How can this be helped / remedied - let's openly discuss the biggest problem in WoWs - the absolute player base rock bottom degradation / decay

[Jakob Knight]

As others have brought up, the issue is caring about being good.

 

The difference between a professional and an amateur (as opposed to an initiate) is that the professional applies themself to learn to become the best at their craft because they care about the task they do, while the amateur is satisfied with minimal effort and attention to the work.  It's an internal decision that a person makes based on their level of interest in the quality of their performance, and if it isn't there, it can't be installed.

 

Philosophers have been trying for thousands of years to get people to care about things and we still haven't found an answer.  You can be climbing up that hill with grim determination and shout to people on sleds going the other way that they are heading to Perdition and they will simply shrug and yell back "but look how fast we're going!" .

 

The tools are there, and many of us became skilled at this game with less.  But you have to -want- to get better at it, or all those tools will sit on the table while the student surfs TicTok.

 

 

Edited April 24 by Jakob Knight

[Asym]

4 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

...

YOU CANNOT FORCE THE PLAYERBASE TO BE TRAINED TO A STANDARD THAT MEETS YOUR DESIRES.

Oh my, the Irony of your statement....  Our host has mate......  and,  (see below)

3 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

Yep - sad truth (another example):

Leo "Apollo11"

IS   -  WYSIWYG  -  live and in reality !!!   You reap what you sow mate and that ^^^^^ is what our host created, intentionally to make money.

And, we talk about skill in a game not designed for the use of Skill.........OH, Irony !!!

[Aethervox]

9 minutes ago, Asym said:

is what our host created, intentionally to make money.

Do leopards change their spots? I didn't think so. 

[Justin_Simpleton]

8 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

The difference between a professional and an amateur (as opposed to an initiate) is that the professional applies themself to learn to become the best at their craft because they care about the task they do, while that amateur is satisfied with minimal effort and attention to the work.  It's an internal decision that a person makes based on their level of interest in the quality of their performance, and if it isn't there, it can't be installed.

The amateur you speak of consists of people who play this game for reasons other than competing to be the best.  Some use it as a stress relief/escape from real life.  It takes more than effort to become a professional grade player; it takes time.  Everything about this game can be found online and ONLY online.  Think about how much time it takes to find training sources, watch the videos, watch your own replays, and also learn to use Discord, operate this forum, diagnose computer problems, etc.  A person has to start asking themselves why try to become professional?  Of course, if you learn the ins and outs of X, YouTube, Reddit, Rumble, Patreon, etc. you can earn an income.

So, who has the time to learn everything about this game? I'm guessing the professionals and retired people are the ones who will go through the necessary learning curve.  The people that WG seems to be targeting are those who will spend money to become the badest-ass player around.  Feeding someone's ego is good way to make money.

[Asym]

2 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

That doesn't explain why some beginner players develop into unicums while others become red-stat millstones. If lack of introductory courses is the problem, then we all start with the same handicap. But some overcome it while others don't.

I repeat: you cannot force people to become competent.

What are you going to do? What could you do that would actually make a difference? Because I can tell you right now, all the beginner tutorials in the world won't work if a player doesn't give a [rhymes with luck].

In the meantime: uninstall MMM and you will be a lot less stressed.

Oh Gosh, you haven't read anything I've written these past 7 years !  THINK, was a sign on every employees desk in the 60's.... Why?  Because, they had the same problem:  people, and that includes very smart people, simply "want a job" and could care less about Innovation or a better product !!!   The only videogame I know of that does just the opposite is League of Legends  -  whom compels "excellence and communications" all the way through the entire corporation !!!  BE, KNOW and DO.....kind of stuff.  BTW, there is a Harvard Business School Article about LoL that is required reading in many University Innovation degree programs !!! 

Remember, I've been talking about a game life cycle project I've been working on.........well, ^^^^^ there you go.   It's called the Exodus period of mature games....  That's a lot of Red mate AND, the thousands whom have flocked into PVE makes it even worse...

