What's wrong with players? Like really

[Navalpride33]

3 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

@Navalpride33 Just the purple hues are 'outlawed'. They are used on DevStrike! the same way as the red font color on the Official World of Warships Forum. Nothing purple in any posts or signatures, please.

Of course... I wasn't informed and assumed red font was not to be use... Minor slip up... Thank you for the up to date information.

I only have one request... Send me a PM, because I almost didn't catch the note you left on the post.

[Admiral_Karasu]

1 minute ago, Navalpride33 said:

Of course... I wasn't informed and assumed red font was not to be use... Minor slip up... Thank you for the up to date information.

I only have one request... Send me a PM, because I almost didn't catch the note you left on the post.

Yeah, a good point. I kind of realized you didn't 'look back' as it were. I'll use a PM if anything like this comes up in future.

Technically, this is in the Forum guidelines, so everyone 'should know' but I suppose many may think the moderator color is red because that's what they were used to.

[Andrewbassg]

53 minutes ago, SureBridge said:

For the latter you could also assert that there is no skill in school, since all we have are indicators (grades) that do not directly measure skill. I'm not sure that this is a useful argument, since you can spend endless time failing to prove a negative.

 

So.....no. School grades are a legit and direct measurement tool of one's skill  (tho arguably imperfect) but stats in wows, being a team game, also coz some other factors, are  only indicators of one's skill. We don't have any accurate measurement of skill in wows, apart from shots fired/landed. (Ofc if we discard other possible factors. like bugs)

Edited April 2 by Andrewbassg

[Navalpride33]

1 minute ago, Type_93 said:

Now you’re just full of it bro. 

I think you meant to say you “Only” play op/over capable ships. 

The ATL is no longer OP... She has no AA, her guns only tickle... I haven't played her at all in 2024.

The Ishokaze is the weakest DD in tier 4... Haven't played her in two years maybe..

The Kami, again no AA and is a one trick pony. Her armor has been power creeped and any DD with guns can sink her fast.. She only has stealth and torps but torps only have a %8 hit rate, compared to 5 times more for guns on avg.

The Kutuzov. Worthless ship... No AA, and every high caliber gun can do high DMG on her without trying even if its angled or kitting. Shes been power creep'd over the years.

The MASS... For her tier, has the shortest gun range... Her secondaries are to weak. Her guns fails to do major DMG to anything +2 tiers above her.

At one time, the ATL and the KUTUZOV were AA OP.. Now. They're worthless ships in todays meta.

 

[Asym]

4 hours ago, Kruzenstern said:

So, by your judgement a player that has won 60% of his last 1000 matches is not a better player than one who has won 40% of his last 1000 matches, because there is no skill in wows and thus win rate cannot reflect it, yes?

This game is severely limited as far as a "validatable metric" that could be used in a SBMM.

So, to answer what I bolded in your thread:   ask yourself the question:  if a player simply plays in a Barney level division of three, how much of that is skill versus, just being there and not contributing as much of the others for the wins???

Take Ranked as another PVP mode that can be exploited statistically....  Several players I know "ranked out" by "just playing enough games" and allowing the really serious players to carry them?????? 

Individual Combat Contribution simply isn't covered by number of games won.... 

Now, if we were allowed to create a Combat Effectiveness (CE) metric, that analyzes the "direct contribution of your efforts and skills, that enabled a win...." - then, let's have a really good discussion of "what combat skills are...."

Win Rate and Skill are apples and oranges....  You can actually have an above average win rate and do very little to enable those wins !

 

[Type_93]

5 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

The ATL is no longer OP... She has no AA, her guns only tickle... I haven't played her at all in 2024.

The Ishokaze is the weakest DD in tier 4... Haven't played her in two years maybe..

The Kami, again no AA and is a one trick pony. Her armor has been power creeped and any DD with guns can sink her fast.. She only has stealth and torps but torps only have a %8 hit rate, compared to 5 times more for guns on avg.

The Kutuzov. Worthless ship... No AA, and every high caliber gun can do high DMG on her without trying even if its angled or kitting. Shes been power creep'd over the years.

The MASS... For her tier, has the shortest gun range... Her secondaries are to weak. Her guns fails to do major DMG to anything +2 tiers above her.

At one time, the ATL and the KUTUZOV were AA OP.. Now. They're worthless ships in todays meta.

 

Lmao. Dude. Those are some of the most outright OP ships in the game. You are crawfishing so bad. All of those are VERY strong in randoms even up tiered. Isokaze is tied for the most op ship at T4 with Clemson. Kami is just ridiculous at its tier along with her clones.  Kutuzov is the best light cruiser at T8 and Mass is a Lenin are the best two BB at t8. You are delusional.  But I guess you have to act dumb to keep up your point of there being no skill in the game. How’s the weather in La La land?  

