Monetization in WOWS

[EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico]

Hello everyone.

It seems to me that often topics are derailing eventually into discussions about how WG monetizes their games.

You can use this topic to discuss such monetization here.

I don't want to see any discussions about:

Nation vs Nation, culture wars or differing ideologies or which kind of ideology would benefit us and so on...

Also please try to not point fingers at each other. Some might disagree with your opinions, stay respectful.

 

I will be dragging derailed posts into this topic if necessary. You will not receive a message about it.

[Type_93]

Anything that deals with a players finances is pretty simple. Don’t spend what you can’t afford.  WG is a for profit company. What players think about WG’s monetization is irrelevant. If certain things are pricey, that’s fine. Don’t purchase those things. 

[Verblonde]

28 minutes ago, Type_93 said:

If certain things are pricey, that’s fine.

I think most are realistic enough to understand that WG are a business that needs to make money, and few would take issue with that.

What seems to cause the upset is WG's methodology, which is largely designed to take advantage of those with no impulse control and/or existing gambling issues. They've spent a lot of time working out how to extract money from people in ways that are far more pernicious than 'sell thing a for price b'.

I note you're from the NA server; having moved from the UK to North America a little over a decade ago, I would observe that there are some significant cultural differences in play here: in Europe, there are generally strong consumer protection laws (with general approval); sellers of stuff are generally not supposed to fool the consumer and/or use underhanded practices to do so. Meanwhile, in the US, the laws are much weaker and there appears to be a more general 'do what you can get away with' mentality. I think this drives much of the differences in opinion vis-a-vis WG's approach to monetisation.

[Type_93]

8 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

I think most are realistic enough to understand that WG are a business that needs to make money, and few would take issue with that.

What seems to cause the upset is WG's methodology, which is largely designed to take advantage of those with no impulse control and/or existing gambling issues. They've spent a lot of time working out how to extract money from people in ways that are far more pernicious than 'sell thing a for price b'.

I note you're from the NA server; having moved from the UK to North America a little over a decade ago, I would observe that there are some significant cultural differences in play here: in Europe, there are generally strong consumer protection laws (with general approval); sellers of stuff are generally not supposed to fool the consumer and/or use underhanded practices to do so. Meanwhile, in the US, the laws are much weaker and there appears to be a more general 'do what you can get away with' mentality. I think this drives much of the differences in opinion vis-a-vis WG's approach to monetisation.

I see your point, but it still goes back to players being financially responsible. If you have tendencies toward overspending or gambling, you have to separate yourself from those opportunities. 

[Verblonde]

2 minutes ago, Type_93 said:

I see your point, but it still goes back to players being financially responsible. If you have tendencies toward overspending or gambling, you have to separate yourself from those opportunities. 

This is at the root of much of the disagreement, I suspect: in the US, it's commonly felt to be all down to the individual whereas in Europe there is commonly a stronger belief that society in general has a role to play too.

[EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico]

20 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

This is at the root of much of the disagreement, I suspect: in the US, it's commonly felt to be all down to the individual whereas in Europe there is commonly a stronger belief that society in general has a role to play too.

It certainly has multiple factors. One thing is for sure though. Gambling is as old as when imaginary value was invented. And until now humanity has not been able to out-rule it. It is in the end down to the individual.

[Type_93]

18 minutes ago, EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico said:

It certainly has multiple factors. One thing is for sure though. Gambling is as old as when imaginary value was invented. And until now humanity has not been able to out-rule it. It is in the end down to the individual.

Some of us enjoy gambling. I know I do. But I never let my desire overmatch my budget. I know many think the opposite, but calling loot boxes gambling is a far stretch. Society shouldn’t be held accountable for the poor decisions of an individual. 

[AdmiralThunder]

58 minutes ago, Type_93 said:

Some of us enjoy gambling. I know I do. But I never let my desire overmatch my budget. I know many think the opposite, but calling loot boxes gambling is a far stretch. Society shouldn’t be held accountable for the poor decisions of an individual. 

Well said.

I have never fallen into the camp that gets on WG for the paid crates and calling them WarGambling. Man I will be one of the first to jump on WG and call them out for something scummy and underhanded but the loot boxes just aren't it and especially so now with disclosed drop rates.

