Yeah.....sub changes are not really working. And defo not what actually is needed.

[MnemonScarlet]

9 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

You missed the point.  The meta was already poisoned before Subs were even in the game.  The cause was that, as discussed previously, the game began changing over time to cater to the non-team players, beginning most notably when RTS CVs had the actual ability to interfere with each other removed and the introduction of Radar.  Players no longer had to act as a team or face defeat, but could indulge in 'my game my way', which included ignoring others on their team.

 

The meta you are looking for has been gone for years now except in Ranked, Ops, and maybe CB/KOTS, and even those are showing the signs of deterioration when Subs are almost or totally non-existent in them.

Your point is essentially irrelevant to what I am saying, because I did not claim the game before the asymmetric classes became popular didn't have problems, just that it has gotten even worse. You simply want to strawman a minor aspect of something I said because you cannot address the rest, but dislike that I am saying it. If that is all you have on this, feel free to stop replying to me on this.

And to digress...

To the matter of radar, I should also add that if you are decent with DD radar should not be a problem for you unless you get caught out by it when a ship you didn't realize was there radared you. Let us use myself as an example:

When I was uptiered in my mid-tier DDs to radar-common tiers (or even in my T8s), radar was not something I even cared about unless it was everywhere. I once baited some DM into using all his radar charges on my Asashio (probably because all his BBs on our flank were screaming for him to handle me), and he never got to kill me. I just feinted in and baited him until he ran dry, then rushed up with a push and helped gun him down by getting inside his turret rotation speed. I was laughing half of that game, imagining him impotently mad about not being able to get me killed.

No, what made me stop trying to make my toptier DDs work was the fact that I chose mostly fat ones (groz, aki/kita, etc) to play as my first ones, and that I had no good answer on how to do good damage at the extended engagement ranges at T9 and 10 with a DD. Not being able to get my damage annoyed me (and it was causing me to make mistakes and get killed), so I quit learning the class at those tiers. Maybe someday I'll go back, if the meta recovers from where it is now.

But radar? Radar was laughable. You should be able to deal with radar ships and still get work done if you have your chops as a DD. That should not be the reason you stop playing. Baiting radar is simple. You don't need teammates' help to deal with being radared unless you walk right into it.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

26 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

You missed the point.  The meta was already poisoned before Subs were even in the game.  The cause was that, as discussed previously, the game began changing over time to cater to the non-team players, beginning most notably when RTS CVs had the actual ability to interfere with each other removed and the introduction of Radar.  Players no longer had to act as a team or face defeat, but could indulge in 'my game my way', which included ignoring others on their team.

 

The meta you are looking for has been gone for years now except in Ranked, Ops, and maybe CB/KOTS, and even those are showing the signs of deterioration when Subs are almost or totally non-existent in them.

 

 

That shift in mentality to personal gain was primarily driven by WGs changes to the reward structure to prioritize damage dealing instead of other team assisting activities.

[Jakob Knight]

17 minutes ago, MnemonScarlet said:

Your point is essentially irrelevant to what I am saying, because I did not claim the game before the asymmetric classes became popular didn't have problems, just that it has gotten even worse. You simply want to strawman a minor aspect of something I said because you cannot address the rest, but dislike that I am saying it. If that is all you have on this, feel free to stop replying to me on this.

And to digress...

To the matter of radar, I should also add that if you are decent with DD radar should not be a problem for you unless you get caught out by it when a ship you didn't realize was there radared you. Let us use myself as an example:

When I was uptiered in my mid-tier DDs to radar-common tiers (or even in my T8s), radar was not something I even cared about unless it was everywhere. I once baited some DM into using all his radar charges on my Asashio (probably because all his BBs on our flank were screaming for him to handle me), and he never got to kill me. I just feinted in and baited him until he ran dry, then rushed up with a push and helped gun him down by getting inside his turret rotation speed. I was laughing half of that game, imagining him impotently mad about not being able to get me killed.

