.  There, there.  It's gonna be okay.  Show us on the doll where the mean ole ship touched you and I'll pay my lawyer to sue the pants off of them to make your ouchies all better."
[Real Player!]  "I want my participation trophy, too.  {More sobbing}"
[Helicopter Parent & Nanny State Advocate]  "We'll order you one, don't worry."

Silly me.  
I was born in the late 1960's and grew-up in the 1970's and 1980's when "being a wimp" was actually looked down upon.

In my opinion there's nothing brave or macho about claiming that CV's and Submarines should not be in the game.
The game, World of Warships includes the World War Two era. 
And CV's and Submarines were a part of that.
Who the <bleep> are the "real players" to say that those ships and their crews don't deserve representation in this game?!?!

Now, if you want to discuss game mechanics and which ones are more or less realistic and have diverse opinions about what seems to work and what could use improvement?
Yep, I'm enthusastically willing to have such conversations in good faith.
Got a solution?  Well speak the "sales pitch" of the solution so we can all analyze it together.  🙂 

But advocating for the exclusion of ships is going to be treated the same way I treat discrimination and de-humanization behavior.  Just for your everyone's information.  🙂 
 

Edited April 24 by Wolfswetpaws

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

21 minutes ago, Silence_CN said:

 

I must agree.

Being more of a DD main, remove CV's and subs and I can ensure you that people WILL complain about DD's... since it's in human nature to reject the guilt on anything "other". I have already experienced it => I have already been called "cancer" with my Kitakaze in a game with no CVs (and long before subs were introduced).

And you know what ?
I absolutely don't give [whatever] about that => others' wrath glide on me like water on duck's feathers.
And I don't even give a sh*t because I also know that I CAN'T DO ANYTHING against this.

So, my motto in this game (as in life) remains then same : "die or adapt".

Or leave the game if you're getting bored. 😁

I main CVs (and BBs, but that's because I use the BB as a change of pace)...and I absolutely agree with the DGAF response to the whining about CVs.

Are they broken? Yup.

Have I spent literal years trying to get WG to fix their issues? Yup.

Do I care if some random person on the Internet wants to rage at me for daring to play the class? Absolutely not.

The game is not, has never been, and will never be balanced...so long as the current group of absolutely incompetent WG leadership remains.

Raging at me won't change a thing.

[Wolfswetpaws]

25 minutes ago, Silence_CN said:

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Remove subs and planes, and people will complain about the DDs. Been there, done that...therefore I refuse to buy the absurd idea that the 'solution' is to remove CVs and subs.

 

I must agree.

Being more of a DD main, remove CV's and subs and I can ensure you that people WILL complain about DD's... since it's in human nature to reject the guilt on anything "other". I have already experienced it => I have already been called "cancer" with my Kitakaze in a game with no CVs (and long before subs were introduced).

And you know what ?
I absolutely don't give [whatever] about that => others' wrath glide on me like water on duck's feathers.
And I don't even give a sh*t because I also know that I CAN'T DO ANYTHING against this.

So, my motto in this game (as in life) remains then same : "die or adapt".

Or leave the game if you're getting bored. 😁

 😄 👍

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

3 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Some tout the "mano a mano" nature of their approach to the game and that it can only be properly expressed by "surface ships" (or whatever variation thereof that they're claiming).
They claim that some ships don't put their hulls at risk or something to that effect.

Just to add fuel to your fire...many of the same people refuse to play lower tiers, where the historical gameplay doesn't feature planes or subs...

...because they want to play Yamato in a game without planes or subs.

I'm sure Admirals Ito and Toyoda really wished that planes and subs were not a thing facing Yamato on her way to complete Operation Ten Go...but they were.

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 minute ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Just to add fuel to your fire...many of the same people refuse to play lower tiers, where the historical gameplay doesn't feature planes or subs...

...because they want to play Yamato in a game without planes or subs.

I'm sure Admirals Ito and Toyoda really wished that planes and subs were not a thing facing Yamato on her way to complete Operation Ten Go...but they were.

Well said.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

2 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

Her leaving the CC program was probably unavoidable after how WG treated her in the Yukongate incident

I'm still perplexed that she and Chobittsu together apparently allowed the Yukon thing to go on as long as it did without trying to clarify with someone - anyone -what the hell was(n't) going on. Ultimately AFAIK what she finally quit over was a fight she subsequently picked with the developers over something related to to the Yukon but not intrinsically tied to the development of the ship. It might have been the Sackville-pattern camo. 

[Jakob Knight]

6 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

I'm still perplexed that she and Chobittsu together apparently allowed the Yukon thing to go on as long as it did without trying to clarify with someone - anyone -what the hell was(n't) going on. Ultimately AFAIK what she finally quit over was a fight she subsequently picked with the developers over something related to to the Yukon but not intrinsically tied to the development of the ship. It might have been the Sackville-pattern camo. 

 

When you don't think anything is going wrong, it's easy to not do comprehensive checks.  None of us (I believe) do a full check on our cars before driving them but will look over everything once we notice something is off.  From what I understand of the situation, the project was being handled in-house and WG only gave them the replies one would expect of a project in progress (meaning next to nothing as they were essentially external assistants that would not be included in the internal workings of the company)until the reveal of Yukon proved their work had largely been discarded due to inter-department miscommunication and company politics.

 

Regardless, the situation was one that left staying a CC probably impossible to anyone. That so many others left as a result of the incident shows it was not a small mistake on the part of WG to handle it in the manner they did.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

14 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

Regardless, the situation was one that left staying a CC probably impossible to anyone.

The number of CCs who stayed gives the lie to that comment.

