GandalfTehGray Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 On 2/1/2024 at 8:06 PM, megjur said: No matter how well you play, you end up losing more often than winning. It seems like the matchmaker has far more say in the outcome of the game than you do as a player. Finishing #1 on your team, getting Krakens, Confederates, High Calibers...none of it matters in the end, it's still a loss. I'm having a hard time not uninstalling a game that I generally like, but that's become far to frustrating to continue. It seems like each night after I play I'm in a worse mood than when I started, I keep thinking "tonight will be different" and it's always the same. All your efforts amount to nothing. Ask yourself this... Do I have to be beating humans to enjoy World Of Warships? For me the answer is no and the most I get annoyed at this game most nights is when my opposing DD sails off to another cap for no reason or I get triple citadaled by the Shokaku AP dive bombers on Raptor Rescue. In port I get annoyed at yet another base xp mission to grind or battleship main battery hits. But almost all the time Wows is stress relief for me after work rather than added stress/anger. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clammboy Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 6 hours ago, OT2_2 said: WR matters a lot! Without a good WR one can't choose the clan one wishes to be member of. Not enough with that, sometimes one get's flamed and blamed in a ridiculous way for not having a superb W Not only that but so many people have MM monitors now and if your win rate is bad you wont get much help if you decide to push or are on the weak flank. In game people are not going to listen to you and I guess you cant blame them. So if your a solo player playing with a bad or below average win rate your kind of on your own. As @Snargfargle said when you have 12k games played and a 48% win rate like me it's a super hard and long grind to get to 50%. I am a much better player the last 2 years but my win rate really won't reflect that for a long while. I guess that's why I am seeing a lot of rerolls playing in the lower tiers working on there win rate. Maybe the higher win rate helps people take you more seriously in game I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouSatInGum Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 6 hours ago, OT2_2 said: And all those lies here on the forum about WR ... WR matters a lot! Without a good WR one can't choose the clan one wishes to be member of. Not enough with that, sometimes one get's flamed and blamed in a ridiculous way for not having a superb WR. If I would have known about the things I know today I would have never started with WoW. I will agree that there are many players that place too much emphasis on WR. Win rate is a decent measure of player skill in a general sense, however it's a composite number because the types of battles that combine to make up that number can have wildly different conditions. For example, solo vs. division, high tier vs. low tier, recent vs. long time ago, etc. etc. That said, for new applicants, many competitive clans only use WR as an initial snapshot and the actual history will mitigate WR that's below their usual "standard." Also, most clans will want to play with you first and how you play in the those games will absolutely supersede a poor historical WR. Finally, there are other intangibles that factor in besides historical stats... and I cannot overstate this.... Do you get along well with people? What's your overall attitude like? Do you want to learn and get better? Do you want to contribute to a clan or is just a way to get extra rewards/tag by your name/etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snargfargle Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 41 minutes ago, clammboy said: so many people have MM monitors now and if your win rate is bad you wont get much help Matchmaking monitors are why I block my stats. If someone is interested in my stats then I'll gladly tell them but I don't want someone either thinking that I'm going to carry or throw the match based on my stats. Since stats hardly change once you have a thousand or more battles played, overall stats don't really reflect how good someone is currently playing. Also, someone might be playing a ship that I they were terrible in and shelved for a long time but now can do much better in but its stats still imply that they are terrible in it. Edited February 4 by Snargfargle 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouSatInGum Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 On 2/2/2024 at 5:53 PM, torino2dc said: In 12v12 randoms there are generally ~35% of games that are unwinnable solo; there are also ~35% that are unloseable solo. In those ~70% of games, you're basically there to do as well as you can in whatever metric you care about [PR/fun/achievements], but the winning and losing was determined by others. The remaining ~30% are the matches that can go either way. That's where you -- your skill -- can make the difference between winning and losing. The fun part is that you very rarely know what type of game it will be ahead of time. All you can do is try your best every single match. ---- If the prospect of so many wins/losses being out of your control makes you unhappy, then I would suggest going for formats with smaller teams. Ranked 7v7 only has about ~15% unwinnable/unloseable rate; i.e. ~70% of outcomes are directly determined by your performance. For 6v6 ranked that number is closer to 80%. If we are talking about high tier 12v12 random... For solo play (and during prime time play) I'd put the percentages 35% unwinnable, 25% unlose-able, and the remaining 40% as a grey scale (shaped like a bellcurve) going from having to play great to win to you'll win as long as you don't make an idiotic mistake. The difference between the 35% and the 25% mostly comes from how