No, what made me stop trying to make my toptier DDs work was the fact that I chose mostly fat ones (groz, aki/kita, etc) to play as my first ones, and that I had no good answer on how to do good damage at the extended engagement ranges at T9 and 10 with a DD. Not being able to get my damage annoyed me (and it was causing me to make mistakes and get killed), so I quit learning the class at those tiers. Maybe someday I'll go back, if the meta recovers from where it is now.

But radar? Radar was laughable. You should be able to deal with radar ships and still get work done if you have your chops as a DD. That should not be the reason you stop playing. Baiting radar is simple. You don't need teammates' help to deal with being radared unless you walk right into it.

 

Again, you don't understand.  It wasn't that radar was a problem for skilled players.  It was that it was a change in the game that eroded previous enforcement conditions in the game that made team play important to succeeding in battle.  With radar in the game, the need to preserve your own DDs and have them as escorts diminished for other types of ships by providing a mechanism to evade the consequences of facing DDs without your own.  Having a radar equipped ship on your team or yourself meant not caring as much if your own DDs died and a sense they were not as valuable as preserving your own goals in the game.

 

As for not continuing to reply to your posts, this is the forums.  If your goal was only to have agreeing replies to your own, you are probably in the wrong place.  I have a different opinion, and so I voice it along with my reasons for it.  My purpose is to explain why I feel you are mistaken and if that aggravated you, I am sorry but calling for someone to stop speaking is not helpful.

 

[ArIskandir]

26 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

That shift in mentality to personal gain was primarily driven by WGs changes to the reward structure to prioritize damage dealing instead of other team assisting activities.

Nah, don't blame WG on that mentality... uncompromising focus on personal gain is the Zeitgeist of this age. 

[MnemonScarlet]

15 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

Again, you don't understand.  It wasn't that radar was a problem for skilled players.  It was that it was a change in the game that eroded previous enforcement conditions in the game that made team play important to succeeding in battle.  With radar in the game, the need to preserve your own DDs and have them as escorts diminished for other types of ships by providing a mechanism to evade the consequences of facing DDs without your own.  Having a radar equipped ship on your team or yourself meant not caring as much if your own DDs died and a sense they were not as valuable as preserving your own goals in the game.

 

As for not continuing to reply to your posts, this is the forums.  If your goal was only to have agreeing replies to your own, you are probably in the wrong place.  I have a different opinion, and so I voice it along with my reasons for it.  My purpose is to explain why I feel you are mistaken and if that aggravated you, I am sorry but calling for someone to stop speaking is not helpful.

I took for granted that you understood radar was a necessary addition to the game, but I see I will have to address this. The vision system of the game has always been flawed, and before subs were around, DDs were the primary beneficiaries of this, and it's why rework CVs being everywhere curtailed them so hard beyond the ease of use for the original rocket squadrons and a couple bomb squadrons. I've heard this from DD players better than either of us. The game needed radar to at least force DDs to not simply have it their way in most situations near an objective, and for smoke tactics. You can contest this if you like, but you are wrong, as even WG realized this and implemented radar in a wide range of ships to counteract the massive influence DDs had on release. This wasn't done 'because of whiners'. I had relatively few issues with DDs even back in the day, but I can still recognize it as something they needed to do.

The relative lack of teamwork even when the game was younger insured that even a flawed tool like radar was necessary. And even nowadays, good DDs still do work, it's just become a more stressful environment. And what limited amount of teamplay has always existed in this game is still more or less something you want to win, because in 12v12 most of the time one ship will not do enough to carry a game all by itself. Losing all of your DDs is still miserable.

In other words, your point remains irrelevant to mine.

Edited March 13 by MnemonScarlet

[MBT808]

2 hours ago, MnemonScarlet said:

This is a team game (though it's obviously very flawed as one in a number of ways), so classes that're less beholden to the team due to qualities that let them play their own game and yet still get even roughly comparable results are by definition overtuned.

At least as far as the surface ships classes, team play is very powerful. Problem is, most people don’t play the respective classes properly and it causes the team play aspect to break down. The quality of players has been on a downward spiral since the CV rework(this, in my opinion, was ground zero for the decline of WoWs). Teams used to be far better than what we have now before all the good players(comparable to me or better) started leaving in droves. It used to be maybe 1 blow out for every 10 roughly evenly matched games, now it’s the opposite. Part of the problem is the break down of team play with surface ships as well as ships like subs that disrupt team play(CVs as well, but they can work with surface ships to a degree where as subs don’t).

