History of US Military Firearms Development

[Wolfswetpaws]

7 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

It would probably cost more in gas to get to you and back than the ammo was worth. Thanks for the offer though. My "jungle carbine" kicks like a mule so I'd likely not shoot it much now anyway. I used to go coyote hunting with it when I was in high school but the pelts were worth $100 back then, and that was in 1970s money. The reason was that the Air Force cold-weather parka hoods were being lined with coyote fur at the time. When they went over to synthetic "fur" the bottom dropped out of the coyote fur market.

This is the same model as my SMLE. It's actually a 1918 Mk III* converted to a "jungle carbine." I got it out just now and could barely make out the sights. I'd have to figure out how to mount a Red Dot on it to even hit anything with it anymore.  Mine's still got a good bore but is a lot more beat up looking than this one after being my great uncle's "throw in the truck" rifle for twenty years before he gave it to me and my "throw in the truck rifle" after that.

 

 

Mounting a scope on various version of the SMLE is problematic.
There is at least one aftermarket "no drilling required" mount for the No.4 Mk-1/Mk-2 rifle.  But, I tried it and it didn't work.
The original "sniper" versions of SMLE rifles were taken to an armourer and were drilled & tapped for the scope mounts.
Unless this was done while the rifle was still in the British (or other Nation's) military, then drilling & tapping will degrade the "collector value" of the rifle (even if done properly).
That said, there are plenty of rifles that have been modified by their civilian owners and they can be interesting conversation pieces and fulfill the purpose(s) of their owners.

Aside from a handful of prototypes, the actual Rifle No. 5 Mk-1 rifles are well documented by authors, such as Ian Skennerton, and serious collectors know what to look for to determine authenticity.  There are fakes and knock-offs and customizations out there.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  🙂 

[Wolfswetpaws]

6 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

I seem to remember my father telling me something similar, when he got his corporal's stripes, they were issued with submachineguns  and those were heavy and clunky. IIRC, also when you were dissembling it you had to be extra careful. I don't remember the details, it's a long time ago father mentioned these things to me.

They fired from the "open bolt" position, if I recall correctly.

Here's more info...

 
 

[Snargfargle]

13 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

There are plenty of rifles that have been modified by their civilian owners and they can be interesting conversation pieces and fulfill the purpose(s) of their owners.

My "jungle carbine" is a well-known replica of the No. 5 by Santa Fe Arms, who imported thousands of surplus SMLE's and converted them to the popular "jungle carbine" style. While not "authentic" or collector's items, they did make really good "pickup truck" guns for people like farmers, ranchers, and surveyors who occasionally needed a rifle. Surplus .303 ammo also used to be dirt cheap and available at just about every hardware and farm supply store.

There is no indication whatsoever of fakery in those Santa Fe "jungle carbines" because the original SMLE serial numbers have been stamped out and new re-manufacturer's serial numbers stamped in their place, plus the barrel is stamped with this.

Unlike many military surplus SMLEs that have shot-out bores, mine had a brand-new barrel when it was new and it's probably had only about 500 rounds put through it since.

I saw a guy who had milled a flat on the receiver and used it and the split stripper clip guide to mount a scope rail. However, that would be more of a hassle than it would be worth for a $150 rifle.

If I was going to go deer hunting again I'd probably get me a modern, scoped muzzleloading rifle as the muzzleloader antlerless deer permits can be had for the asking here but you have to enter a draw for modern rifle antlered deer permits, and they are more expensive too.

[Snargfargle]

1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

They fired from the "open bolt" position, if I recall correctly.

Yes they do. I had the opportunity to go out and fire the grease guns a few times. Loading the magazines was done with a little lever thing you used to cam in each round. It was a hassle so I'd trade a half-dozen loaded magazines to a troop for the use of his grease gun after he'd qualified on it. Trading favors allowed me to fire just about every weapon in the Army inventory. I qualified on most of them but the sergeant major told me that, as a medic, it was against the Geneva Conventions to put qualifications for any crew-served weapons into my records. 

They were about as accurate as my M1911A1, .45 pistol; that is, you could hit an Army silhouette most of the time time at 50 meters with them. No select fire on those things -- it was full auto or finger off the trigger. The "safety" was closing the dust cover, which blocked the bolt from going forward. They had to be well-oiled to work properly too and the oil always splattered all over my glasses.

Ian of Forgotten Weapons never served in the military but is probably at least as qualified in small arms as a Special Forces Weapons Sergeant. His would have been my dream job when I was young.  