As adults it is our right to spend our money as we see fit. It is also our responsibility, as adults, to deal with the consequences of doing that. If you have disposable income and find enjoyment from buying crates knock yourself out. I have personally spent thousands on crates over my 7 years in game (when I felt the content was worth it - this is another key factor people need to keep in mind when deciding to buy or not) and won't apologize for it. If you are struggling and living paycheck to paycheck don't do it. If you are a gambling addict seek professional help. Parents monitor your kids and keep your credit cards safely away from them so Jr doesn't go on a shopping spree for game crates (see this a lot as to why we need government regulation and how they are evil - prey on kids - NO! this is a lack of parenting issue - don't punish/limit me because you don't want to do your job as a parent). 

Also, if you spend on the crates and don't get the big prize you wanted don't blame WG and whine. Only buy crates knowing the chances of getting that brass ring are very small and if you will be happy getting the average/basic rewards. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by AdmiralThunder

[SunkCostFallacy]

Back on the WG forums I touched on this subject from time to time ... sufficiently so that I think I distilled my point of view down to the basics:

I am, and will always be F2P on WOWS. I don't consider that an unfair 'trade' as it were ... WG is getting my time in-game. At worst I'm cannon fodder. At best I'm a shining example of how to play (please read that with an ironic voice ... I'm being self depreciating and humorous).

As a F2P player ... I pay little attention to the monetization in-game ... but if I were called on to express an opinion it would be "Be an adult and don't spend money you can't afford". In which case it wouldn't matter if WG's monetization was predatory or not because as an adult you should have your own act together. Children who are playing the game should be properly supervised the whole time ... in which case it's still not an issue.

(I realise that there are some people who have a gambling problem, for example. I can't speak to that with any insight ... but I wonder if someone with a problem like that should be playing a game which puts so much emphasis on loot boxes)

If I get free stuff from WG then that's cool. Even those eye watering camouflages because I can sell them.

Beyond that ... I hit the Battle Button and go shoot bots.

 

 

[Asym]

On 8/26/2023 at 9:27 AM, EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico said:

Hello everyone.

It seems to me that often topics are derailing eventually into discussions about how WG monetizes their games.

You can use this topic to discuss such monetization here.

I don't want to see any discussions about:

Nation vs Nation, culture wars or differing ideologies or which kind of ideology would benefit us and so on...

Also please try to not point fingers at each other. Some might disagree with your opinions, stay respectful.

 

I will be dragging derailed posts into this topic if necessary. You will not receive a message about it.

OK, I hate to be a PITA but, monetization is all about Cultures and Nations and Ideology.... Geeze.

Take for example why Belgium bans loot boxes and why NA allows them?   Or, why some Asian Nations accept or reject some forms of monetization....

Take NA where there are State House staff's working on banning loot boxes;  at the same time,  other States want to force gambling licensensing of the corporations.

How am I doing so far?

[Asym]

On 8/26/2023 at 10:41 AM, Verblonde said:

I think most are realistic enough to understand that WG are a business that needs to make money, and few would take issue with that.

What seems to cause the upset is WG's methodology, which is largely designed to take advantage of those with no impulse control and/or existing gambling issues. They've spent a lot of time working out how to extract money from people in ways that are far more pernicious than 'sell thing a for price b'.

I note you're from the NA server; having moved from the UK to North America a little over a decade ago, I would observe that there are some significant cultural differences in play here: in Europe, there are generally strong consumer protection laws (with general approval); sellers of stuff are generally not supposed to fool the consumer and/or use underhanded practices to do so. Meanwhile, in the US, the laws are much weaker and there appears to be a more general 'do what you can get away with' mentality. I think this drives much of the differences in opinion vis-a-vis WG's approach to monetisation.

Well said and consider that Social Medical care faced a disaster when the WHO added Videogame Addiction to the ICD's....  The second they did that, National Health Services; Social Insurance Systems; and Private Health Insurance  actuaries  had a nervous breakdown;  because,  of the anticipated and growing volume of and age of patients being diagnosed.....  Those costs were not anticipated and the NHS's and SIS's projected large shortfalls...  Which, forced the question of how to pay for the expanding treatment of ICD-11 - 6C51.0 & 1......   Some Countries decided that to curtail costs, by eliminating the "gambling components" from games - others, simply are scratching their heads because these ICD codes aren't short duration treatments....  Taxing games has been discussed all over the world to cover the costs of this industry.  In the US, well......it gets even stranger. 