divisions short circuit the matchmaker. Despite what WG says, the random MM is most certainly not random because the player is allowed to hand pick 1/4 of their own team before the MM does anything. And math of the matter says that you are more likely to playing against those divs versus the div being teammates. I believe that is also a contributing factor to feelings of frustration being shared on this thread. Supporting evidence of this effect is also evident in the WR of many of players in Typhoon level clans when you compare their solo and division play. In fact, for this post, I went to clan that I'm likely to see in CB, and semi-randomly looked at 4 of the members. For 3 of them they played 2x to 3x the number of division vs. solo games AND their WR was at least 10% higher. Basically they go from high 50's to low 70's/high 60. The one solo guy was 59/58 but in terms of carry potential I'd rate him at least as high as the others even though they were more like 62% - 65% overall WR. Don't have time right now, but I'd like to make a bell curve chart that displays what I just said in words above. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouSatInGum Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 21 minutes ago, Snargfargle said: Matchmaking monitors are why I block my stats. If someone is interested in my stats then I'll gladly tell them but I don't want someone either thinking that I'm going to carry or throw the match based on my stats. Since stats hardly change once you have a thousand or more battles played, overall stats don't really reflect how good someone is currently playing. Also, someone might be playing a ship that I they were terrible in and shelved for a long time but now can do much better in but its stats still imply that they are terrible in it. The thing is...is that you may still get judged. Most of the time, those with blocked stats have poor stats. on a slightly different note. Yes, sometimes I will used MMM to make in battle decisions. It's usually something like, I'm playing DD and I want to know if the DM right behind is likely to push up enough to give radar support or even just push the button for the red DD trying cap in his smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillhunter Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 4 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said: Well, WG/WOWs uses the word "team" in their description of the random battle mode. https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Game_Modes Well, of course they do. They have always been truth full about everything, right? Edited February 4 by Gillhunter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfswetpaws Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 minute ago, Gillhunter said: Well, of course they do. They have always been true full about everything, right? Sure, it may not be the "perfect" or "ideal" team in every match ... Quote The Shoveller: We're not your classic heroes. We're the other guys. Mystery Men 1999 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0132347/ ... but, they're still a team. 🙂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asym Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, YouSatInGum said: If we are talking about high tier 12v12 random... For solo play (and during prime time play) I'd put the percentages 35% unwinnable, 25% unlose-able, and the remaining 40% as a grey scale (shaped like a bellcurve) going from having to play great to win to you'll win as long as you don't make an idiotic mistake. The difference between the 35% and the 25% mostly comes from how divisions short circuit the matchmaker. Despite what WG says, the random MM is most certainly not random because the player is allowed to hand pick 1/4 of their own team before the MM does anything. And math of the matter says that you are more likely to playing against those divs versus the div being teammates. I believe that is also a contributing factor to feelings of frustration being shared on this thread. Supporting evidence of this effect is also evident in the WR of many of players in Typhoon level clans when you compare their solo and division play. In fact, for this post, I went to clan that I'm likely to see in CB, and semi-randomly looked at 4 of the members. For 3 of them they played 2x to 3x the number of division vs. solo games AND their WR was at least 10% higher. Basically they go from high 50's to low 70's/high 60. The one solo guy was 59/58 but in terms of carry potential I'd rate him at least as high as the others even though they were more like 62% - 65% overall WR. Don't have time right now, but I'd like to make a bell curve chart that displays what I just said in words above. Oh-Kay and I appreciate the data.... Now, would you please run a 300 match survey and let us know what that data looks like. Why? Because, I've been tempted to do exactly that. I'd be about 65% un-winable with most of them being absolute stomps; 30% mostly being dead and maybe winable; and, 5% wins even if I am dead. I wonder what the "real numbers" are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillhunter Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 42 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said: Sure, it may not be the "perfect" or "ideal" team in every match ... Mystery Men 1999 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0132347/ ... but, they're still a team. 