Edited March 10 by Snargfargle

[Wolfswetpaws]

13 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

My "jungle carbine" is a well-known replica of the No. 5 by Santa Fe Arms, who imported thousands of surplus SMLE's and converted them to the popular "jungle carbine" style. While not "authentic" or collector's items, they did make really good "pickup truck" guns for people like farmers, ranchers, and surveyors who occasionally needed a rifle. Surplus .303 ammo also used to be dirt cheap and available at just about every hardware and farm supply store.

There is no indication whatsoever of fakery in those Santa Fe "jungle carbines" because the original SMLE serial numbers have been stamped out and new re-manufacturer's serial numbers stamped in their place, plus the barrel is stamped with this.

Unlike many military surplus SMLEs that have shot-out bores, mine had a brand-new barrel when it was new and it's probably had only about 500 rounds put through it since.

I saw a guy who had milled a flat on the receiver and used it and the split stripper clip guide to mount a scope rail. However, that would be more of a hassle than it would be worth for a $150 rifle.

If I was going to go deer hunting again I'd probably get me a modern, scoped muzzleloading rifle as the muzzleloader antlerless deer permits can be had for the asking here but you have to enter a draw for modern rifle antlered deer permits, and they are more expensive too.

Ah, so a "conversion" done by a manufacturer (Santa Fe, specifically).
Yeah, there are a few gun-magazine articles about them, over the decades.  
Glad you're happy with yours.

[Snargfargle]

10 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Ah, so a "conversion" done by a manufacturer (Santa Fe, specifically).

In the 50s and 60s few people were looking to collect old military rifles because there were tens of thousands of WWII surplus rifles used to be dirt cheap. I remember when you could buy an M1 carbine from an ad in the NRA magazine for $16. Unfortunately, the .30 carbine was considered too weak to hunt deer with in many states so the "poor man's " deer rifle was oftentimes an Arisaka or a SMLE. Most of these were "sporterized" to look like commercial deer rifles because nobody wanted to hunt with a long, heavy, military rifle like the one they'd carried themselves in the war. The "jungle carbines" were the exception as they were considered "cool" by the kids of the veterans or people who hadn't served. Essentially, they were the AR-15 of their day.

So, were all guns dirt cheap in the 60s? Well, a bit of research shows that a new M1911 form Colt cost $87.70 in 1965. Man, give me ten of them at that price! However, those are 1960s dollars too. $1 in 1965 equals $9.79 today so the same gun would cost $858.60 in 2024 dollars. Currently, a Springfield M1911 costs $620.

I sort of kick myself for selling my guns over the years but also realize that I never was wealthy enough to own more than one at a time so I had to sell the one I had to pay for the new one I wanted. Why did I always want something different? Who knows? Probably because as soon as I get familiar with something I get bored with it. It's both a character flaw and a "Socratic gadfly" that keeps me from falling into lifestyle ruts. I bought a Remington 788 in .243 when I was in high school for $100. I could hit a quarter taped to a fence post at 100 yards with that rifle. However, college tuition was $900, which included a semester of room and board and I was only making $2 an hour working on a farm so it had to go. That rifle would cost $575 today. Currently, a Remington 783 in .243 sells for $480.

Who would have thought it, guns are actually less expensive today.

Well, how about ammo? A brick of 500 Remington .22s cost five bucks at the local hardware when I was a kid. That would be $40 in today's dollars. A 525-round box of Remington .22s costs $33 today. Ammo is cheaper today too.

Edited March 10 by Snargfargle

[Snargfargle]

Speaking of US military weapons, why didn't the US government use the "better" repeating rifles that were available as their main battle rifle after the Civil War? One reason is that the "brass" didn't want the soldiers to have the opportunity to fire too quickly during a battle. Unlike today's military, the common cavalry soldier in the late 19th century may have only fired a few rounds out of his rifle in training. He probably got more practice shooting when going out hunting for game around the post with his personal rifle.

The tendency of less-trained soldiers is to fire just as fast as they possibly can when attacked. This might not be all that much of a bad thing for suppressive fire when you are carrying 240 rounds and resupply is available within a half hour. However, when the ammo train is a day's ride behind the column, and re-supplying it takes weeks, firing off your ammo too quickly becomes more of an issue.

At the Little Bighorn Battle, each US cavalryman carried only 50 rifle rounds, with another 50 of his issue back with the pack train. That's why when Custer sighted the Sioux camp he immediately wrote for Benteen to "bring packs." Unfortunately, he'd apparently forgotten that because he didn't like Benteen, he had sent him out on a scouting mission away from the Indian camp so that he wouldn't get there in time to bask in too much of the "glory" of the victory of capturing it.