So, you are correct:  there are major differences between Nations and in the US, there are States determining what to do......  Some States in the US have lived through and are still convulsing over gambling and children exposed to anything related to "chance mechanics".... 

The further the game goes into "compelled investment" controlled by "chance mechanics" the further down the rabbit hole this discussion goes...

[Sailor_Moon]

On 8/26/2023 at 11:07 AM, Type_93 said:

Don’t spend what you can’t afford.

100% sound advice!

[EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico]

2 hours ago, Asym said:

OK, I hate to be a PITA but, monetization is all about Cultures and Nations and Ideology.... Geeze.

Take for example why Belgium bans loot boxes and why NA allows them?   Or, why some Asian Nations accept or reject some forms of monetization....

Take NA where there are State House staff's working on banning loot boxes;  at the same time,  other States want to force gambling licensensing of the corporations.

How am I doing so far?

Hey, no worries. As long as you objectively list the connections of the why and how monetization is how it is, is allowed how it is you can definitely tell objectively that due to regulations/lack therefore in nation X,Y,Z its easier or harder and so on.

 

Just stay away from making judgements about for example capitalism or blaming political views and their people and so on. If you feel like a debate about how one can and should change the system pops up or you for example notice that users are being pointed at being part of the problem because they follow specific cultures/ideologies you should probably stop continuing.

 

So have fun going into detail. 

 

My personal view as stated in the past is that its down to the individuals responsibility.

[Dareios]

some of the events are quite ludicrous in the terms of 'get it early, for the low low price of 4 times what you can get it later'.

If you have gazillions of real world dollars and want to buy that new t8 premium for 50K dubs or whatever then more luck to you.

Most of the early access thingies I will skip, not because I am incapable of affording them, I just dont see the point when I can buy same thingy for 9K later, or maybe even for free depending on in game currency and luck boxes.

[pew_pew_magoo]

5 hours ago, Dareios said:

some of the events are quite ludicrous in the terms of 'get it early, for the low low price of 4 times what you can get it later'.

I can’t find fault in WG logic here. They make a good chunk of cash from players who are able to spend that cash to be first, but the rest can just wait to get it later if they want. WG isn’t the only game company to do this either. 

[Andrewbassg]

From my pov this is simple. Weegee is a company, needs money to stay operational and to make a profit   What and how much one spends on the game. is... not my business.  

That being said, if they exaggerate with it,  ofc I'm gonna lmao ,like now having SIX simultaneous monetisation events, which is ludicrous, given that not long ago THEY stated that don't want to overhelm the players, with "too many simultaneous events" 🙂

But..... if they make money.....

Now,  if I see predatory tactics and other, less then honest ways ... not gonna be happy about.

Also , I will call out if said monetisations hurt the game's health. And until they change( for the better!!!) their approach towards us and the game.....I will firmly remain a F2P.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[Admiral_Karasu]

Any dealings a customer has with a business is subject to the relevant consumer protection laws. However, it seems when going online, that represents complications and virtual 'goods' appear to be a grey area. This is pretty much the only thing we have been able to establish in any previous discussions as far as I can remember.

[Asym]

2 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Any dealings a customer has with a business is subject to the relevant consumer protection laws. However, it seems when going online, that represents complications and virtual 'goods' appear to be a grey area. This is pretty much the only thing we have been able to establish in any previous discussions as far as I can remember.

Does Amazon charge sales taxes where they are applicable:  yes.  Game are no different.  The law simply hasn't caught up to Video Games yet.  How to collect the money internationally, is the ongoing complication...  That, isn't something that isn't solvable.   Unfortunately, games like WOWS are simply going to suffer a bit depending on how the US decides to proceed.

Several innovation teams are actually looking at the most effective way to "fairly apply taxes" as a research project.  Games create health treatment costs (ICD-11-(6C51) and just like a skeletal/muscular injuries, as an example, those treatment costs have to be charged somewhere and those "future costs" have to be planned for !  Remember, AI game engines are coming and those games are some seriously addictive tools !  Because, they proactively learn what you like and want........and, do something about it.

Now, here we are.....  Existing games from outside of your Nation are at risk of being sanctioned in some way.  Belgium is an example.  It's coming sooner than you realize.

[Admiral_Karasu]

The gaming industry is a bigger business than movies nowadays if I remember correctly. And almost completely unregulated too.

