Latest DevBlog Changes to CVs and AA - Closed Test April 16th - UPDATE

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

26 minutes ago, EmGee42 said:

Wouldn't it be simpler to just give ships effective AA again?

No.

Ships never had effective air defense through their AA guns.

[SunkCostFallacy]

7 hours ago, _KlRlTO_ said:

Those of us who have been playing the game long enough remember someone being put in the same position Ahskance is now. Former queen of the skies Fem was a CV main WG employee with mad skills who had to be a face for the original CV rework, which killed her ability to play CVs at all due to personal issues with motion sickness and the graphics of modern attack runs. That said, I am getting a similar vibe from Ahskance on this, which is very concerning. Towing a company line is to be expected, but it also means that credibility for trust is impossible in the face of negative company history. It also means that any statement resembling "just trust me" is in fact a statement of the opposite, as having to state such a thing means that inherently, the statement is by default not trustworthy.

It could be.

Or it could be that someone looked at his response and pointed out, quite rightly, that much of the player base in fact do not trust WG or it's employees so saying that is absolutely counter-productive.

Equally,  WG have gone for the "stuff we know that we can't tell you" tactic far too many times to cover up to be remotely credible now.

One theory about the closure of the old forums is that WG needed to get rid of years of evidence which made them look duplicitous and amateur. Discord let's them make things just 'not have happened' much more readily.

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 hours ago, Darlith said:

Noticed a lot of "But Carriers will have manual secondaries," in this thread. Poor Independence, has no secondaries to go to manual. Curious how secondary batteries like Serov which is a bunch of 85mm guns with 14mm pen, or Rhein with 4 whole 88mm guns with 15mm pen, will fare when trying to pick off a hunting DD. 

The Saipan and the Sanzang also have no secondary-battery guns.

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, EmGee42 said:

Wouldn't it be simpler to just give ships effective AA again?

In-game AA is more effective than Pacific theater ship AA during WW-II.
Change my mind.  🙂 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

2 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

In-game AA is more effective than Pacific theater ship AA during WW-II.
Change my mind.  🙂 

Best defense against enemy planes was your own planes.

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 minute ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Best defense against enemy planes was your own planes.

Which is why I tend to choose the fighter-plane option when my ships have a choice of spotter plane or fighter plane.
That said, we're discussing AA.  So, I was focusing on that.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

11 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Which is why I tend to choose the fighter-plane option when my ships have a choice of spotter plane or fighter plane.
That said, we're discussing AA.  So, I was focusing on that.

Just discussing AA and not discussing air defense is to miss the point.

AA was never expected to operate in a vacuum of weapon systems.

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Just discussing AA and not discussing air defense is to miss the point.

AA was never expected to operate in a vacuum of weapon systems.

Well, I think we agree upon the historical use of a "layered defense" of reconnaisance and fighter patrols and AA in conjunction with ship maneuvering.

That said, player expectations may vary from historical contexts, in my anecdotal experience.  🙂 

 

[Darlith]

2 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The Saipan and the Sanzang also have no secondary-battery guns.

Yeah didn't have any premiums worth checking so had just run through the tech tree quick. Remembered the Independence because I was surprised taking it out and not having it shoot at a DD that got close.

Also I ought to note I forgot the Serov's hull upgrade upgrades its secondaries to 100mm guns with 17mm pen so it can at least pen same tier DDs after the upgrade, but still will struggle to pen anything meaningful on t8 DDs. And the Rhein can pen all the tin cans in its matchmaking range, plus does get bigger guns with its hull upgrade as well.

[Wrath_of_Deadguy]

Huh, just noticed... there's no mention of whether secondary battery dispersion will change when the guns are in manual vs. automatic mode. If the dispersion ellipse doesn't shrink in manual mode, then manual secondary control would be a nerf when controlling the hull.

If it does get a buff in manual mode, though... Graf Zeppelin go brrrrr!

[Snargfargle]

3 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

In-game AA is more effective than Pacific theater ship AA during WW-II.
Change my mind.  🙂 

There is a certain type of personality that is going to whine about everything. These people are the "tent camels" of the fable, who complain until they get their way and then complain after they have gotten their way because nothing ever will satisfy them.

Then there are people like Socrates who when he was released so that he could drink the cup of hemlock mentioned how good it felt to finally be free of his chains. When asked if he was sore with the Athenians for wrongly condemning him to death he answered "no" because he'd benefited from Athenian society for 70 years and one mistake didn't negate all the good the society had done for him.

Edited April 17 by Snargfargle

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

There is a certain type of personality that is going to whine about everything. These people are the "tent camels" of the fable, who complain until they get their way and then complain after they have gotten their way because nothing ever will satisfy them.

Then there are people like Socrates who when he was released so that he could drink the cup of hemlock mentioned how good it felt to finally be free of his chains. When asked if he was sore with the Athenians for wrongly condemning him to death he answered "no" because he'd benefited from Athenian society for 70 years and one mistake didn't negate all the good the society had done for him.

Are you discussing WG staff here or the playerbase?

😛

I could also point out that the playerbase are the ones WG has specifically recruited to play the game...and encouraged to behave this way about changes.

Don't go blaming the playerbase for issues that WG staff could fix.

As for my own whining...I find a good match in Mikasa gets me feeling joyful again. Of course, that reminds me that the best experience in the game is at tier 2, where WG has loads of potential historical content and a meta that everyone wants to play...but WG's business strategy prevents them from going for the win win...and...

Sigh.

Best just to laugh and enjoy the parts of the game that are still good.

Here's hoping someone makes a competitor game that is better.