When Benteen got Custer's message he began heading to his last known position. Only to run into Reno's decimated command who were fleeing from the Indians.

"For God's sake, Benteen, halt your command and help me. I've lost half my men." -- Major Reno

If Benteen had left Reno to his own devices and headed toward Custer, not only would Reno's command have been wiped out like Custer's was, Benteen's command would likely have too when it came upon the hundreds of Indians who were merrily finishing off Custer's command. Even though Benteen and Reno's men dug in and were supplied with the ammo packs, it was a hard fight and had it not been for the Indians spying Terry's column approaching and leaving the next day, Benteen's command would have eventually been wiped out due to lack of water and ammunition. 

Was Custer a complete fool? Well, yes and no. He had success in rallying his troops during the Civil War by dashing headlong into battle. However, it was probably sheer luck that he survived the war. Why did he send Reno to attack the south end of the Indian camp while he attacked the north end? Well, because it had worked for him previously. In earlier engagements he had sent part of his command to attack an Indian camp and when the Warriors all ran out to defend it, and the women and children fled, he would swoop in and round up the women and children and hold them hostage until the warriors surrendered. This would likely have worked again at the Little Bighorn, had not the Indian warriors outnumbered his command four to one.

Remember too that the Sioux were still essentially hunter-gatherers. While the US Calvary was wearily riding for days on end, the Sioux warriors were out stalking and shooting game every day. I could pick two dozen really good non-veteran hunters that I've known and they'd be an equal match for your average Infantry platoon in a small-arms battle.

Edited March 11 by Snargfargle

[Ensign Cthulhu]

On 3/9/2024 at 8:04 PM, Snargfargle said:

There is no indication whatsoever of fakery in those Santa Fe "jungle carbines" because the original SMLE serial numbers have been stamped out and new re-manufacturer's serial numbers stamped in their place, plus the barrel is stamped with this.

Technically it is a "fake", but it's an "honest" one since there's no way even a mildly attentive buyer can be fooled into thinking it's the real thing. 

13 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

hm preciously.

Typo. Should be "him previously". OTOH 'preciously' puts a whole new spin on the widely held viewpoint that he was an incompetent primadonna. 

[Snargfargle]

17 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Typo. Should be "him previously". OTOH 'preciously' puts a whole new spin on the widely held viewpoint that he was an incompetent primadonna. 

 

You caught me in the middle of an edit. I noticed that my spell checker had switched words on me.

Fun fact: I went to college in a town that has an old fort next to it that Custer once commanded. In fact, Fort Hays State University is named after Fort Hays. Between the college and the fort is a herd of bison. Wild Bill Hickok was the marshal of Hays at one time. Another "bill," Buffalo Bill Cody, co-founded the city.

Edited March 11 by Snargfargle

[Asym]

On 3/10/2024 at 8:01 PM, Snargfargle said:

 

You caught me in the middle of an edit. I noticed that my spell checker had switched words on me.

Fun fact: I went to college in a town that has an old fort next to it that Custer once commanded. In fact, Fort Hays State University is named after Fort Hays. Between the college and the fort is a herd of bison. Wild Bill Hickok was the marshal of Hays at one time. Another "bill," Buffalo Bill Cody, co-founded the city.

Shhhhh!   People have no idea about Kansas...  Let's keep it quiet so they don't want to resettle here from CA or NY....  We have a good deal being a "non-entity" and a waste land !    What history.........all we do is grow Cotton and sometimes wheat !

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

5 minutes ago, Asym said:

Shhhhh!   People have no idea about Kansas...  Let's keep it quiet so they don't want to resettle here from CA or NY....  We have a good deal being a "non-entity" and a waste land !    What history.........all we do is grow Cotton and sometimes wheat !

 

There's more to Kansas than can be seen from a passenger jet flying-over the state.

[Snargfargle]

2 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

There's more to Kansas than can be seen from a passenger jet flying-over the state.

 

2 hours ago, Asym said:

Shhhhh!   People have no idea about Kansas... 

Kansas is a lot like classic Dr Who -- you have to sort of read between the lines to appreciate it.