[AdmiralThunder]

FWIW to anyone involved in this thread. Might I suggest you step back and look and see if you are being trolled and if so stop engaging with said troll. NA forum veterans will know of what and whom I speak. As someone with a lot of experience with this on NA do yourself a favor and just move on. The more you respond the more the troll will troll. It isn't worth it.

😎

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

2 hours ago, torino2dc said:

You misunderstand my position. I am not saying that WG hasn't done lots of bad things and that their leadership hasn't got systemic issues. These are a matter of record.

What I am saying is that there exists a middle ground between "these people are immaculate" and "there is no evil these people won't stoop to." That middle ground comes to exists as a result of debate(s), including the one we're having right now.

If we let unsubstantiated accusations of misdeeds float around uncontested, then the frame of the conversation eventually becomes completely divorced from reality. In the same way, if this forum were nothing but brainless WG cheerleading, then the conversation would also come to have no resemblance with our lived experience.  

Ah, but these accusations of misdeeds are in line with past WG leadership behavior. It is not a huge leap from WG rigging the outcome of loot boxes (adjusting RNG) to rigging the outcome of certain in game parameters (MM, fire chance, etc).

As far as I see it, the discussion point you took umbrage at fell easily into that middle ground of discussion...because we already have lots of data on the moral / ethical decision lines that WG uses.

Furthermore, WG intentionally hides a lot of this information from the player. I would all be for transparency out of WG on exactly how MM and other RNG works, coupled with practically useful server data demonstrating it working as claimed.

At no point has WG ever let the population behind those particular curtains. That is not an arbitrary choice by WG.

[Navalpride33]

6 minutes ago, Type_93 said:

Lmao. Dude. Those are some of the most outright OP ships in the game. You are crawfishing so bad. All of those are VERY strong in randoms even up tiered. Isokaze is tied for the most op ship at T4 with Clemson. Kami is just ridiculous at its tier along with her clones.  Kutuzov is the best light cruiser at T8 and Mass is a Lenin are the best two BB at t8. You are delusional.  But I guess you have to act dumb to keep up your point of there being no skill in the game. How’s the weather in La La land?  

Not in todays meta.. To bad, stats do not reset to show the actual trend.

All you stated was overall or over its lifespan. Which is distorted thinking to compare a ship from one meta to the next, disregarding power creep.

But if you insist on using overall ship stats.. THEN, you should use my overall WR% which is at %51 for-which... Its the %90 percentile for all of WOWS server populations...

I like my spot... Since WOWS is not skill based. You can live as innocent and bliss about the topic.

As owner of the ships... I've seen first hand the power creep done to the ships you posted.

So I rather play the Schors as my Fire ship... Its far better then the ATL gun wise..

[Andrewbassg]

27 minutes ago, Asym said:

Individual Combat Contribution simply isn't covered by number of games won.... 

This. Also we need to keep in mind that Wows median isn't 50. IRC is under 49. 

27 minutes ago, Asym said:

Now, if we were allowed to create a Combat Effectiveness (CE) metric, that analyzes the "direct contribution of your efforts and skills, that enabled a win...." - then, let's have a really good discussion of "what combat skills are...."

 

Yep. But here's the conundrum, there is no metric in wows that could do that. For example pot dmg can be easily attributed to using sec. So is being spotted and for how long. Spotting dmg, with cv;s around, is pretty meaningless. 

And how we account for unorthodox tactics, like '"keep'em busy"? 🙂 Also, for target selection....

Edited April 2 by Andrewbassg

[Admiral_Karasu]

Well.. the takeaway from this seems to be that if WoWS is not a skill based game, I don't have to feel bad about my stats. I'm as skilless as the next guy.

[thornzero]

So who is going to let everyone know this isn't a skill based game so people don't harass people in game when things go sour?

And now I'm going to have to adjust my goals since I'm already in the 9o%age

[lol]

[Navalpride33]

17 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Well.. the takeaway from this seems to be that if WoWS is not a skill based game, I don't have to feel bad about my stats. I'm as skilless as the next guy.

Actually, your stats are trophy purposed.. Meaning you should be happy with what you've done.

Your stats, should never make you feel down/bad or inferior.

Anyone who misuses stats other then its intended use, are by definition and its my opinion, a form of stat shaming.

[AdmiralThunder]

3 hours ago, torino2dc said:

there is no evil these people won't stoop to.

