Honestly not sure why the Independence exists

[Ensign Cthulhu]

On 1/21/2024 at 9:35 PM, Andrewbassg said:

That's free. Anything else is based on a subjective interpretation of spent item value. 

Not in a game where progression beyond a zero-point commander in a Tier 1 ship is explicitly dependent on grinding. This is a grind game. You want to play anything beyond the kiddy wading pool boats, you have to put in the hard yards. Calling gameplay not-free in this context is sophistry at best, dishonesty at worst.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

18 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Calling gameplay not-free in this context is sophistry at best, dishonesty at worst.

Only if that gameplay is valued by the player.

If the gameplay is seen as work, then it's not sophistry or dishonesty to say that grind is the cost or price of the reward.

Heck, even if the gameplay is fun, it still is a cost in terms of time spent without the reward.

Delayed gratification is often assigned a cost in terms of interest in banking terms.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

Again, Daniel - sophistry.  Your definition of what isn't free fails the reasonable-person test every time. 

As I'm sure I said before, I'm happy to talk about whether this or that reward is worth the grind all day long, but time and effort are not freely transferable legal tender in and of themselves. You cannot buy milk from the store on the basis of how many hours you spent mowing your lawn. 

10 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

If the gameplay is seen as work, then it's not sophistry or dishonesty to say that grind is the cost or price of the reward.

That's why I always choose my ships and captains carefully. I get the end reward, and I get my additional pound of flesh on the side by forcing the grind to serve my agenda. But the question of whether legal tender does or does not change hands remains, and in the case of the Somme, Pozharsky and Scharnhorst 43, it did not.

I'm the sort of person who walks away happy from any mission that gives him a premium ship for no exchange of legal tender. You're the sort of person who would invoice God for the calories you were obliged to expend in order to breathe. 😜

[ArIskandir]

So I was disregarding this whole conversation as I'm not playing anymore and certainly a reefer smoking CV line ain't changing that... 

Then I read "Improved Fighters"... Hmmm 🤔

Edited January 23 by ArIskandir

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

44 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Then I read "Improved Fighters"... Hmmm 🤔

Yep, that to me is the REAL draw of the line...

Fighters that lock on more quickly than the standard fighter.

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/484?_gl=1*1u99s5a*_gcl_au*MTUxNDM0MzkyNi4xNzA2MDMyNTU5*_ga*MTMxOTYzNTcxOC4xNzA2MDMyNTU5*_ga_BWRKLL4HR5*MTcwNjAzMjU1OS4xLjAuMTcwNjAzMjU1OS42MC4wLjA.

Edited January 23 by Daniel_Allan_Clark

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 hour ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Again, Daniel - sophistry.  Your definition of what isn't free fails the reasonable-person test every time. 

As I'm sure I said before, I'm happy to talk about whether this or that reward is worth the grind all day long, but time and effort are not freely transferable legal tender in and of themselves. You cannot buy milk from the store on the basis of how many hours you spent mowing your lawn. 

That's why I always choose my ships and captains carefully. I get the end reward, and I get my additional pound of flesh on the side by forcing the grind to serve my agenda. But the question of whether legal tender does or does not change hands remains, and in the case of the Somme, Pozharsky and Scharnhorst 43, it did not.

I'm the sort of person who walks away happy from any mission that gives him a premium ship for no exchange of legal tender. You're the sort of person who would invoice God for the calories you were obliged to expend in order to breathe. 😜

I think you and I are actually closer in terms of how we look at the game than you want to admit.

I'm basically looking at value a bit more holistically than your definition.

The reality with this game is that valuation is very much defined by the PLAYER, and not by WarGaming. WarGaming sets the PRICE...but since there is no market, price does not equal value. This is true for prices set in legal tender, prices set in in-game resources, and prices set in required grind time / effort.

Each player is going to look at those prices and assess if the reward is worth that legal tender or in-game resources, or playtime. Some will say the price is less than the rewards value...some will disagree. Both sides are right...what matters is the PLAYER valuation of the reward vs the valuation of the PLAYER with respect to the resources required to get the reward.

My point is mostly that we can't speak for other players valuation. If ours is different than their valuation assessment, that does not invalidate their own assessment.

So we can't tell people that their value assessments are wrong...we can only share our own value assessments and then caveat as you do that it depends on the other players context and desires.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

8 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I think you and I are actually closer in terms of how we look at the game than you want to admit.

I'm basically looking at value a bit more holistically than your definition.

Oh, overall I think our opinion on the value of a grind/event TAKEN AS A WHOLE is pretty much in-sync.