Edited April 17 by Daniel_Allan_Clark

[Hugh_Ruka]

22 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Surface ships could theoretically relay the information.

Then you get into the same situation as we are today ... so not really an improvement ... maybe the relayed info would be minimap only ? that could work ...

[MBT808]

17 hours ago, _KlRlTO_ said:

That said, I am getting a similar vibe from Ahskance on this, which is very concerning. Towing a company line is to be expected, but it also means that credibility for trust is impossible in the face of negative company history. It also means that any statement resembling "just trust me" is in fact a statement of the opposite, as having to state such a thing means that inherently, the statement is by default not trustworthy.

I mean, Ahskance's credibility has never been stellar(some people like him, for reasons to this day I still don't understand). He never should've been made a CM really, he was not a good fit for the position based on his own statement*. As far as towing the company line, he did that before he was even an employee. He has towed the company line even when clear evidence showed he(and WG) were wrong. Ahskance is not to be trusted in my opinion, under any circumstance. Boggzy is much better to deal with comparably.

That's all I'll say on this subject, I think this discussion should be moved to a new thread so this one doesn't get derailed.

*LWM and Sailor_Moon can verify this if you have doubts. I think others like Lert were there as well. It was during one or two of the old forum threads from several years ago.

Edited April 17 by MBT808

[Admiral_Karasu]

Tugboats are needed maybe too?...

Let's see if we can pull this thread back on course.

[Admiral_Karasu]

10 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

No.

Ships never had effective air defense through their AA guns.

 

9 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

In-game AA is more effective than Pacific theater ship AA during WW-II.
Change my mind.  🙂 

 

9 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Best defense against enemy planes was your own planes.

That would make a fantastic topic for the historical section if the folks here are game.

 

https://www.devstrike.net/forum/34-historical-content/

I tried finding worthy articles on the topic, but no luck. On the other hand, I found something interesting about the American Legion's trip to Petsamo.

https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2019/december/gun-fought-all-sides

[SunkCostFallacy]

21 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Tugboats are needed maybe too?...

Let's see if we can pull this thread back on course.

I must admit I'd love to be a gull in the air (makes more sense than a fly on the wall) when they were testing this mess out.

I kinda find it odd given the detail that @LittleWhiteMouse went into to discuss the problem with Aircraft and Anti-Air and viable solutions to those problems ... that we're looking at this weirdness as their 'solution'.

 

[Jakob Knight]

12 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

You think they will even test tier 4?

 

Not sure if they will test them, but when players who want to start a new CV line see that their CVs can't do anything, they'll find out.  And T6 will be in pretty much the same boat, and that is where 'the real game' starts.

 

But yeah, I am getting the impression that, like some players in discussions in Submarines, WG is basing all their evaluation and changes on T10 units without thinking about units below that.  It's a myopia I've seen in some other games where endgame becomes all anyone thinks about and the levels below it get wrecked trying to 'fix' where the game company thinks everyone is at.  These changes certainly seem like they built them based on T10...'So they only get as many planes as are in the attack flight to make the run in....that's -six- planes, right??' .

 

 

 

[Admiral_Karasu]

23 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

Not sure if they will test them, but when players who want to start a new CV line see that their CVs can't do anything, they'll find out.  And T6 will be in pretty much the same boat, and that is where 'the real game' starts.

 

But yeah, I am getting the impression that, like some players in discussions in Submarines, WG is basing all their evaluation and changes on T10 units without thinking about units below that.  It's a myopia I've seen in some other games where endgame becomes all anyone thinks about and the levels below it get wrecked trying to 'fix' where the game company thinks everyone is at.  These changes certainly seem like they built them based on T10...'So they only get as many planes as are in the attack flight to make the run in....that's -six- planes, right??' .

 

 

 

Remind me what tiers are eligible for KOTS again?

[Jakob Knight]

2 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Remind me what tiers are eligible for KOTS again?

 

In the past the game mode allowed different Tiers, but yeah...only reinforces my suspicions.

 

As I said, I'm waiting for the trainwreck before I grab my shovel and see what can be salvaged.

 

 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

3 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

As I said, I'm waiting for the trainwreck before I grab my shovel and see what can be salvaged.

Pretty much all we can actually do.

[clammboy]

22 hours ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

One theory about the closure of the old forums is that WG needed to get rid of years of evidence which made them look duplicitous and amateur.

I don't really think they worried one iota about all that. I think they probably just got tired of spending the money the man power and time involved to run it and monitor it. Wasn't worth the time or effort to hear the constent complaints about the the stupid things we thought they did. My guess is they just got tired of it.

Edited April 17 by clammboy

[Jakob Knight]

2 hours ago, clammboy said:

I don't really think they worried one iota about all that. I think they probably just got tired of spending the money the man power and time involved to run it and monitor it. Wasn't worth the time or effort to hear the constent complaints about the the stupid things we thought they did. My guess is they just got tired of it.

 

And how they must be enjoying Discord, if so.  The old Forums were measured, restrained, and quite peaceful compared to that.

 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

35 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

And how they must be enjoying Discord, if so.  The old Forums were measured, restrained, and quite peaceful compared to that.

 

I'm betting they just ignore Discord most of the time...at least based on the lack of moderation I experienced when I was there for awhile.

Maybe it's gotten better? Or worse?

[clammboy]

8 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

And how they must be enjoying Discord, if so.  The old Forums were measured, restrained, and quite peaceful compared to that.

 

Discord is garbage it comes and goes no discussion on one topic things change so fast. No long hot threads there that keeps everyone's attention things are all over the place on discord.

Edited April 18 by clammboy