Ensign Cthulhu Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 Because this keeps on coming up. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thornzero Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 I think it is a currency proposition. I agree with the sentiment that time is not a currency but time is typically traded for currency. Sometimes a little, sometimes alot. I am F2P for several reasons. For the time being I do not even have a bank account and live in the style of a minimalist. This could change but I am not sure when. If it does, I may remain F2P for other reasons. I've ground the dockyard thus far because I am interested in the rewards, not the ship. This is the second dockyard I will nearly complete but the other advantage is the grind leads to experience. Experience leads to becoming a better player. So the rewards are not the sole motivation. This next dockyard last mission set will actually be a bit more difficult, for me anyways. The motivation behind finishing is 2 mega santa crates. I might figure out how to finish, or I might let it go. Notwithstanding, the rewards are pretty much above average in this game; especially if you get after it [put the time in]. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral_Karasu Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 What is the transactional value, I think. If it is zero, then it is free. I don't see 'free' as being the same as 'gift'. Doubloons are somewhat complicated in this regard, because not all the doubloons have cost actual money. It is possible, then, also to make use of those earned/gifted doubloons towards what is a free acquisition. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 An opinion poll won't change the reality of the definition of value. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thornzero Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 The part of the definition of value that applies to this poll is subjective at best. In fact, so are the other parts of the definition unrelated to currency. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfswetpaws Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 5 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: An opinion poll won't change the reality of the definition of value. "... The tea does not judge itself. ..." * * In the subtitled translation, which I saw in the movie theater when the movie Fearless was first released, the phrase was "... The tea does not care." There have been a handful of variations of translations for this movie scene. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for the "free" question. I'm reminded of people who hand-load their own ammunition for firearms as a hobby. They buy the components (gunpowder, brass cases, projectiles and primers) and the tools to put them all together properly. Then they sometimes claim, "I made my own ammunition cheaper than it cost to purchase factory manufactured ammuntion from a retail store". But, I ask, in your methods of tabulating cost, did you factor-in the cost of your time? How much are you paid at your "day job" per hour? And how much time did you spend on your hobby? Personally, I read about handloading, but haven't pursued it as a hobby. Factory ammo was cheaper for me to purchase, once I'd factored in my time. The relevant point here, I feel, is that we're playing a game as a hobby. Unless one is a paid play-tester, then they're not getting paid to play World of Warships, and thus it a hobby or recreational pursuit. And, the other day in another topic, @Ensign Cthulhu wrote the phrase which gave me quite a laugh, "You cannot buy milk from the store on the basis of how many hours you spent mowing your lawn. " https://www.devstrike.net/topic/2621-honestly-not-sure-why-the-independence-exists/?do=findComment&comment=31978 At the very least one would have to mow the store's lawn, in a pre-agreed-upon exchange, eh? 🙂 But that's not happening, is it? As for our WOWs hobby, we acquire a computer and an internet connection and download the game. Thus we purchase or are gifted the "components and tools" needed to pursue our hobby of playing the game. Our time is not being paid for (unless we are a paid play-tester). And the game can be played without paying WG/WOWs for access, i.e. "free to play" player status. So in-game items, goodies, rewards and etc. which are gained as a result of our playing the game do not all require making a cash payment to WG/WOWs. Some items are behind a pay-wall, but many are not. I reckon that items which did not require a cash payment to directly purchase or gain access to the in-game method of reward-for-play are, thusly, "free". We play this game for the fun of it, and visit this forum for the fun of it. Opinions may vary. That's part of the fun, too. 🙂 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral_Karasu Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 Well, I can understand there's more than one way of looking at this. One division is between real life and game economy. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 7 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said: Opinions may vary. That's part of the fun, too. 🙂 Exactly...because valuation of time and how we view and act on games is entirely up to the player and is not uniform across the customer base. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfswetpaws Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 53 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said: What is the transactional value, I think. If it is zero, then it is free. I don't see 'free' as being the same as 'gift'. Doubloons are somewhat complicated in this regard, because not all the doubloons have cost actual money. It is possible, then, also to make use of those earned/gifted doubloons towards what is a free acquisition. The doubloons provided via the daily log-in rewards can be accumulated over the course of time. They have some use in-game. They have a "cash value" for the sake of comparision, because there is a published cash price to purchase doubloons, in the armory or the premium shop. That said, the daily log-in might also be considered an incentive system put in place by WG/WOWs to encourage the return of a player, including a free-to-play status player. And that free-to-play status player has value to WG/WOWs for at least two reasons. 1. If they play a game, then they provide a human player for the team rosters in whatever game mode is involved (instead of their place on a team roster being occupied by a 'Bot). 2. They are counted towards the "total number of players who are playing our game" statistics that WG/WOWs can use to claim WOWs is a popular game. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HogHammer Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 There are really two definitions of "free" in gaming. One is from a game developer's perspective, and the other is from a player's perspective (which can be broken down even further based on individual values/worth). Free to play, by game developer standards, means the content is downloadable and playable without needing a subscription or having to buy it upfront. PERIOD! For players, the viewpoint varies greatly from what I've seen here in previous discussions or the old forum. Just look at how members here value their "time" playing the game. Some place a monetary value on their time, while others don't. How you value your time is entirely on you. If you actually spend money on the game, that's on you. No one is holding a gun to your head and say BUY! No one is forcing me to play. The time spent, regardless of how I value it, is totally on me. I can enjoy playing WoWs or find something else to spend my time on. I like the time I spend playing WoWs. 7 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral_Karasu Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 4 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said: The doubloons provided via the daily log-in rewards can be accumulated over the course of time. They have some use in-game. They have a "cash value" for the sake of comparision, because there is a published cash price to purchase doubloons, in the armory or the premium shop. That said, the daily log-in might also be considered an incentive system put in place by WG/WOWs to encourage the return of a player, including a free-to-play status player. And that free-to-play status player has value to WG/WOWs for at least two reasons. 1. If they play a game, then they provide a human player for the team rosters in whatever game mode is involved (instead of their place on a team roster being occupied by a 'Bot). 2. They are counted towards the "total number of players who are playing our game" statistics that WG/WOWs can use to claim WOWs is a popular game. Add to that what @Daniel_Allan_Clark and @thornzero said about things being subjective, and it starts to get tricky to define what's free and what's not, because what you are saying here also represents transactional value. Maybe I best add to what I was saying earlier, that if no money is involved, it is objectively free, and if time and/or resources are needed, it is subjectively free. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 1 minute ago, Admiral_Karasu said: Maybe I best add to what I was saying earlier, that if no money is involved, it is objectively free, and if time and/or resources are needed, it is subjectively free. That's a nice summation. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfswetpaws Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 10 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: Exactly...because valuation of time and how we view and act on games is entirely up to the player and is not uniform across the customer base. Heh. Yeah, even though I don't agree with you on his particular topic/issue, I am enjoying the persistence with which you adhere to your point of view. 🙂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfswetpaws Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 6 minutes ago, HogHammer said: There are really two definitions of "free" in gaming. One is from a game developer's perspective, and the other is from a player's perspective (which can be broken down even further based on individual values/worth). Free to play, by game developer standards, means the content is downloadable and playable without needing a subscription or having to buy it upfront. PERIOD! For players, the viewpoint varies greatly from what I've seen here in previous discussions or the old forum. Just look at how members here value their "time" playing the game. Some place a monetary value on their time, while others don't. How you value your time is entirely on you. If you actually spend money on the game, that's on you. No one is holding a gun to your head and say BUY! No one is forcing me to play. The time spent, regardless of how I value it, is totally on me. I can enjoy playing WoWs or find something else to spend my time on. I like the time I spend playing WoWs. 4 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said: Add to that what @Daniel_Allan_Clark and @thornzero said about things being subjective, and it starts to get tricky to define what's free and what's not, because what you are saying here also represents transactional value. Maybe I best add to what I was saying earlier, that if no money is involved, it is objectively free, and if time and/or resources are needed, it is subjectively free. Yep. @HogHammer nailed it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf_Ace Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 you know whats funny whenever I see title Free to play I know its not free you will have to buy premium time or premium vehicles in order to play the game. whenever I see exact price for the game I know thats probably it, you pay you play. Ofc there are expansions but thats optional, wont ruin your current gameplay. When I bought ages ago Company of heroes that was it, I still play it and after I bought it I didnt spent any more money in it. But here we have WoWs FREE to play game where every week there is something to buy that almost forces you to buy or you will miss out. Like rare ships and etc.. So Free for me is a word for Pay to play 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArIskandir Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 I dare say, the moment you can generate a reliable steady income of doubloons (aka Ranked), a lot of doubloon locked content becomes "free". My strict definition for "free" is "no money out of my pocket", if there's a way to aquire an item without spending money, no matter whatever contortions are required, then the item can be aquired for free. As for those thinking "time" is a form of currency, I think they have a translocated perception of what a game and entertainment is... the point of games and most forms of entertainment is to spend time doing something you enjoy, in fact in many cases you pay money for that privilege. If you value your time more than the entertainment you get out of the activity, then by all means please allocate your time to something you consider as valuable. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArIskandir Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 41 minutes ago, Wulf_Ace said: But here we have WoWs FREE to play game where every week there is something to buy that almost forces you to buy or you will miss out. The game forces you to buy nothing, it's just people not having self-control over their compulsions. Does the game prey on them? yes, but that's called free market economy. As the saying goes... "a fool and his money are soon parted". There's a version of that on every language I know... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asym Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 55 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said: Yep. @HogHammer nailed it. Perspective comes into play. Some games simply "don't sell anything" and are, truly, F2P. If you come from games like that, your perspective of F2P will clash with games like WOWS........where, the shell of the game is F2P; but, the game itself isn't self supporting and is a P2A (pay-2-advance) that is for convenience for players whom are time restricted. I realized that at the PR event. And, I am not a F2P player anymore.... and... 1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said: As for the "free" question. I'm reminded of people who hand-load their own ammunition for firearms as a hobby. They buy the components (gunpowder, brass cases, projectiles and primers) and the tools to put them all together properly. Then they sometimes claim, "I made my own ammunition cheaper than it cost to purchase factory manufactured ammunition from a retail store". But, I ask, in your methods of tabulating cost, did you factor-in the cost of your time? How much are you paid at your "day job" per hour? And how much time did you spend on your hobby? Personally, I read about handloading, but haven't pursued it as a hobby. Factory ammo was cheaper for me to purchase, once I'd factored in my time. No. My time investment isn't relevant. Think of reloading as an investment that enhances the chances of winning (or, one shot harvesting). And, winning = rewards (reputation, nothing wounded and real money...) All of the ammunition I shoot, is an "optimized product, unique to my specific weapon" that increased the accuracy of said weapon. An example: a while ago, I wanted a 300 Win mag for hunting Elk and other critters at 600-700 yards. A vet friend of mine wanted a 300 WM and we approached a custom gun manufacturer and it was cheaper to have two made together with exactly the same components... I "had the time" to test ^^^^ my loads first. It took several weeks. I then gave my vet buddy, a bunch of the test loads to see what his rifle did with them. Results were not the same. I ended up with a different load for his rifle - even using the exact components in our rifles... Yet, his rifle, to this day, operates with slightly heavier loads with the same bullets.... This is the way ! "every shot is unique" because of the variations involved.... Commercial ammo is made to an average rifle and because it is, you get average results... That not to say commercial ammunition lack "quality"......it's just saying that it is not "optimized to your rifle or the needs of accuracy at distances..." How much did you spend? Oh my.... Shooting competitively isn't a game. There's no caparison. There are people, right now, whom get paid to compete all over the world... I did for many years. Does anyone playing this game do that? Apples and Oranges. Real life is always "something else...." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utt_Bugglier Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said: As for the "free" question. I'm reminded of people who hand-load their own ammunition for firearms as a hobby. They buy the components (gunpowder, brass cases, projectiles and primers) and the tools to put them all together properly. Then they sometimes claim, "I made my own ammunition cheaper than it cost to purchase factory manufactured ammuntion from a retail store". But, I ask, in your methods of tabulating cost, did you factor-in the cost of your time? How much are you paid at your "day job" per hour? And how much time did you spend on your hobby? Personally, I read about handloading, but haven't pursued it as a hobby. Factory ammo was cheaper for me to purchase, once I'd factored in my time. Assigning a dollar value to your time is valid only if: (1) The means to exchange your time for that dollar value is available to you. If your “day job” isn't offering you those hours (e.g. a salaried position or overtime not available), then your additional time doesn’t have that value. It only has the value of other things you could alternately pursue (Uber/Door Dash, flip burgers, private consulting, mowing lawns, etc.) In the case if hand-loading, opportunity cost with respect to the hobby might not come into play: you might have the time to shoot and WANT to shoot, in the winter, but lack of daylight, unfavorable weather & risk of finish to fine/collectible firearms, might prevent shooting, but you can use those down times to load up, when shooting is not possible. (2) Past practice of actually doing one or more from among the possible compensated activities. If one COULD mow lawns, consult for a fee, uber drive, flip burgers, work paid overtime, etc., but never DOES so, then the dollar value argument of that person’s time is specious. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chysagon Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snargfargle Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 2 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: An opinion poll won't change the reality of the definition of value. Robert Pirsig wrote a good book on the subject of value. It's called Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Once, he was helping his friend, who owned an expensive BMW motorcycle, fix its loose handlebars. He took one of the empty beer cans that were lying around the shop, cut a couple of shims from it, and made a perfectly good and permanent repair to the motorcycle. However, his friend went out the next day and bought an expensive BMW-branded shim set to replace the beer can shims because the BMW shims were "better" as they cost money, were "official," and weren't cut from a free piece of trash. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcus_Aesopi Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 Can you play competitively using only generated in-game resources? No. Flags aren't free, nor do they accumulate fast enough to use at all times and levels. One can pretend they aren't required, but that's just poor excuse making. Flags are overpowered! 🙂 Is the regular (non premium) reward sufficient to access and progress in all areas of the game? No. A new "free" player will have to play additional low-mid tier games in order to "pay" for higher tiers in game... you can't progress through TT sequentially and directly without pausing to generate in-game resources via other means many of which are "free". Does WG force you to open your wallet? No. Like most things with WG, it's murky at best when seeking clarity. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a252 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 When I see free in wows, I would expect there will be a grind, but there will not be any other requirement apart from grind. This is the reason I am not happy with "free" event relatively recent where WG's definition of free is dub free (which still requires ingame currency e.g. coal, steel etc). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArIskandir Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 9 minutes ago, Arcus_Aesopi said: Can you play competitively using only generated in-game resources? Yes. I played at a fairly competitive level using only in-game resources. I did Dockyards, Battle Pass, CBs, etc as a F2P. Depending on the time invested and skill, it can take you somewhere between 1-2 years as a F2P to amass enough resources and knowledge to be competitive. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snargfargle Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 You have to play the game a considerable amount to get many of the event items. I remember the long grind to get the Arp Takao, which was my first tier-VIII ship. However, you need to ask yourself how much you really like playing the game if you don't want to play it enough to get event items for free? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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