I would say WG pretty much is exactly this though. While not every single thing they do is bad they have shown time and time (and time and time and time and time ad nauseum) again that they will stoop to just about any evil, low, unethical decision, etc... I mean how long are we to keep giving them the benefit of the doubt and saying they will do better next time when that almost never happens? At some point we just have to accept they are what they are and it isn't good.

For me personally I switched to the WG is evil, and I wouldn't put anything past them, side at some point within the last 2 years. Prior to that I would defend them quite a lot actually (have been called a white knight and shill more times than I can count LOL). But, at some point, I finally learned and accepted that they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt and that they are in fact just a bad and unethical company (as a rule). What they deserve is mistrust, doubt/skepticism about what they say, and caution in your dealings with them based on their years of unethical and reprehensible actions. 

Now, I will still give them credit where credit is due don't get me wrong. They do occasionally actually do something good like the free Scharnhorst 43 at Christmas by easy play requirements in the battlepass. That was very generous and good of them and I said so. But I just don't trust them and that trust is 100% earned by their misdeeds and actions. So it isn't that everyone is unreasonable and just has it in for them but rather a case of we have learned through years of watching how they operate that they are not to be trusted and that they in fact WILL stoop to just about any low you can imagine. Let me give you an example.

The Wisconsin dockyard coming up on its face looks great for players. Everything from WG news wise has been exciting and good for the players. Only 30 total stages, you only have to buy 2 phases to get the ship (and the 2 phase starter pack at just 3200 Doubloons is a great price by dockyard standards), WV44 is a free midway reward (phase 20 I think it is - if you have it you get 3 phases as compensation which is very good), etc... Just all looks great.

HOWEVER, even after all that my internal WG early detection radar is going off because history has taught us when it comes to WG the old saying "if it is too good to be true it probably isn't" applies. I can't help wondering what aren't we being told? Also, while all those things sound great none will matter, and any good will that started to build over the early news on the event will evaporate, if this is a super hard grind. This could be another OG Puerto Rico dockyard fiasco where all the news leading up to it was awesome until it actually went live and turned into the biggest disaster they ever had because the requirements were insane (as was their response to player outrage).

I need to see the requirements for the Wisconsin dockyard before I truly believe they are offering a good one for the players as they are saying (I will be one of the first to commend them if it in fact is good for the players). They probably are as I think they are trying to lure in new players to spend and hook them (specifically the ones from the streamer Capt thing that recently started playing). So even if it ends up good for players, honestly, it feels like it is kind of sleezy at the same time which is just typical WG. There always seems to be some extra motive beyond just doing the players a solid. Even if there isn't anything "bad" in a given event all the other times there were come back to haunt them.

So again, this is earned mistrust and negative comments. It isn't about the forum being unjustly negative or anything it is just WG reaping what they sowed. The onus is actually on WG at this point to start acting more ethical and to treat the playerbase better to earn some trust back. They started doing that after the CC fiasco but have back slid since and lost any progress made. I do think when they do something good we should all acknowledge it. I actually feel I post fairly about them as do most others. I just post based on what they do and if that ends up being mostly negative the problem isn't me because I WILL post positive when it is deserved. That just happens less and less these days. I know many players who post similar to me (fair and based on their actions).

Note - I am sticking to our agree to disagree thing from earlier. I consider this response unrelated to our earlier conversation. This is more a general thing vs specific to what you posted to me earlier. Also, no offense is intended. Just discussing.

[AdmiralThunder]

33 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Well.. the takeaway from this seems to be that if WoWS is not a skill based game, I don't have to feel bad about my stats. I'm as skilless as the next guy.

And all my hard work raising my WR% from 41.52% to the 57%+ it is now had nothing to do with me working at improving and was all luck apparently. Man what a waste of my time.

[Andrewbassg]

30 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Well.. the takeaway from this seems to be that if WoWS is not a skill based game,

 

9 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Actually, your stats are trophy purposed

Oh man.....I wish that this would have been true , when got shot to smithers by a worked up NOCAP player in 1v1. And again. And again. And again. And again. Etc.....

 

[Andrewbassg]

17 minutes ago, thornzero said:

So who is going to let everyone know this isn't a skill based game so people don't harass people in game when things go sour?

Oh come on man.....U wanna take away the ..... fun?? 

Edited April 2 by Andrewbassg

[MnemonScarlet]

On 4/1/2024 at 6:01 AM, Admiral_Karasu said:

Isn't the ranked system supposed to sort the players out so that the completely hopeless players like me don't get to mess up things for the better players in ranked. I've tried ranked and I lose more battles than I win. Like someone has said, 'I push the "W" key 4 times, and the "1' key twice, and click the left mouse button a lot, then KABOOM! stuff happens' and I get to press 'Battle On' once and the problem gets solved... as it were...