The other thing which came out of this is how badly some of the CCs who decided to stay got treated. T. C. Freer was bullied to the point of tears on his own stream. That goes beyond supporting a hard-done-by CC and crosses over into mob rule/cult behaviour. There were no excuses for that. None. 

Edited April 24 by Ensign Cthulhu

[ArIskandir]

10 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

What can be done?

You can't force change other people behavior but you are 100% able to change yourself. 

Change your own behavior so you stop being worried, bothered and annoyed by other player's performances. 

That you can do. 

Since performance in this game has no direct and real consequence over real life, I think the approach I'm suggesting is sound. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

8 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

You can't force change other people behavior but you are 100% able to change yourself. 

Change your own behavior so you stop being worried, bothered and annoyed by other player's performances. 

That you can do. 

Since performance in this game has no direct and real consequence over real life, I think the approach I'm suggesting is sound. 

👍

[Asym]

9 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

The number of CCs who stayed gives the lie to that comment.

The other thing which came out of this is how badly some of the CCs who decided to stay got treated. T. C. Freer was bullied to the point of tears on his own stream. That goes beyond supporting a hard-done-by CC and crosses over into mob rule/cult behaviour. There were no excuses for that. None. 

Consider that "power" corrupts absolutely....  There are some "pretty heady" CM's and staff.    Which, is really funny considering they look down on people they'd poop-a-brick if they knew who they are IRL....

[Jakob Knight]

28 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

The number of CCs who stayed gives the lie to that comment.

The other thing which came out of this is how badly some of the CCs who decided to stay got treated. T. C. Freer was bullied to the point of tears on his own stream. That goes beyond supporting a hard-done-by CC and crosses over into mob rule/cult behaviour. There were no excuses for that. None. 

 

I should have clarified that it made staying a CC impossible for LWM as one of the two people directly impacted by WG's handling of the matter.  Other CCs may have been able to justify staying in the grounds they were not directly involved, but being the focus of the matter puts one in a different situation.

 

I don't want to sidetrack the thread more on that matter, but the eastern European corporate culture at WG really did not serve them well before or after.  Appearing weak is secondary only to failure as unforgivable sins to such cultures, and WG's attempts to prove they were the strong partner in any dealings just cemented how clueless they were to the situation or how it should have been handled.   

 

With the split with Lesta, maybe some of that can bleed off now, but I think it will take years, if ever.  It's almost impossible to change a corporate culture in existence since the beginning of the company, and I haven't seen any indication the people at WG have charted a new course.  Just the opposite, given that we are posting here instead of the old Forums.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 24 by Jakob Knight

[WES_HoundDog]

It's the decay of the game and no one to blame but Wargamming.

Expecting Wargamming to fix the problem is about as stupid as the decisions made to create the problem.

Edited April 24 by WES_HoundDog

[Jakob Knight]

1 minute ago, WES_HoundDog said:

It's the decay of the game and no one to blame but Wargamming.

Expecting Wargamming to fix the problem is about as stupid as the decisions made to create the problem.

 

Wargaming didn't make me the player I am today.  Wargaming didn't teach me how to play the game or how to defeat the opposition I faced.   Wargaming didn't create the problems that came from my bad decisions in a match.

 

So I agree with you that looking to Wargaming to fix the problem is not going to produce a solution.  That isn't where the problem exists, so neither is that where a correction to the issue will be found.

 

 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

2 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

When you don't think anything is going wrong, it's easy to not do comprehensive checks.  None of us (I believe) do a full check on our cars before driving them but will look over everything once we notice something is off.  From what I understand of the situation, the project was being handled in-house and WG only gave them the replies one would expect of a project in progress (meaning next to nothing as they were essentially external assistants that would not be included in the internal workings of the company)until the reveal of Yukon proved their work had largely been discarded due to inter-department miscommunication and company politics.

 

Regardless, the situation was one that left staying a CC probably impossible to anyone. That so many others left as a result of the incident shows it was not a small mistake on the part of WG to handle it in the manner they did.

FYI, EC is not a reliable source when it comes to discussing LWM or anything surrounding her.

For some reason there is negative history there. I've not found EC to be able to be neutral or unbiased with respect to those folks.

Beware.

[clammboy]

11 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

the difference between a professional and an amateur (as opposed to an initiate) is that the professional applies themself to learn to become the best at their craft because they care about the task they do, while the amateur is satisfied with minimal effort and attention to the work.  It's an internal decision that a person makes based on their level of interest in the quality of their performance, and if it isn't there, it can't be installed

I'm sorry but I have to disagree a bit here. There are plenty of amateurs who have tried there best to learn there crafts and cared as much as anyone but did not have the physical or mental tools to succeed at the professional level.

While there are plenty of professionals who were blessed with physical and mental skill who just skated to success with out much effort. Not all mind you I agree some do it by sheer determination but it's just not as cut and dry as you put it IMHO.  

Edited April 25 by clammboy

[Jakob Knight]

12 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

FYI, EC is not a reliable source when it comes to discussing LWM or anything surrounding her.

For some reason there is negative history there. I've not found EC to be able to be neutral or unbiased with respect to those folks.

Beware.

 

I listen to anyone who posts here.  We all carry our biases with us, including myself.  That doesn't mean we're wrong or right in what we say, only that everyone should check what we say to make their own opinion on what we say.  My own opinion on the matter is drawn from my own experience of the incident and what I have read since that time, not just one person's thoughts on the matter, and I was careful to note that I am open to correction on the facts of I got them wrong because I was not directly involved (aside from a voluntary embargo on WG I maintained until certain criteria were met).  

 

This forum is here for all of us to speak and be heard.  As long as we do so in a civil manner, I believe all should be heard.  We don't have to agree with what is said, and we are free to just as civilly point out why we do or don't.  That's civilization.   I prefer it over the alternatives.