🙂 Neither this game or a movie is "real world", but the players in this game are real. That movie has a script. Players don't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Final8ty Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 On 2/2/2024 at 2:06 AM, megjur said: No matter how well you play, you end up losing more often than winning. It seems like the matchmaker has far more say in the outcome of the game than you do as a player. Finishing #1 on your team, getting Krakens, Confederates, High Calibers...none of it matters in the end, it's still a loss. I'm having a hard time not uninstalling a game that I generally like, but that's become far to frustrating to continue. It seems like each night after I play I'm in a worse mood than when I started, I keep thinking "tonight will be different" and it's always the same. All your efforts amount to nothing. I have stopped caring for the most part, you just have to accept that most players will never be good. I find it far less frustrating. I'm sure that's how Stephen Hawking and Albert Einstein put up with the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor_Moon Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 On 2/1/2024 at 9:47 PM, Wolfswetpaws said: People who care about their win-rate. People who don't give a <bleep> about their win-rate. Tbh, I care about winrate, sure, but I actually care more about my PERSONAL PERFORMANCE in a given match. If *I* did my job? If I'm doing reasonable damage? If I'm contesting and holding the flanks? If I'm capping? Then I'm happy with that, regardless of outcome, because I know I did my best. 🙂 And sometimes, you just can't carry for the win: I mean, I can't be mad at these results. It hurts not winning these, but ehh, that's WoWs Randoms life. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor_Moon Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 2 hours ago, Gillhunter said: Well, of course they do. They have always been truth full about everything, right? Wish I could ping your post with from WoWs Discord 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfswetpaws Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 6 minutes ago, Sailor_Moon said: Tbh, I care about winrate, sure, but I actually care more about my PERSONAL PERFORMANCE in a given match. If *I* did my job? If I'm doing reasonable damage? If I'm contesting and holding the flanks? If I'm capping? Then I'm happy with that, regardless of outcome, because I know I did my best. 🙂 👍 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordholland4293 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 On 2/1/2024 at 6:06 PM, megjur said: No matter how well you play, you end up losing more often than winning. It seems like the matchmaker has far more say in the outcome of the game than you do as a player. Finishing #1 on your team, getting Krakens, Confederates, High Calibers...none of it matters in the end, it's still a loss. I'm having a hard time not uninstalling a game that I generally like, but that's become far to frustrating to continue. It seems like each night after I play I'm in a worse mood than when I started, I keep thinking "tonight will be different" and it's always the same. All your efforts amount to nothing. sounds like you have reached the point of should I uninstall then the answer would yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlooky Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Coming to WoWs from games with a competitive ladder helped me avoid this kind of "nothing I do matters" mindset. As it was mentioned here already, in almost every online PvP game, there's a handful of games you will always lose, a few you will always win, and the rest being games where you have an impact. Losing with an excellent performance after two games is absolutely meaningless. Another point that annoys me is when people claim MM is rigged because a handful of skilled players on the other team. Fringe examples of bad RNG is not a compelling argument, run a matchmaking monitor and the vast majority of games are relatively balanced. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakeshuffle Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 On 2/1/2024 at 9:24 PM, Frostbow said: It is mainly because there are far more below average players than there are good. Did someone say my name?! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMC2145 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 When you play any video game that puts you on a team with other players and you expect them to play well, remember this. George Carlin — 'Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.' 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snargfargle Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 56 minutes ago, USMC2145 said: 'Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.' That's assuming player ability follows a normal distribution, which it doesn't. There are definitely more WOWS players with limited ability to contribute to a win than there are good WOWS players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Type_93 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 2 hours ago, USMC2145 said: When you play any video game that puts you on a team with other players and you expect them to play well, remember this. George Carlin — 'Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.' I wouldn’t call players who don’t do well stupid. Most, I think, just enjoy playing shooty pixel boats and don’t care about being good. Nothing wrong with that. All it does is to make it hard for players like me who want to play effectively and have decent stats. Still a persons solo WR is a good metric to judge one’s ability to play well. Experience per battle would be a much better stat, buts that’s skewed with premium time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMC2145 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Type_93 said: I wouldn’t call players who don’t do well stupid. Most, I think, just enjoy playing shooty pixel boats and don’t care about being good. Nothing wrong with that. All it does is to make it hard for players like me who want to play effectively and have decent stats. Still a persons solo WR is a good metric to judge one’s ability to play well. Experience per battle would be a much better stat, buts that’s skewed with premium time. The point I was trying to make.... do not expect to much from your teams. Edited