How to counter subs as a surface ship?

[EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico]

1 hour ago, Yedwy said:

Anyway I would like tips

Have any of the so far provided tips and advice helped you at all? You haven't commented on anyone's advice.

 

You also didn't react to me asking you to post examples of situations or anything. 

Do you actually care?

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

3 hours ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

Hmmm.  So, if I knew the battery time of subs then I would know about when the sub will seek a place out of vision of my team's sight.  Fine I'll send my airstrike there.

Exactly, its a no-brainer. Just figure out where he will go, send strike there and hes dead.

[iDuckman]

Shoot 'em.  HE blast cube works in water.  Since the shell charge detonates at the surface, the cube may not reach a deep sub.  But if you see it or its artifacts, it's not deep.

 

  

On 8/25/2023 at 3:41 PM, Yedwy said:

if I also have to go there to do something to impact the match outcome if we bow down to the sub is there so dont go there we might as well make the game full on casino with some ship models rendered in port

How about you re-title this thread 'How to Counter Subs Without Inconvenince?'

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by iDuckman

[torino2dc]

Repost of mine from the defunctoforum that asked about what counters subs:

"Since submarines rely on vision control / vision asymmetry to gain advantages, anything that has superior vision tools is difficult to deal with. It gets particularly tricky when the enemy ship has multiple ways to control vision, especially when that is combined with high mobility/maneuverability. 

On the Surface

-Most subs have a surface detection in between 5.6km - 6.1km, meaning any DD that has ~5.8km detect or better will bump a surfaced sub before they can react. Since the light is instantaneous, the sub will take a chunk of shell damage before they manage to dive. 

-Stealth radar is also an issue, as it also likely means eating a volley before diving. Though there is a render delay, the sub shows up on everyone's mini map immediately, meaning air drops can also be put out without delay. 

Periscope Depth

-Subs can only see ships at their aerial detection, which for most DDs is around 2.5km-3.5km. However, at this depth, a sub can be lit by hydro as if it's surfaced, meaning that any ship with greater hydro range than aerial detect can make for a nasty surprise. Yes, subs have hydrophone to keep track of targets that they can't see, but depending on the sub it may not be up in time for you to react to a pushing hydro ship. 

-Any DD with 5km+ hydro is automatically a very difficult matchup for a sub, especially if it has competitive concealment (T8: Loyang, Siliwangi, Z-23, Z-35, Harekaze II; T9: Z-46, Groningen, Friesland; T10: Sherman, Z-42, Z-52, Vampire II, Lüshun). 

Fully submerged 30m-60m

-Anything with hydro and ship-launched depth charges can be very difficult to deal with. Underwater, hydro will spot a sub at 2km, eliminating the guess work for the enemy ship -- once they have the you, you're hosed.

-Most folks don't realize that subs lose between 1/3 and 1/2 of their top speed when submerged, meaning that while it is hard to find a sub that's gone below periscope,  it is equally hard for them to really run away. Only exceptions are the Balao and the U-2501, which can retain close to their surface speed."

[Andrewbassg]

5 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

 @Yedwy There's a player named ArIskandir, who has been kind enough to convert two of my replays and host them on his youtube channel.
He's got a lot of Submarine and Anti-Submarine-Warfare videos that are educational.  His channel is worth the time spent on studying what works.

That's true. ArIskandir is  good and a helpful mate and a good chap. He played subs, whilst being critical of Wedgie's shenanigans regarding their implementation.

Miss him, tried to ping him, to no avail.... 😞 

[Yedwy]

6 hours ago, EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico said:

Have any of the so far provided tips and advice helped you at all? You haven't commented on anyone's advice.

 

You also didn't react to me asking you to post examples of situations or anything. 

Do you actually care?

I appretiate your effort but in this case - Not really, i ll elaborate…

Moskva in your example is overextended yes but otherwise she is doing what a flanking cruiser like say Henry does - trying to push flank, yes this is a bad map for it and I prob wouldnt do it on it anyway but principle applies nevertheless, you cannot say “dont go flanking” thats a pointless advice in the “dont be where sub is” category because that yields any potential impact you might have to other players and well Wows playerbase etc…

Jean Bart - nose in sutuation like this happens easily when you push in a BB and are faced by overwhealming force stopping you from going further (unless you want to yolo/try ram) you cant turn without heavy damage, again he is quite far ahead for this stage but principle applies - key note (you said it yourself with kiting) relinqush position and run away, again yield control of your match outcome to another player…