This game simply is a stalled, mature game in a deep, small niche, Red Ocean.....    Have you ever considered that <<<<<< that is their actual goal?  To just break even???

I suspect they are trying to align to the young adult with Mommy's plastic, magic card.....   BUT, there in, lies an entire generation of "young adults" that have a 6 minute attention span and the generation before them, knows absolutely nothing about WW1 or 2, let alone "ships that sail on water..." 

IMO, I can't see that our host can do anything in this Red Ocean paradigm:  because, it would take very large amount of capital to re-build the game itself for a market that simply "doesn't want it..."   Remember, I tried to recruit players at a Universities eSport club meeting several years ago........over 300 players there.......zero interest.  They see NACE as a "profession" and aren't even remotely interested in "historic stuff" - let alone anything real world....  Sorry.  Long winded but..........

This is the way.

[Asym]

1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Imagine you paying WG/WOWs for the programming labor to implement these changes?  

If WOWs sees that it is in their best interest and that it will increase their playerbase and revenue streams, then they'll do whatever they can to make the revenue improve.
Otherwise....?
 

Assuming that is there goal.......  Remember, our host has several games going on a the same time....  Maybe, WOWS isn't in the top three and their budget is simply to "keep the game population" if possible. 

Their mantra, if I were being funny (which, I am terrible at) would be:  "Revenue First, Stable Always"....

[Asym]

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

There is no skill metric, true.

There is no level playing field, true.

WG intentionally skews the game to minimize the impact of skill, true.

WG intentionally seeks to find players who want to pull the slot machine lever and get rewarded with citadels and DevStrikes...and actively pushes away players who want to understand and teach how to win the game, very much true.

--------------------

You can improve your skill in the game to get better results (which results you want will drive what skills to improve), true.

The effect of improving will not be easily visible to other players, true...remember, no skill metric.

The idea that succeeding at the game requires no skill is an absurd position not supported by the facts. The difficulty is that there is no measure of success published by WG.

So we can't actually measure the skill of others or even ourselves well...particularly since success is in the eye of the beholder, and is not universal.

Gee>?  I thought I said most of that ^^^^ earlier this week>>>???

Yep, we aren't a meritocracy at all......just a cooperative, arcade, young adult shooter.........  With adults whom want to "be something" in a game, playing against eight year olds whom simply love to PO the world and have a two minute attention span........and, this game allows it cause their Grandma's and Ma's allow them access to eMoney and that keeps them, hyperactive kids busy.....  At whose expense?

WYSIWYG.  

[Kruzenstern]

11 minutes ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

So, who has the time to learn everything about this game? I'm guessing the professionals and retired people are the ones who will go through the necessary learning curve.  The people that WG seems to be targeting are those who will spend money to become the badest-ass player around.  Feeding someone's ego is good way to make money.

The problem with the terrible players these days isn't that they don't know everything about the game. It is that they don't know ANYTHING. They only have to do some very basic things to be at least not detrimental to the team:

Know how to lead a target

Know what their ship is good at and what it is not good at

Know how to angle to minimize damage

Know to avoid being spotted as DD or when low on HP

Stuff that is imho basic common sense, or at the very least should become clear after just a handful of battles.

Yet I constantly see people:

Missing their shots so wide that it appears like they shoot the enemy directly rather than leading

Hanging all the way back in german BBs/BCs and/or brawling with (light) cruisers that don't have torps

Sail broadside to closeby enemies for extended periods (well, not THAT extended usually...)

The likes of Shimakaze or Akazuki merrily using their guns for no effect except being spotted, and low health BBs/cruisers keeping on shooting where stopping would certainly save them

 

It is just the state of humanity these days. Common sense is anything but common, and there is still no cure for stupid. This game is no different than the real world.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

Just now, Asym said:

Gee>?  I thought I said most of that ^^^^ earlier this week>>>???