BBs for example are played by people who risk nothing, which puts CA/CL and DDs in awkward positions and unable to do their jobs. BBs who actually push forward and brawl/tank, more often than not can win games. Pushing puts a great deal of pressure on the enemy team and because of the low quality of players, a well executed push by BBs(supported by CA/CL and DDs of course, a three of the surface ships compliment each other and perform best working in tandem) will decide the game.

CA/CLs can’t get close enough to effectively utilize radar(not always to kill, but it can be very valuable area denial) and support DDs with cover fire. Cruisers often make very poor plays and don’t manage risk well(which is why they need BBs to push up with them to help mitigate risk).

DDs skill floor is so high that I doubt even 75% of the current player base can even be qualified to captain them. They either play too passively, lack any sort of common sense, lack the situational awareness necessary to play the class, put their ships in terrible situations, etc. DDs generally also struggle from the above two not really performing their roles from a team play perspective.

CVs have too much battle impact generally, get tons of hand holding than none of the other classes get. Counter play got so badly gutted it’s not even funny. Still, CVs can work with surface ships so they can fit into the team play aspect of wows. They need to be fixed badly though, but I doubt WG has it in them to do what’s necessary to make the class balanced.

Subs fundamentally shouldn’t have been introduced into the game. As has been pointed out many times, WoWs is a team game. Subs fly in the face of this and are lone wolves. They have almost no team play capability unless spotting. Most sub captains won’t help contribute to the team’s victory. Subs represent single player game design in a multiplayer focused game. Which is why they don’t work and never will.

Edited March 13 by MBT808

[MnemonScarlet]

13 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

At least as far as the surface ships classes, team play is very powerful. Problem is, most people don’t play the respective classes properly and it causes the team play aspect to break down. The quality of players has been on a downward spiral since the CV rework(this, in my opinion, was ground zero for the decline of WoWs). Teams used to be far better than what we have now before all the good players(comparable to me or better) started leaving in droves. It used to be maybe 1 blow out for every 10 roughly evenly matched games, now it’s the opposite. Part of the problem is the break down of team play with surface ships as well as ships like subs that disrupt team play(CVs as well, but they can work with surface ships to a degree where as subs don’t).

I'd agree, teamplay is powerful. That's why divs have such an outsize impact, because it's 3 people coordinating together better than 3 separate people probably would. And the CV rework is what really began to tank it, because it pushed a lot of at least decent players away from the game.

Though I will say that although rework CVs ruined the old positional play we saw more often in 2018 and before, they brought a different kind of teamplay: focus fire teamplay. :V

Unfortunately that 'vision of most maneuver play' is something a lot of us find stale and unfun. It's not even fun as a BB, the least mobile of the three normal classes, because after enough games of it the lack of dynamism becomes stifling.

15 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

BBs for example are played by people who risk nothing, which puts CA/CL and DDs in awkward positions and unable to do their jobs.

You can be more proactive and at least apply pressure by taking a good position, but you better know how to pull out before it's too late. Most BB players somehow still don't know how to do this.

16 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

CA/CLs can’t get close enough to effectively utilize radar(not always to kill, but it can be very valuable area denial) and support DDs with cover fire. Cruisers often make very poor plays and don’t manage risk well(which is why they need BBs to push up with them to help mitigate risk).

DDs skill floor is so high that I doubt even 75% of the current player base can even be qualified to captain them. They either play too passively, lack any sort of common sense, lack the situational awareness necessary to play the class, put their ships in terrible situations, etc. DDs generally also struggle from the above two not really performing their roles from a team play perspective.

Cruisers are fairly miserable to play nowadays unless you're pretty good at them. Most cruiser players also don't realize that even if a BB is there in your area, if you show the juicy cruiser bits people thirsting for damage will focus you no matter what the BB does to stop them. So it's no surprise you see fewer cruisers nowadays.