Today, I went out and watched them burn the county line pasture. The last time I went out shooting I noticed that they had mowed along the fence lines and figured that a burn was coming up shortly. Pretty soon the grass will start growing and they will be putting cattle on it. Unfortunately for me, that's my shooting pasture so I'll have to go somewhere else. You can still shoot when cattle are on the pasture but it's a nuisance because these are farm cattle being pastured for the summer and they will chase your pickup around hoping that you're going to drop a bale of hay for them to eat. The wind is amazingly calm today, only 5 mph, so it's a good day to burn.

I used to help move cattle off the government when I was in high school. It's pretty easy, all you have to do is ride a horse and just look around and enjoy the scenery. Your horse knows what to do. In fact, if you try to get him to do something he's not supposed to do he will look back at you and snort to tell you to stop being an idiot and let him get on with his job. 

I went up on the river and did some shooting instead. They need to burn there too. The wet spring we had last year really made the weeds grow. I had to whack a path through chest-high sunflowers and other fall composites to set up my target. I was shooting 2" groups at 50 yards with my new scope setup. That's not terribly bad considering my .22 rifle is 86 years old and probably has had 30,000 rounds put through it. The rifling is well worn but still visible. I was shooting cheap bulk ammo too. Saw a red-tailed hawk building a nest and some ducks on one of the stock ponds. It's still in the 20s at night so I doubt that the snakes are out yet though. It's fun driving the roads at night in the summer and looking for snakes. 

[Ensign Cthulhu]

30 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

You can still shoot when cattle are on the pasture but it's a nuisance because

I shot rabbits on someone's property once (with written permission, just to be clear) and had to cross the field in which the bull lived. I was very super ultra (insert adjectives to your heart's content) aware that if it charged me, the rifle would be of absolutely no use. Fortunately, said bull decided to treat me as no more than a curiosity. 

[Snargfargle]

22 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

 Fortunately, said bull decided to treat me as no more than a curiosity. 

[Snargfargle]

When James Madison was asked by a civilian ship owner if the 2nd Amendment allowed him to mount cannon on his merchant ships, the answer was a resounding yes. In fact, the body of the Constitution itself allows the US government to hire private mercenaries, which are assumed to be armed just as well as the US military. Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11 allows Congress to “grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal.” Privately-owned ship's cannons were used on American privateers in the War of 1812, with more than 500 letters of marque issued. Andrew Jackson borrowed several cannon from the privateer Lafitte to use as field artillery pieces during the Battle of New Orleans.

Most people don't know this but you can still personally own and fire a cannon in most of the states of the US.

"Muzzleloading cannons manufactured in or before 1898 (and replicas thereof) that are not capable of firing fixed ammunition are considered antiques and not subject to the provisions of either the Gun Control Act (GCA) or National Firearms Act (NFA). [26 U.S.C. 5845; 27 CFR 479.11]" -- Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-muzzleloading-cannons-considered-destructive-devices

If you want to purchase a modern cannon you will have to buy a federal tax stamp and register it but it's still perfectly legal.

Today, private mercenaries, called "contractors," comprise 10% of US special operations forces and, as of 2020, outnumbered active US military 1.5 to 1 in CENTCOM, though this may have changed in light of more recent events.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/us-military-forces-fy-2020-sof-civilians-contractors-and-nukes

 

Edited March 20 by Snargfargle

[Ensign Cthulhu]

On 3/20/2024 at 5:12 PM, Snargfargle said:

"503 Service Unavailable"

[Snargfargle]

27 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

"503 Service Unavailable"

Can you not see the picture? Or are you rolling on the floor laughing so hard that your server went down? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

Can you not see the picture? Or are you rolling on the floor laughing so hard that your server went down? Inquiring minds want to know.

I can see the images.
I use Opera as a web-browser. 
I'm guessing the file-hosting service is just a tad slow? 
Or things are more difficult to import/export over the Canadian border where @Ensign Cthulhu is located?  🙂 

[Ensign Cthulhu]

2 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

Can you not see the picture? Or are you rolling on the floor laughing so hard that your server went down? Inquiring minds want to know.

OK I can see it now. Whatever was happening before resolved itself.

Well done, sir.

[Snargfargle]

A man who works at a washing machine factory can't afford a washing machine himself. Therefore, each Friday, for years, he brings home a piece of the machine. However, when he finally has all the pieces, no matter how he assembles them, he always ends up with a machine gun.

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

58 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

A man who works at a washing machine factory can't afford a washing machine himself. Therefore, each Friday, for years, he brings home a piece of the machine. However, when he finally has all the pieces, no matter how he assembles them, he always ends up with a machine gun.

 

Nice find.  Thanks for sharing.