The leagues aren't really an effective barrier, if someone pushes battle enough times they'll get to Gold eventually. It does depend on your luck too to some extent, but generally you can get there if you're willing to devote the time. Even in the old ranked system people could fail their way up, but it was a lot more rare to see poor players in the very high brackets IIRC.

[Admiral_Karasu]

7 minutes ago, MnemonScarlet said:

The leagues aren't really an effective barrier, if someone pushes battle enough times they'll get to Gold eventually. It does depend on your luck too to some extent, but generally you can get there if you're willing to devote the time. Even in the old ranked system people could fail their way up, but it was a lot more rare to see poor players in the very high brackets IIRC.

Well, maybe the Irish can pull that off on luck alone, I sure can't.

[torino2dc]

29 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

4 hours ago, torino2dc said:

there is no evil these people won't stoop to.

I would say WG pretty much is exactly this though. While not every single thing they do is bad they have shown time and time (and time and time and time and time ad nauseum) again that they will stoop to just about any evil, low, unethical decision, etc... I mean how long are we to keep giving them the benefit of the doubt and saying they will do better next time when that almost never happens? At some point we just have to accept they are what they are and it isn't good.

You are entitled to your mistrust and I am not here to try to talk you out of it. Personally, I have a high level of trust in WG -- to be some mixture of incompetent, lazy, greedy, and shortsighted at all times.

What I continue to push back on is the idea that just because a person or company has a record of doing bad stuff, that it's okay to pile on invented stuff they might have done 'because that's what an evil person/company would do.' I am not arguing it because I have some deep-seated love for WG, but purely out of civic self interest: the maxim "innocent until proven guilty" only works if it applies universally, no exceptions. I don't want someone to be able to freely say baseless things about me, so I defend WGs right to the same treatment, even if that means holding my nose while I do it. 

[HogHammer]

With eight pages of comments now, I need to make a couple of observations.

(1)  The original post by @Wulf_Ace was a post on his frustration with the player base he has recently experienced.  When I read it, it was something I could relate to, and I'm sure many here have, at times, experienced the same level of frustration.  To sum it up, players are not aware of their own roles or the roles/capabilities of their ships during battles.  It's the "what in the world are you/they doing" moment you may have said to yourself during a battle.  And despite any wins along the way, these games are the ones that somehow get burned in your memory.  

(2)  From a post "venting" about one's frustration, the thread has digressed somewhat into player stats (who's right or wrong in defining), views of overpowered ships, WG being untrustworthy, and some chest-thumping.  It's not direct personal attacks yet, but it's darn close to it.

Just remember, World of Warships is a game. It offers many modes of play that suit individual tastes and styles.  Some battles you win, and others you lose - despite your effort.  This is also what I hear and see in other games, so WoWs is NOT unique in this aspect.

Please do not lose sight of this in your discussions.  Many have deep opinions here; whether you agree or disagree, keep it civil and respectful.  Make your point and move on.

 

[Aethervox]

4 hours ago, Type_93 said:

The Kami,

I'd take the Kamikaze if Wedgie gave it to me since I failed to get it when it was easy to obtain 😁

[Aethervox]

On 3/31/2024 at 10:17 AM, Wulf_Ace said:

I ask you, is there any help, not to this game, but to the playerbase in general,

My experience from late Alpha testing to the present (on my main account) is this - WoWS was good in the early years as was, in general, the player base. The abyss opened when Wedgie reworked CVs. Far too many alterations, mostly, bad, since then (imo). A lot of good players have left so that we see a lot of very poor players in WoWS now. This fact is extremely frustrating, especially, when just a few of these types of player ruin your teams chance to win in a battle. I play almost exclusively randoms, btw. Does Wedgie care? I, personally doubt this. My opinion is Wedgie only cares to churn the player base to maximize their income stream. 

[BOBTHEBALL]

14 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Why though? There are two teams in every battle, why do the bad players lose more compared to the good players unless ... ?

Because when the bad players "try" to influence the match they die and lose.

[BOBTHEBALL]

6 hours ago, Type_93 said:

Now you’re just full of it bro. 

I think you meant to say you “Only” play op/over capable ships. 

Atlanta is kinda mid now. However sealclubbing in lower tiers as a way to pad statistics is quite sad and I'd say it's an indication of not enjoying higher tier. For whatever reasons...