February 4 by USMC2145 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumblegoose Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 (edited) On 2/4/2024 at 8:07 PM, OT2_2 said: This game will disappear, come to an end for all the inconvenience players are having in the P v P modes and particually in those so called "Randoms". It's more than frustrating to get punished for good performance and commitment. One loses not only a game or multiple in a row due to bad MM, low quality "team mates", RNG and whatsoever. No, one loses massively on credits, XP etc. too, and the ominous WR is going down like plunging shells. Sometimes it feels like if there are several sadists on WG's side, who think up such rubbish. And, I'm not satisfied with constant and lying repetitions from certain persons that "ALL together" would be suffering from this. Personally, I'm very keen on competition, but when a company is destroying or hampering my chances on working me up the hill in a reasonable perspective (time frame) I get massively p#ssed. And all those lies here on the forum about WR ... WR matters a lot! Without a good WR one can't choose the clan one wishes to be member of. Not enough with that, sometimes one get's flamed and blamed in a ridiculous way for not having a superb WR. If I would have known about the things I know today I would have never started with WoW. Unfortunately, too much time and money have been invested ... P.S. I hardly enjoy the game anymore, and I'm not alone with this. I do feel for you. Just a thought in a different direction altogether. Some players find MM reasonably balanced - a sprinkling of good and not so good teammates over many games. Other players find MM oppressive, with long strings of randoms in which their teams are demonstrably weaker by WR or whatever other parameters of strength one chooses. To what extent does this reflect a problem or bias within matchmaking itself and to what extent is it self-generated subconsciously? That is, just as some people attract unsupportive friends, weak jobs, unsupportive partners and unpleasant bosses, so one can also unknowingly attract unsupportive matchmaking. There can be a kind of duality in which the conscious aspect of the person really wants good teammates amd wants to win, while subconsciously there is a strong self-sabotage pattern operating in the opposite direction. Edited February 6 by Bumblegoose 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kynami Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Oh there are absolutely days where I'll play three to four matches and get absolute dumpster fires for teammates. The games where with teammates like these who needs enemies?! And then just go find something else to do because once you feel that way you are very likely going to be tilted which will snowball into just having problems in matches that would have been otherwise winnable. My overall win rate tends to be decent, but nothing spectacular. I can carry potatoes on occasion, I have been carried on occasion. But you most certainly cannot win them all. And the games where you can waltz on out of a match with a Solo Warrior from a 1v5 are to be cherished for the unicorns they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meatgrindr Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Sometimes it might just be a matter of perspective. I got so soured on randoms that I hardly play them anymore. Yet, my (sort of) daughter in law visits and likes to play ships with me, in randoms of course (I love her to death, but...), hey, we went 3 for 4 on wins. 1 game she out XP'd me... (um what the actual....?). But that's how it goes. I went on and played some more randoms, went 8 for 10 wins. A few weeks ago we div'd, and I krackened, in a win, topped the board of both teams...in Omono, of all ships. A glass half empty, is still half full. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouSatInGum Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 On 2/4/2024 at 12:10 PM, Asym said: Oh-Kay and I appreciate the data.... Now, would you please run a 300 match survey and let us know what that data looks like. Why? Because, I've been tempted to do exactly that. I'd be about 65% un-winable with most of them being absolute stomps; 30% mostly being dead and maybe winable; and, 5% wins even if I am dead. I wonder what the "real numbers" are? I did do that about 2 years ago. 312 sample size I believe it was. Mostly T8 but some Tier 7-10 mixed in. My criteria wasn't defined quite like we are talking about though. Mainly what I was looking for was at what differential must the team average WR be before you can confidently predict the winner at the start. Once I made a determination of that level I did, however, check to see what percentage of games where that kind of game where the outcome is mostly determined. I seem to recall that once a difference of 3% what exceeded... you could pick a winner with 90% confidence. 4% went above 95%.... especially at higher tiers. Lower tier games where more unpredictable since the player win rates has less reliable underlying numbers (players had less games). Around a quarter of games where of that 3% variety but some things like time of day and tier could affect it. I wish I had the whole data set to share but a lot of it was hand written because I didn't have a way at the time to automatically pull numbers from the MMM (or at least I don't have the programming skill to do it). I'd write it down and put it into sheet later. Right after I did my thing....Merc85 did a similar thing except he was looking at the effect of "potatoes" on your team. He was trying to ID if too many potatoes on one side made things predictable like my numbers. Strangely enough he came to a different conclusion, however I still feel if I had his data set, I could find a smoking gun. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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