desmo_2 Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 On 2/19/2024 at 3:16 PM, WES_HoundDog said: Welcome to rigged games. 5 overpens and 1 pen on the side of an 80 degree Petro at 17k with quickfuse ap shells. One shell on return fire hits me at or about improved auto bounce angle, Citadel... on 3 out of 4 salvos. Game is absurdly rigged. Rigged how? Against you, specifically? What nefarious purpose would rigging these games serve? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snargfargle Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 8 minutes ago, desmo_2 said: Rigged how? Against you, specifically? What nefarious purpose would rigging these games serve? Sometimes you are the bear and at other times you are the berries. In a game today I got two multi-citadel dev strikes on full-health cruisers, deleting them in one salvo each. In another game, two BBs that were well outside of my own BB's range took me out before I'd even moved from the spawn and I got to watch 19 minutes of a 20-minute match from the sidelines. The reason is that the RNG simulated dispersion of WOWS mimics this target I shot a couple of days ago. Sometimes you hit exactly where you are aiming but most of the time you only hit reasonably close. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 51 minutes ago, desmo_2 said: Rigged how? Against you, specifically? What nefarious purpose would rigging these games serve? Making more money for WG, of course. Welcome to capitalism and the gaming industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WES_HoundDog Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 1 hour ago, desmo_2 said: Rigged how? Against you, specifically? What nefarious purpose would rigging these games serve? Everyway possible. Yes. To make money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snargfargle Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: Making more money for WG, of course. Welcome to capitalism and the gaming industry. I see no evidence of any rigging in this game. I do see things that WG does to make money but that's just fine. They are a business after all and if they didn't make a profit then there would be no game for us to play. WOWS is a free-to-play, pay for convenience game. Their model is no different than the Corner Stop in town that charges $6 for a gallon of milk for those people who don't want to make the 30-mile round trip to the next town to pay only $4.50 for it. Edited February 21 by Snargfargle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WES_HoundDog Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 6 minutes ago, Snargfargle said: I see no evidence of any rigging in this game. I do see things that WG does to make money but that's just fine. They are a business after all and if they didn't make a profit then there would be no game for us to play. WOWS is a free-to-play, pay for convenience game. Their model is no different than the Corner Stop in town that charges $6 for a gallon of milk for those people who don't want to make the 30-mile round trip to the next town to pay only $4.50 for it. why are your stats hidden? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Snargfargle said: I see no evidence of any rigging in this game. I do see things that WG does to make money but that's just fine. They are a business after all and if they didn't make a profit then there would be no game for us to play. WOWS is a free-to-play, pay for convenience game. Their model is no different than the Corner Stop in town that charges $6 for a gallon of milk for those people who don't want to make the 30-mile round trip to the next town to pay only $4.50 for it. I see some RNG or MM rigging occasionally when I have to not play for a few days. I get better outcomes for the first match back. I also see better RNG in the first match in a ship I purchased with resources than I get in later matches. Both types are used to try to encourage continued play and to give a good feeling for a purchase. Typical casino stuff. Edited February 21 by Daniel_Allan_Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meatgrindr Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 50 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: Welcome to capitalism and the gaming industry. Well then thank goodness for capitalism. Without it, there would be no gaming industry. Or much else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snargfargle Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 12 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said: why are your stats hidden? Because I can and why should you care? I'm an average player if you really want to know but I think I've played the game long enough to tell if there are any onerous shenanigans going on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snargfargle Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: I see some RNG or MM rigging occasionally... used to try to encourage continued play and to give a good feeling for a purchase. Typical casino stuff. I think that this is just confirmation bias. It's called a gambler's run. The RNG is just that -- random. However, we tend to more notice the occasional runs, calling them good luck or bad luck. Edited February 21 by Snargfargle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 58 minutes ago, Snargfargle said: I think that this is just confirmation bias. It's called a gambler's run. The RNG is just that -- random. However, we tend to more notice the occasional runs, calling them good luck or bad luck. You can think that...my observation is that it's not random and its not occasional. If I take a few days break, the first game back will feature better than average RNG or MM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snargfargle Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Here is a random x-y scatter plot. Notice how we tend to more notice the clumps and voids; jowever, they are just as random as any other grouping. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 2 minutes ago, Snargfargle said: Here is a random x-y scatter plot. Notice how we tend to more notice the clumps and voids; jowever, they are just as random as any other grouping. Here is a definition of gaslighting. verb gerund or present participle: gaslighting manipulate (someone) using psychological methods into questioning their own sanity or powers of reasoning. I have shared my observations. I understand how randomness works, what I am observing is not random. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snargfargle Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 3 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: You can think that...my observation is that it's not random and its not occasional. If I take a few days break, the first game back will feature better than average RNG or MM. You would have to collect data to verify this and even so you would have to account for the fact that perhaps you are just rested and playing better after short break. As for matchmaking, I hear people complain about it all the time but I've found it to be random for variables like clan, radar ships, player win-rate, etc. that are outside the stated matchmaking parameters. I play tier VIII ships more than anything because it lends itself to quickly getting into a game. I find that about a third of my matches are tier VI-VIII, a third are tier VII-IX and a third are tier VIII-X. Ship types are matched as much as possible but if a cruiser has radar and the other identical cruiser on the other team is set up for smoke, well the matchmaker doesn't take this into account. The same thing does for torpedo spec'd DDs matched up against gunboat spec'd DDs, it's just the luck of the draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Just now, Snargfargle said: You would have to collect data to verify this and even so you would have to account for the fact that perhaps you are just rested and playing better after short break. Yes. You assume I haven't collected data on this. I have. You also assume that others have not observed