Where we differ is on an important definition that comes down to this: "Do I open my wallet for Weegee?" For dockyard events (under the current system) and for progressive bundles, it's a binary decision: not opening the wallet denies you a dockyard/bundle ship absolutely*. For some other events, the ship can be had without opening the wallet at all, which is a good thing for those players for whom opening the wallet for Weegee is not an option, even if they wanted to. And this is the pivot around which most people argue the question of "Free versus not free". 

 

 

* Assuming a starting position of zero doubloons won in-game, from Santa crates, supercontainers, Ranked battles, streamer prizes and the like, an unlikely one over the long term, given that WG hands out at least a couple hundred doubloons every patch in login rewards, PTS bonuses for minimal play and no-cost Armory bundles. It won't pay for dockyards, but a couple thousand doubloons squirrelled away can net you some nice ships if you happen to draw the lucky short straw and they are first in the bundle sequence.

[Andrewbassg]

14 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

sophistry

 

14 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Again, Daniel - sophistry

Nah...facts never can be called "sophistry" Is the Earth a geoid? Yes, right? 🙂 Calling  the Earth a geoid is not sophistry. As a definition is accurate, complete and  not at least, factual.

And...

 

14 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

...fails the reasonable-person test every time.

...no. Coz being a reasonable person is a subjective interpretation and also,  in itself, is subjective, conditional, therefore  variable. Facts are not subjects to any of those. Facts are binary.

But  one can make a personal decision, for himself, based on his personal, subjective preferences. And that's the beauty in it🙂 

And we go back to spent item value. For example, I have the dubloons  (acrued by playing the game) to push the button on the 'battle pass. And also Yorkie was the first item. However, I'm not interested by Cv's, let alone Yorkie. To me has exactly zero value to have her in my port. 

 

14 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Not in a game where progression beyond a zero-point commander in a Tier 1 ship is explicitly dependent on grinding. This is a grind game. You want to play anything beyond the kiddy wading pool boats, you have to put in the hard yards. Calling gameplay not-free

You are conjourning  free to play and free to progress with an item being free or not.  I never said that the game is not  F2P, also  never said that progress is not free. One can both play the game and progress in the game  for free.

But I reiterate, factually, free is an item,  which is unconditionally given or gifted to..... "you". That's free. Anything else is.... not.

One item could be hard to get, can be easy to get but if necessitates anything to be spent ......is not free.

Edited January 24 by Andrewbassg

[Andrewbassg]

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I think you and I are actually closer in terms of how we look at the game than you want to admit.

I'm basically looking at value a bit more holistically than your definition.

The reality with this game is that valuation is very much defined by the PLAYER, and not by WarGaming. WarGaming sets the PRICE...but since there is no market, price does not equal value. This is true for prices set in legal tender, prices set in in-game resources, and prices set in required grind time / effort.

Each player is going to look at those prices and assess if the reward is worth that legal tender or in-game resources, or playtime. Some will say the price is less than the rewards value...some will disagree. Both sides are right...what matters is the PLAYER valuation of the reward vs the valuation of the PLAYER with respect to the resources required to get the reward.

My point is mostly that we can't speak for other players valuation. If ours is different than their valuation assessment, that does not invalidate their own assessment.

So we can't tell people that their value assessments are wrong...we can only share our own value assessments and then caveat as you do that it depends on the other players context and desires.

This.

[UnderTheRadarAgain]

I only played Independence once so far, but what I did find is the tactical bombers hit more bombs when attacking from the side.

[Darlith]

On 1/23/2024 at 10:41 AM, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

You do have better fighters, marginally...

The gimmick with Independence seems to be that you can not be functionally deplaned...ever.

In terms of weaponry, yes...damage output is BAD. I'm still trying to get the hang of target selection for maximum game impact.

With the reticle for her level bombers, approach enemy ships from the SIDE for best results. Its not actually a circle, but an elipse that benefits from attacking the broadside of a ship.

It can really hurt light cruisers and bigger DDs.

Thanks for the advice on the side approach it helped. I figured out today my issue, with the shape of the reticle and how far ahead it was my brain kept viewing it as a projection of circle as an ellipse. Not sure why my brain got locked into that thought given none of the reticles works that way. But there you go, a real duh moment for me.

[sonoasailor]

So picked up the Independence today, and then went to put the Camo (stage 12) and Captain (stage 14) that I supposedly received through completing the stages in the Pass, but they were not there.  Any idea as to when they are supposed to added to one's account - didnt find anything in the blurb on the current 13.0 update....