Roon - weather she intended to go for you initially and changed the plans or not is moot, after losing 2 ships (basically half the flank there) her only option is to turn under fire and run and you catch her in turn because of insane sub speeds that allow you to position yourself like that unspotted, had she dropped the charges would she get you by chance is questinable at best, should she have run the hydro? Prob yes if ready but she would still have to turn to run and you prob would still get her, if her charges would do enough damage to kill you at that range - I seriously doubt it TBH

Edinbourg - you are capping, there is no option but to either yield the match or try to do something about it, she might not even have seen the BB at that range at the first but it doesnt matter as the principle applies - try to do something or lose right there and then, in theory she could have went to the edge of the circle and smoke up (bear in mind you said she was spotting you so in this case you are not spotted and she cant shoot you to force you down) but what would happen then is (and you know this) is you would launch torps and blind ping her in smoke forcing her out of it or kill her in smoke outright, at this point she prob just wanted to take you with her to Davy Jones if possible

Now as for the red team ignoring you (not dropping charges on every spot) I agree and I do it whenever I can same as I try to shoot any spotted DD if I deem it reasonable to be able to hit her at the range in question BUT again we arrive at 2 things:

1. Wows plaerbase 2023 and depending on any sensible action on their part

2. Need for 3+ ships to drop whatever they are doing to deal with one sub because if they dont your replay happens

If thats not the showcase for the problem IDK what is TBH

As I said - I dont have a problem with a “standard tato” I killed countless subs like that alone or jointly, problem is that one guy that lurks under a cap he knows you have to come flip or defend if you want a win and then shotgnuns you or spams torps from a direction you cant avoid them from or forces a turn that exposes you to inciming fire, its not “oh I am inconvinienced” rant its there is NO real 1vs1 counter option for that and that is frankly BS level not even CVs manage these days

[Wolfswetpaws]

9 hours ago, Asym said:

BTW, do you see Carriers and Subs in KOTS???  Hmmmmm?  I wonder why not.  

Because it is a "private" kings of the training-room situation.
The kots players literally do not face the same match-making (good, bad, ugly and weird) that "normal" random players face.
I have a low opinion of the "kots" "tournament".  

And now back to the real topic about players leveling-up their anti-submarine-warfare gameplay.  🙂

[Asym]

12 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

And now back to the real topic about players leveling-up their anti-submarine-warfare gameplay.  🙂

ASW gameplay is simple:

• See them Shoot them
• If the happen to be near enough, bomb them
• If you accidentally get "danger close" RAM them

and

• if you are in CCOP - ignore them completely.  They have no real value nor should even be considered relevant.

I can't imagine what else needs to be said......🤔

[Wolfswetpaws]

9 hours ago, Asym said:

so,  if our host doesn't care about quality, why should we? 

WOWs is interested in making a profit.
If they didn't see the potential for profit in releasing new lines of content, and more specifically submarines, then they wouldn't do it.

When I was still a new WOWs player and the RTS CV's were still a thing, I was provided a survey.
Among the many other responses I offered, I said that a game without CV's and Submarines was boring.  I asked for Submarines to be in the game.

How they were implemented is a continual inspiration for discussion.  I'll grant that not everyone was thrilled and overjoyed.

But, I do appreciate that the Submarine Testing took a long (record-setting, long) time.

Many of us thought, "We're almost there, just a few more tweaks and we'll have viable submarine mechanics".  
And then WOWs decided, essentially, "Okay, that's enough testing" and orchestrated their release.
Personally, I speculate they ran out of money in the testing budget, or time, or both. 
But that's just my speculation.

The real point is that *enough* people responded to surveys and asked for submarines, as I reckon it.  And here we are.

So, "why should we" care?
I feel that every player should care enough about their own gameplay to seek to improve their performance as part of their life-long journey.
Some may feel that WOWs is just a pew-pew-pew shootey-botes game they play for silly fun and aren't concerned with becoming a Master of Ship-Fu.
Every player decides for themselves the level of effort they're willing to put it, eh?  🙂 

But this topic is about sharing our personal lessons with other players in order to improve everyone's Anti-Submarine-Warfare potential.
That said, I ask, "What are you contributing to those lessons?"

[Wolfswetpaws]

7 minutes ago, Asym said:

ASW gameplay is simple:

• See them Shoot them
• If the happen to be near enough, bomb them
• If you accidentally get "danger close" RAM them

and

• if you are in CCOP - ignore them completely.  They have no real value nor should even be considered relevant.