As for DDs, there should probably be some sort of WR-per-tier-of-them floor that you need to play a DD at the next highest tier, because as you say the situation with DD players is just that bad.

19 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

CVs have too much battle impact generally, get tons of hand holding than none of the other classes get. Counter play got so badly gutted it’s not even funny. Still, CVs can work with surface ships so they can fit into the team play aspect of wows. They need to be fixed badly though, but I doubt WG has it in them to do what’s necessary to make the class balanced.

I think WG is finally waking up to the fact that they need to de-tune CVs, hopefully the excessive vision they provide will be neutered. Counterplay like in the old days with actual AA builds that would make a CV never want to come near you probably won't return besides the few ships that sorta do it now.

20 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

Subs fundamentally shouldn’t have been introduced into the game. As has been pointed out many times, WoWs is a team game. Subs fly in the face of this and are lone wolves. They have almost no team play capability unless spotting. Most sub captains won’t help contribute to the team’s victory. Subs represent single player game design in a multiplayer focused game. Which is why they don’t work and never will.

Subs do have one teamplay method available, as I mentioned in my first post. It's basically 'hiding' with your team so you can't be singled out, and opportunistically providing a spike-damage tax for any opposing ships that engage your flank. Done properly it's pretty toxic to deal with, since you can't really counter a sub very effectively while under the guns of his teammates. It's not the same as being shotgunned by some Gato who wasn't seen until he got you, but it's not much more fun.

Hopefully the ping indicator change helps make at least the pinging a lot less obnoxiously untouchable, but otherwise yes, subs are not very good material for this game. We're seeing them because WG is running out of other hulls since discrete ships are their content for the game. I wanted them to be implemented better, but it's doubtful we'll end up with much other than 'this is a less toxic version of "sub plays his game at you"'.

[ArIskandir]

1 hour ago, MBT808 said:

The quality of players has been on a downward spiral since the CV rework

An alternative reading is the environment got more complicated and difficult to navigate thus less players were able to succesfully operate in the new environment

1 hour ago, MBT808 said:

Subs fundamentally shouldn’t have been introduced into the game. As has been pointed out many times, WoWs is a team game. Subs fly in the face of this and are lone wolves. They have almost no team play capability unless spotting. Most sub captains won’t help contribute to the team’s victory. Subs represent single player game design in a multiplayer focused game. Which is why they don’t work and never will.

This is so wrong in so many levels...

For initial clarification, any ship of any class has a potential to be a valuable team player by fulfilling their intended role and being supportive of their team. Team play is first and foremost a player action regardless of the particular ship... some ships have greater potential for team play, some other have a more limited potential (at the bottom of the list I place Lighthuose farming Cruisers). 

In the particular case of Subs, they possess significant capabilities for team play, first and foremost the ability to enact "exclusion zones" for the operation of the enemy ships... through harrassment, intimidation and the threat of summary termination they are able negate zones of the map to enemy ships. This is an incredibly powerful tool to either spearhead an assault on enemy territory or stop an enemy push. Submarines are perfectly suited to be the first to advance and the last to retreat... they act like the Special Forces/Vanguard of the team, they spot for their team, they can dislodge entrenched enemies and are the perfect tool to break any stalemate, "opening" the field for their team. On top of that they can "assassinate" key enemy units to support team mates and even after being gutted they remain very effective ASW units themselves (after the initial cooldown), able to screen and protect allies from enemy Submarines. 

Yes, they are quite capable lone operators but that doesn't mean they can't integrate themselves on team tactics. They can be very effective team players.

[ArIskandir]

You know, WG is like the evil genie...

I wish to play a ship that it's not hindered by CVs... check

a ship able to break the stale meta and make plays by itself even if the team does not support you... check

a ship that allow me to play and enjoy the game even if my team is full of morons... check 

a ship with an easy learning curve, with low skill floor but high skill ceiling... check

a ship that can be simultaneously relaxing to play or an adrenaline filled heart pumping experience depending on how you play it... check

a ship able to thrive in the perennial BB overloaded meta of WoWS... check

 

Lo and behold! ... you get a Submarine.