[Nevermore135]

1 hour ago, sonoasailor said:

So picked up the Independence today, and then went to put the Camo (stage 12) and Captain (stage 14) that I supposedly received through completing the stages in the Pass, but they were not there.  Any idea as to when they are supposed to added to one's account - didnt find anything in the blurb on the current 13.0 update....

I received both the captain (Theodore Chandler) as well as credit compensation for the Freedom Baltimore camo immediately without any issue.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

I've played Independence enough that the game is now punishing me with bad teams and really bad RNG on drops.

Had a perfect drop on a Harbin with the level bombers...no hits. Lined up a perfect rocket attack on a Richelieu...ONE measly shatter. Those were back to back attacks.

Yeah. Bullshit.

Still survived to the end and almost carried.

Sometimes I REALLY hate the way this company makes 'RNG' work. I've had it give me way too much damage from attacks in the past as well. Feels dirty.

Time to take a break and play other games.

[Wrath_of_Deadguy]

18 hours ago, sonoasailor said:

So picked up the Independence today, and then went to put the Camo (stage 12) and Captain (stage 14) that I supposedly received through completing the stages in the Pass, but they were not there.  Any idea as to when they are supposed to added to one's account - didnt find anything in the blurb on the current 13.0 update....

If you already had a Theodore Chandler commander, you won't have received the one in the Battle Pass- he's a unique commander, although not one with enhanced skills; you are only allowed to have one of him. I don't know if there is meant to be credit compensation for the duplicate. If you were supposed to receive a Statue of Liberty commander (for the Premium Battle Pass track), you can have more than one of her, and she should be in inventory if she isn't assigned to Yorktown.

If you already had either of the camos in the BP, you will have received credit compensation for the duplicates- 2.5 million for Baltimore's, and 5 million for Des Moines'.

There were no camoflages included in the Battle Pass for either Independence or Yorktown, only for Baltimore and Des Moines. The event camos for the new/old CVs are only available with American Tokens, obtainable through RNG Armory bundles for doubloons, or for grinding beyond Stage 20 in the Premium Battle Pass (the required buy-in will be astronomical for most players, for the sole benefit of the ship's hull number on an otherwise-standard permacamo; don't fall for it- you'd need to complete 20 extra stages in the Premium BP track just for Yorktown's event camo, or else get ridiculously lucky with one of the Armory bundles).

The bonus packages for Independence and, if you have the Premium BP, Yorktown, will have automatically been applied to those ships when acquired; no other action is needed for those.

Edited January 29 by Wrath_of_Deadguy

[Utt_Bugglier]

17 hours ago, sonoasailor said:

So picked up the Independence today, and then went to put the Camo (stage 12) and Captain (stage 14) that I supposedly received through completing the stages in the Pass, but they were not there.  Any idea as to when they are supposed to added to one's account - didnt find anything in the blurb on the current 13.0 update....

Because the camo you unlocked in stage 12 (stage 13?) for Independence was a bonus package, not a camo.

[sonoasailor]

1 hour ago, Utt_Bugglier said:

Because the camo you unlocked in stage 12 (stage 13?) for Independence was a bonus package, not a camo.

DOH!!!!

[sonoasailor]

14 hours ago, Wrath_of_Deadguy said:

If you already had a Theodore Chandler commander, you won't have received the one in the Battle Pass- he's a unique commander, although not one with enhanced skills; you are only allowed to have one of him. I don't know if there is meant to be credit compensation for the duplicate. If you were supposed to receive a Statue of Liberty commander (for the Premium Battle Pass track), you can have more than one of her, and she should be in inventory if she isn't assigned to Yorktown.

If you already had either of the camos in the BP, you will have received credit compensation for the duplicates- 2.5 million for Baltimore's, and 5 million for Des Moines'.

There were no camoflages included in the Battle Pass for either Independence or Yorktown, only for Baltimore and Des Moines. The event camos for the new/old CVs are only available with American Tokens, obtainable through RNG Armory bundles for doubloons, or for grinding beyond Stage 20 in the Premium Battle Pass (the required buy-in will be astronomical for most players, for the sole benefit of the ship's hull number on an otherwise-standard permacamo; don't fall for it- you'd need to complete 20 extra stages in the Premium BP track just for Yorktown's event camo, or else get ridiculously lucky with one of the Armory bundles).

The bonus packages for Independence and, if you have the Premium BP, Yorktown, will have automatically been applied to those ships when acquired; no other action is needed for those.

Thanks, and apparently I already had a t. chandler skipper (lvl 10), so maybe I received some compensation for that.  Not sure why he had to be a unique skipper, so to put a L6 skipper on the boat, I have to spend CXP to retrain at some point (IF i ever play the CV).  And as noted by another poster, the camo was actually a bonus package, which was received.