[HogHammer]

3 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

The gaming industry is a bigger business than movies nowadays if I remember correctly. And almost completely unregulated too.

Info from 2020, but still relevant. 

Global videogame revenue is expected to surge 20% to $179.7 billion in 2020, according to IDC data, making the videogame industry a bigger moneymaker than the global movie and North American sports industries combined. The global film industry reached $100 billion in revenue for the first time in 2019, according to the Motion Picture Association, while PwC estimated North American sports would bring in more than $75 billion in 2020.

[SureBridge]

@Asym I hadn't realized that this was your area of research. Interesting the link between "needing to regulate" and the WHO adding (gambling) addictions since many countries have tied their heath systems to WHO defined conditions. 

[Asym]

Just now, SureBridge said:

@Asym I hadn't realized that this was your area of research. Interesting the link between "needing to regulate" and the WHO adding (gambling) addictions since many countries have tied their heath systems to WHO defined conditions. 

We are all "people of many components".....  All of us are collections of knowledge, skills, hard work/experience and areas of study we love.....  Some teach.  Some work to make things change.  Some serve their Nations.  Some innovate.  Some have hobbies others, have no idea about.  And, some of us simply tie all of that together and ask "why".....  Or, in my case, "how did they do that?"    History is one of the toughest teachers......and, failure to study history...... Santayana, Life of Reason, 1905/6 - page 284, in Reason of Common Sense.......sums it up). 

BTW, healthcare is a "family" thingy........so, I get a lot of exposure to it.  So much so, I have a BS in Healthcare (among several others....)  Ever play golf in a scramble format and the other three players are surgeons.....  Sigh....I had to do something !  So, I went back to school, yet again.  In fact, I am lecturing this week at a hospital on the differences on how a hospital's culture affects both Leadership and Management processes.....  (we'll get to the Abilene Paradox about week three......)

For me, it was a SWAT'ing several years ago.  I shoot competitively and know a lot of the police, club and agency people in a 500 mile circle and it affected all of them.  A videogame killed a kid.   I then started to ask how an entertainment culture could produce so much hate !  Oh boy......it is something to see.   Health systems wise, social systems of heath care never saw what the WHO's addition of "videogame addiction" would cost them !  Actuaries in those systems simply fainted when the actual forecasted numbers, that simply are growing exponentially, were and those projected costs have to come from "somewhere - somehow"....  In the US, insurance rates are increased and won't cover the costs.... 

My actual research is on Asymmetrical Systems theory.  Specifically, how to created a tool that can measure a Toffler wave event.... 

Take Belgium's approach:  eliminate loot boxes and that eliminates part of the compulsion.  Other's are going the tax route.  Even more are looking at licensing....  Take you pick and the Occam-esk solution best and easiest to do is what Belgium did.

 

[Taylor3006]

I don't care what they put up for sale or for how much. If you want to spend $100 on a ship, fine. Don't care. This is no different than how life works normally. For some people that could be a lot of money, for others, it is nothing. 

What I don't like is the gambling mechanic and its monetization. This preys on the young, those with an addiction to gambling, and people who are not so bright (maybe just bad at math).  I really don't care what they do with free crates, those used as prizes or incentives to play. But the random bundles and crates that have to be purchased with money I do not like at all. It is one reason that I am still working with my state representatives to start an investigation of the practice, industry wide to see if it violates our gambling laws by promoting gambling in games aimed at teens. Normally I wouldn't be a party to this kind of thing but from my experiences with Wargaming, my mind has been changed. I have to give Wargaming credit for publishing odds when it wasn't required to, but honestly I think it was from player pressure and not the kindness of their hearts. It really was the least they could do, especially since they knew that government would have stepped in to force them to do so, inviting more regulation. I think they just didn't want that kind of attention. 

I am all for capitalism and companies making money in the free market. But there are some kinds of businesses that we don't condone like whorehouses, drug dealing, and gambling.  Least not here anyways. In most of our country, all of those things are illegal and in all our states, it is illegal to allow minors to take part in them. You can't have it both ways. You can't say our product is aimed at teens and then monetize that product thru activity that would be illegal for them to participate in.  

[EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico]

Deleted 2 posts due to being off-topic.

[Frostbow]

This is more of a reminder about the effects of monetization, not only in World of Warships, but in every game.