[MnemonScarlet]

57 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

You know, WG is like the evil genie...

I wish to play a ship that it's not hindered by CVs... check

a ship able to break the stale meta and make plays by itself even if the team does not support you... check

a ship that allow me to play and enjoy the game even if my team is full of morons... check 

a ship with an easy learning curve, with low skill floor but high skill ceiling... check

a ship that can be simultaneously relaxing to play or an adrenaline filled heart pumping experience depending on how you play it... check

a ship able to thrive in the perennial BB overloaded meta of WoWS... check

 

Lo and behold! ... you get a Submarine.

The better solution would've been just 'fix the maps so camping/controlling a few islands isn't so powerful', but maps aren't sell-able content like discrete hulls are, sooooo...

We got subs lol.

[Wolfswetpaws]

5 hours ago, MnemonScarlet said:

Subs have definitely poisoned the meta.

Poor player psychology poisoned the meta.  

Submarines are simply another ship class. 
Every ship class can be sunk by every other ship class.
It's merely a question of how to go about doing so.

[Wolfswetpaws]

If I had a doubloon for every time I've seen "I need intelligence data" and "CV please spot" and "Submarine please spot" in battle-chat then I might be able to retire comfortably.

 

[Andrewbassg]

3 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Lo and behold! ... you get a Submarine.

Of course you meant suckmarine ....

[coolrunings_99]

naah..a dildo, even shorter than suckmarine but kind of more to a point😁

In serious cases of game analysis, could be dubbed as-dildo mains, in order to not forget the human being that chose it as his pass time😉

[Jakob Knight]

14 minutes ago, coolrunings_99 said:

naah..a dildo, even shorter than suckmarine but kind of more to a point😁

In serious cases of game analysis, could be dubbed as-dildo mains, in order to not forget the human being that chose it as his pass time😉

 

Aaaand that about wraps up our show for today and illustrates why submarine critics have such a high hill to climb to be taken seriously.

 

Goodnight folks!

 

 

[Sailor_Moon]

On 3/12/2024 at 3:47 PM, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Why push up when your rudder shift is like 20 seconds...you are just an unmaneuverable brick.

Yeah, that's why I ALWAYS use Steering gears mod on any battleship with a rudder shift longer than 15s-16s.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

20 minutes ago, Sailor_Moon said:

Yeah, that's why I ALWAYS use Steering gears mod on any battleship with a rudder shift longer than 15s-16s.

Me too.

[Pugilistic]

So, in the last patch, subs got a BUFFnerf, and this time they got a buffNERFbuff? 

 

[WES_HoundDog]

If shotgunning was not a problem and rare.   Why do they get a 15% damage increase to "compensate"?

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

34 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

If shotgunning was not a problem and rare.   Why do they get a 15% damage increase to "compensate"?

Never trust anything that WG says...its like listening to a politician...watch what they do.

[MBT808]

On 3/14/2024 at 2:09 PM, Sailor_Moon said:

Yeah, that's why I ALWAYS use Steering gears mod on any battleship with a rudder shift longer than 15s-16s.

I don’t think I’ve ever not mounted it. Thunderer with rudder mod getting a 8.3s rudder shift is crazy. Thx mouse.

Edited March 16 by MBT808

[Itwastuesday]

Testing out submarine buffs 

😩

[Andrewbassg]

On 3/14/2024 at 11:58 PM, Pugilistic said:

So, in the last patch, subs got a BUFFnerf, and this time they got a buffNERFbuff? 

 

Yes!! All the above.

Edited March 16 by Andrewbassg

[Snargfargle]

Here is an empirical test of distance versus damage using the Cachalot against a Friedrich der Grosse, no ping.

9.8 km	5318	5317	5317
7.7 km	5317	5316	5318
5.8 km	5317	5317	5317
3.8 km	5318	5317	5317
2.3 km	531	532	532
1.4 km	532	531	532
1.0 km	531	532	532

[Sailor_Moon]

11 hours ago, Itwastuesday said:

Testing out submarine buffs 

😩