Yep, we aren't a meritocracy at all......just a cooperative, arcade, young adult shooter.........  With adults whom want to "be something" in a game, playing against eight year olds whom simply love to PO the world and have a two minute attention span........and, this game allows it cause their Grandma's and Ma's allow them access to eMoney and that keeps them, hyperactive kids busy.....  At whose expense?

WYSIWYG.  

Yes, you probably did.

I'm just reinforcing it since Naval hasn't seemed to understand that his method of communicating the truth isn't landing.

I mean, I'm a >40 year old 'kid' who plays the game to have fun...who makes silly meme builds (full secondary Midway, full fighter / more smoke / faster depth charge Yorktown, etc etc) so I can enjoy the game, competitive meta be damned.

I still have 54% win-rate despite knowingly playing subpar.

It's not just the kids that play to have fun...

[Wolfswetpaws]

Let's face it.  🙂 
World of Warships is not "Candy Crush".  😉 

https://worldofwarships.com/
https://www.king.com/game/candycrush
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candy_Crush_Saga

Edited April 24 by Wolfswetpaws

[SunkCostFallacy]

Ok - I really should be in bed, so I'll make this brief. (Yes, I can hear the cheers from here!)
 
1. Training is expensive. And it needs to be kept up to date, or it's actually counter-productive.
 
2. Stomps are a part of WG's business plan. New players who are on the receiving end of a caning from someone in a premium are more likely to go and buy that premium in the hope that they get to do the caning for a change.
 
3. New players are unlikely to work through a long series of training scenarios unless the rewards are significant. Significant rewards would eat into WGs bottom line.
 
4. People are already doing the job for very little cost to WG. Youtubers make tutorial videos. People on forums do extensive analyses on the game. I don't know what kind of compensation @LittleWhiteMouse got while she was a CC, but I can say for certain that if WG had paid market rates for that kind of work, they'd have been paying big bucks.

I submit that everything you need to learn how to play is available on youtube, in the wiki, forums like this, and on reddit (cesspit that it is). Then you need to practice, practice, practice. Players who don't avail themselves of those resources are unlikely to learn even if spoon fed.

There's a dichotomy between players who are likely to 'get good' through learning and practicing, and players who think they can spend money to improve their chances at having a good game. And clearly the latter are the more profitable for WG.

Bedtime! Night all.

[Jakob Knight]

1 hour ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

The amateur you speak of consists of people who play this game for reasons other than competing to be the best.  Some use it as a stress relief/escape from real life.  It takes more than effort to become a professional grade player; it takes time.  Everything about this game can be found online and ONLY online.  Think about how much time it takes to find training sources, watch the videos, watch your own replays, and also learn to use Discord, operate this forum, diagnose computer problems, etc.  A person has to start asking themselves why try to become professional?  Of course, if you learn the ins and outs of X, YouTube, Reddit, Rumble, Patreon, etc. you can earn an income.

So, who has the time to learn everything about this game? I'm guessing the professionals and retired people are the ones who will go through the necessary learning curve.  The people that WG seems to be targeting are those who will spend money to become the badest-ass player around.  Feeding someone's ego is good way to make money.

 

I make a differentiation between Amateur and Initiate precisely because of the time issue.  An Initiate hasn't got the experience to be good yet, but they are committed to improving and will improve as they gain experience.  The Amateur won't because their guiding principle is 'good enough is good enough'.  As long as they can log in and hit the fire button, that's all they care about (and possibly taking to chat to blame everyone else when the game doesn't go their way).

 

Who has time to learn this game?  Anyone.  I learned it while holding down two jobs, helping my family, keeping up friendships, and being involved in two online Guilds.  How did I learn how to be a force on the battlefield?  I applied myself to learning what I did that worked in the game and how to avoid mistakes when possible.  It really is as simple as that.  No YouTube.  No Forum posts.  Just experience and a drive to improve.

 

If someone can't do that, then it is a simple fact they will be bad at this game, and will always be bad at this game.  

 

 

Edited April 24 by Jakob Knight

[Wolfswetpaws]

🙂👍

[Navalpride33]

I would also add..