the same behavior...they have. I've played certain ships long enough to tell beneficial RNG on aerial ordinance drops and shell dispersion groupings instead of just 'playing better' after rest. 3 minutes ago, Snargfargle said: I play tier VIII ships more than anything because it lends itself to quickly getting into a game. I find that about a third of my matches are tier VI-VIII, a third are tier VII-IX and a third are tier VIII-X. I have confirmed this with data as well. Ship tier context OVER A LARGE SAMPLE is not random, but fits the profile of expected bottom and top tiers based on statements from WG staff about it. 4 minutes ago, Snargfargle said: Ship types are matched as much as possible but if a cruiser has radar and the other identical cruiser on the other team is set up for smoke, well the matchmaker doesn't take this into account. The same thing does for torpedo spec'd DDs matched up against gunboat spec'd DDs, it's just the luck of the draw. This is also true, though its less luck and more just a rudimentary system. The vast majority of 'rigging' examples are in terms of weapon accuracy 'RNG' and damage output rolls. Some people have observed a tendency to not have a CV in game if you equipped AA flags or modules. I haven't taken data on this yet, but others have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrewbassg Posted February 21 Author Share Posted February 21 1 hour ago, Snargfargle said: I see no evidence of any rigging in this game. Rigging is too strong of a word . There is meddlingm but doesn't amuont to "rigging". Influencing is the best word. 1 hour ago, Snargfargle said: The RNG is just that -- random Wedgie's RNG is not true RNG, but % based RNG. This kind of RNG needs a "database" to properly function, otherwise the xtreme cases are more present. The 'database gets peridically resetted, thats why people who didn't played certain ships for a time tend to get better results upon playing them again. Also this ikind of RNG is tied to account. 2 hours ago, Snargfargle said: I see no evidence of any rigging in this game. I do see things that WG does to make money but that's just fine. They are a business after all and if they didn't make a profit then there would be no game for us to play. WOWS is a free-to-play, pay for convenience game. Their model is no different than the Corner Stop in town that charges $6 for a gallon of milk for those people who don't want to make the 30-mile round trip to the next town to pay only $4.50 for it. That's the correct approach. What they do, sometimes frustrates me, but mostly I just laughit off 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snargfargle Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 5 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: what I am observing is not random. You vs. Me Bismark: 27% hit ratio vs. 25% Friedrich der Grosse: 27% hit ratio vs. 30% Georgia: 36% hit ratio vs. 35% Why the discrepancy? One of us may get in closer, are better at aiming, shoot at at easier-to-hit ships, or just play the ship more and thus understand its idiosyncrasies better. However, I don't think that there is any "rigging" going on. If I collected data from a thousand players the differences might not even be significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 2 minutes ago, Snargfargle said: You vs. Me Bismark: 27% hit ratio vs. 25% Friedrich der Grosse: 27% hit ratio vs. 30% Georgia: 36% hit ratio vs. 35% Why the discrepancy? One of us may get in closer, are better at aiming, shoot at at easier-to-hit ships, or just play the ship more and thus understand its idiosyncrasies better. However, I don't think that there is any "rigging" going on. If I collected data from a thousand players the differences might not even be significant. What were our captain skills and modules? The data you share only counts hits...but does not count full pen vs over pen vs shatter rates...does not take into effect individual games rather than the average. Note Andrewbassg comment above...if things are percentage based...then you could get good RNG in a 'welcome back' game, but then have to pay for that later to restore the target results. After all, this is how the MM RNG works for top and bottom tier. It's random up until you start hitting thresholds which push the results away from the desired distribution of outcomes...at which point the MM is forced to place you into non-random tiers. Is it really such a stretch to think that ordinance firing RNG isn't something similar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 9 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said: That's the correct approach. What they do, sometimes frustrates me, but mostly I just laughit off 🙂 Indeed. WarGaming is a casino company. If you understand what that means and go in prepared to get what you want out of the game...even with WGs manipulations...then its still fun. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WES_HoundDog Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 1 hour ago, Snargfargle said: Because I can and why should you care? I'm an average player if you really want to know but I think I've played the game long enough to tell if there are any onerous shenanigans going on. Because there are many reasons why one would see no evidence of rigging. Some can't due with inexperience or incompetence. Other's it just have to do with brain capacity to observe abnormalites purposely concealed via rng, but clearly evident through the process of repetition and deductive reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snargfargle Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 This is the type of shell dispersion that you get in WOWS. I'm pretty sure that the shell splash data are saved in the replay files but I don't have the programming expertise to unpack them and find it. In order to test the hypothesis that players get better shell dispersions after a time away from the game you would need to test several plots like this against each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snargfargle Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Another reason why it might seem that you are getting a better shell dispersion after some time away from the game is that you actually are because the ship you are playing has had its shell dispersion buffed in a patch since you last played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaQuest Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) 4 hours ago, Pugilistic said: This is leading to shooting HE in Kurfurst 😆 Lol, I saw PQ's Vid earlier. Edited February 21 by SeaQuest 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 1 minute ago, Snargfargle said: Another reason why it might seem that you are getting a better shell dispersion after some time away from the game is that you actually are because the ship you are playing has had its shell dispersion buffed in a patch since you last played. Buffs aren't that frequent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrewbassg Posted February 21 Author Share Posted February 21 (edited) 11 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: Note Andrewbassg comment above...if things are percentage based...then you could get good RNG in a 'welcome back' game, but then have to pay for that later to restore the target results. Just noting that this is based on my personal experience and explanation, however which does explain numerous statistical oddities, which otherwise cannot be explained. For example once lve got 7 times in a row disadvantageous spawns in ops, back then when ops were in weeikly rotation. After the third i became curious and kept pushing the button to see wazz will happen 🙂 11 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: If you understand what that means and go in prepared to get what you want out of the game...even with WGs manipulations...then its still fun. Oh its all fun. 🙂 One way or another. Edited February 21 by Andrewbassg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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