HOW TO videos from everyone and their grandpa on how to play WOWS OR a particular class..

This is a different problem. To many of those influencer types who think they know how to play, putting out videos to "help."

In reality, its propaganda. WOWS have change a lot in the last year. So much so, must How To videos are obsolete.

Very few people make how to video to stand the test of time and meta changes.  THOSE are the real tutors IMO.

Why do I bring this up?? I've lost battles because of these brainwashing content. I've been a victim of a fast BB not protecting the cap and instead, using his speed to do nothing productive... Again, because someone told him to do so.  If he would've learned on his own, I think, his decision process would be improved NOT influenced.

 

[mashed68]

Its amazing how much better people play and have fun when you play a game mode that removes cv's and subs. WG will never do that on the regular, so you get stuck with the current game play style.

Its funny that a lot of people bitching about blow outs are cv and sub players that are causing the real players to stop playing. Its like people who move next to a race track then complain about the noise. 

[Asym]

45 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Let's face it.  🙂 
World of Warships is not "Candy Crush".  😉 

https://worldofwarships.com/
https://www.king.com/game/candycrush
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candy_Crush_Saga

Really....?  Last I played an Random match I could have sworn we had to "draw a card" or "spin a dial" to NOT BE on the Stompee team(s)....

Oh !!!, you meant the current Candy Crush !   These guys:

"With Sweden’s technological developments, it is no surprise that NetEnt is one of leading providers in the iGaming industry. The Swedish company won an award in 2019 for being the slot supplier of the year, and so it is no surprise that NetEnt has become a household name for online gambling. Clearly, Sweden is not only great at developing games, but they are also great at providing content for what they call spelautomater (slot machines)."  (Candy Crush Wiki, 2024.)

I'm just following your links "Oh Great One !"

Chutes and Ladders might have been a better choice....  Stratego and Risk, were childhood favorites....

 

[Navalpride33]

7 minutes ago, mashed68 said:

Its funny that a lot of people bitching about blow outs are cv and sub players that are causing the real players to stop playing. Its like people who move next to a race track then complain about the noise. 

I found it amusing. CVs been around since beta, they're part of the success of the game. Yet, get blamed for everything.

Don't get me wrong, I've called CVs Corona Virus because they dump on everyone. I prefer RTS CVs myself because I wan skills back in WOWS.

Sometimes, i think CVs get heat from the wrong place.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

13 minutes ago, Asym said:

Really....?  Last I played an Random match I could have sworn we had to "draw a card" or "spin a dial" to NOT BE on the Stompee team(s)....

Well SOMEONE was evidently on the Stomper team, because few if any of those turn up to whine about how successful they are all the time.

[HogHammer]

42 minutes ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

4. People are already doing the job for very little cost to WG. Youtubers make tutorial videos. People on forums do extensive analyses on the game. I don't know what kind of compensation @LittleWhiteMouse got while she was a CC, but I can say for certain that if WG had paid market rates for that kind of work, they'd have been paying big bucks.

If you have ever attempted to do a comprehensive ship review, you can appreciate the efforts LWM and others have put into it.  It is not something one can just whip out in a matter of hours.  I look at the volume of reviews that LWM has provided over the years, and I cannot fathom the many days, months, and dedication she has invested in this game.  It is beyond remarkable...

[Jakob Knight]

33 minutes ago, mashed68 said:

Its amazing how much better people play and have fun when you play a game mode that removes cv's and subs. WG will never do that on the regular, so you get stuck with the current game play style.

Its funny that a lot of people bitching about blow outs are cv and sub players that are causing the real players to stop playing. Its like people who move next to a race track then complain about the noise. 

 

It's funny how many players are Amateurs and want matches where they don't have to worry about more than looking through a gun sight to play the game with.  Or the players who jump into CVs and Subs thinking they will get easy mode and find out those units both need their teammates and are far from the easy win units they expect.

 

It's also funny how the real players take responsibility for their own gameplay and learn how to play the game with the increased complexities and challenges of the standard game rather than try to blame CVs and Subs for any problems they face and seek modes of the game where they don't have to face those units rather than learn how to play with them.  Truely amazing.

Edited April 24 by Jakob Knight

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

32 minutes ago, mashed68 said:

Its amazing how much better people play and have fun when you play a game mode that removes cv's and subs. WG will never do that on the regular, so you get stuck with the current game play style.

Its funny that a lot of people bitching about blow outs are cv and sub players that are causing the real players to stop playing. Its like people who move next to a race track then complain about the noise. 

Fascinating.

Almost every word of this is wrong.

Remove subs and planes, and people will complain about the DDs. Been there, done that...therefore I refuse to buy the absurd idea that the 'solution' is to remove CVs and subs.

We've already done that, and it didn't work.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

58 minutes ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

I don't know what kind of compensation @LittleWhiteMouse got while she was a CC

IIRC it's 10K dubs a month plus all the doubloon ships for free, and I think some camos as well (back when these still had eco boosters attached). Depending on the era, they also got/get given codes, crates and occasionally premium ships etc. to give out to viewers. 

Lord Zath leveraged the hell out of his CC perks and being good enough to win free stuff over the years, to the point where he has such an obscene amount of everything that it even blows WG's mind. He has said multiple times that his total financial outlay in the game is twenty US dollars. What Zath brings to the game is coaching of anyone who will ask. I've seen people who didn't know how to drive their ships properly at the start go rocketing up in winrate to the point where it leaves me breathless. 

Mouse's reviews were brilliantly done, but one gets the impression that she drove herself well past the point of diminishing returns to make them. Quitting as a CC meant that she no longer had timely access to the ships, which is as big a bullet as I've ever seen anyone in this game deliver to their own foot.

[Type_93]

13 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

It's funny how many players are Amateurs and want matches where they don't have to worry about more than looking through a gun sight to play the game with.  Or the players who jump into CVs and Subs thinking they will get easy mode and find out those units both need their teammates and are far from the easy win units they expect.

 

It's also funny how the real players take responsibility for their own gameplay and learn how to play the game with the increased complexities and challenges of the standard game rather than try to blame CVs and Subs for any problems they face and seek modes of the game where they don't have to face those units rather than learn how to play with them.  Truely amazing.

You sir win the internet’s for today. 

 

 

Edited April 24 by Type_93

[Wolfswetpaws]

47 minutes ago, Asym said:

Really....?  Last I played an Random match I could have sworn we had to "draw a card" or "spin a dial" to NOT BE on the Stompee team(s)....

Oh !!!, you meant the current Candy Crush !   These guys:

"With Sweden’s technological developments, it is no surprise that NetEnt is one of leading providers in the iGaming industry. The Swedish company won an award in 2019 for being the slot supplier of the year, and so it is no surprise that NetEnt has become a household name for online gambling. Clearly, Sweden is not only great at developing games, but they are also great at providing content for what they call spelautomater (slot machines)."  (Candy Crush Wiki, 2024.)

I'm just following your links "Oh Great One !"

Chutes and Ladders might have been a better choice....  Stratego and Risk, were childhood favorites....

 

This quote from the wiki article caught my attention.
 

Quote

The game uses a freemium model; while it can be played completely through without spending money, players can buy special actions to help clear more difficult boards, from which King makes its revenues—at its peak, the company was reportedly earning almost $1 million per day.^[2] Around 2014, over 93 million people were playing Candy Crush Saga, while revenue over a three-month period as reported by King was over $493 million.^[3]

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

57 minutes ago, mashed68 said:

"... when you play a game mode that removes cv's and subs.  ..."

https://www.devstrike.net/topic/3667-how-can-this-be-helped-remedied-lets-openly-discuss-the-biggest-problem-in-wows-the-absolute-player-base-rock-bottom-degradation-decay/?do=findComment&comment=49021

 

Such a game can be boring.  But, that's just my opinion.  😉