I can't imagine what else needs to be said......🤔

Thanks for contributing.  🙂 

[Andrewbassg]

7 hours ago, Yedwy said:

I appretiate your effort but in this case - Not really, i ll elaborate…

Moskva in your example is overextended yes but otherwise she is doing what a flanking cruiser like say Henry does - trying to push flank, yes this is a bad map for it and I prob wouldnt do it on it anyway but principle applies nevertheless, you cannot say “dont go flanking” thats a pointless advice in the “dont be where sub is” category because that yields any potential impact you might have to other players and well Wows playerbase etc…

Jean Bart - nose in sutuation like this happens easily when you push in a BB and are faced by overwhealming force stopping you from going further (unless you want to yolo/try ram) you cant turn without heavy damage, again he is quite far ahead for this stage but principle applies - key note (you said it yourself with kiting) relinqush position and run away, again yield control of your match outcome to another player…

Roon - weather she intended to go for you initially and changed the plans or not is moot, after losing 2 ships (basically half the flank there) her only option is to turn under fire and run and you catch her in turn because of insane sub speeds that allow you to position yourself like that unspotted, had she dropped the charges would she get you by chance is questinable at best, should she have run the hydro? Prob yes if ready but she would still have to turn to run and you prob would still get her, if her charges would do enough damage to kill you at that range - I seriously doubt it TBH

Edinbourg - you are capping, there is no option but to either yield the match or try to do something about it, she might not even have seen the BB at that range at the first but it doesnt matter as the principle applies - try to do something or lose right there and then, in theory she could have went to the edge of the circle and smoke up (bear in mind you said she was spotting you so in this case you are not spotted and she cant shoot you to force you down) but what would happen then is (and you know this) is you would launch torps and blind ping her in smoke forcing her out of it or kill her in smoke outright, at this point she prob just wanted to take you with her to Davy Jones if possible

Now as for the red team ignoring you (not dropping charges on every spot) I agree and I do it whenever I can same as I try to shoot any spotted DD if I deem it reasonable to be able to hit her at the range in question BUT again we arrive at 2 things:

1. Wows plaerbase 2023 and depending on any sensible action on their part

2. Need for 3+ ships to drop whatever they are doing to deal with one sub because if they dont your replay happens

If thats not the showcase for the problem IDK what is TBH

As I said - I dont have a problem with a “standard tato” I killed countless subs like that alone or jointly, problem is that one guy that lurks under a cap he knows you have to come flip or defend if you want a win and then shotgnuns you or spams torps from a direction you cant avoid them from or forces a turn that exposes you to inciming fire, its not “oh I am inconvinienced” rant its there is NO real 1vs1 counter option for that and that is frankly BS level not even CVs manage these days

All of this. Just like with Cv matches it is expected that surface ships play completely differently, forget their roles, their weaknesses and strengths, all of that just because Weegee loves dollar....  

[Andrewbassg]

8 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

WOWs is interested in making a profit.

Well... Weegee is interested in making a profit. And asserted that at one point they will run out of ships. But this problem is entirely their making. Nobody asked them to release entire lines in every month. That's the original sin, which also clutters the game, increase the burden on the servers  and makes it (close to being) unbalanceable.

8 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

When I was still a new WOWs player and the RTS CV's were still a thing, I was provided a survey.
Among the many other responses I offered, I said that a game without CV's and Submarines was boring.  I asked for Submarines to be in the game.

Well we see things  differently 🙂 . Surface ships have to manage their HP, their consumables, in short they also play a survival game and that is an integral part of Wows. Just take RN Cl's and play 'em for a month   :)

Wows, while a tactical shooter is NOT Counterstrike. Never will, nor can be. Those expectations are doomed to never be fulfilled. And attempts in that direction, will drove people away.

8 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

But, I do appreciate that the Submarine Testing took a long (record-setting, long) time.

Many of us thought, "We're almost there, just a few more tweaks and we'll have viable submarine mechanics".  
And then WOWs decided, essentially, "Okay, that's enough testing" and orchestrated their release.
Personally, I speculate they ran out of money in the testing budget, or time, or both. 
But that's just my speculation.

So.... basically even you agree that their implementation is crap  🙂

Otherwise... the long testing period was necessary because according to Weegee themselves ( insert Chieftain video saying subs don't belong to Wows ) so ......

There was a moment when ze divin' " blessings" where almost there ,but..... alas  "over the top sells", Weegee knows it and overbuffed them. Quite a bit.

8 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The real point is that *enough* people responded to surveys and asked for submarines, as I reckon it.  And here we are.

 

Weegee don't care about "enough" only when "nuts squeezed" occurs...sadly.

8 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

So, "why should we" care?
I feel that every player should care enough about their own gameplay to seek to improve their performance as part of their life-long journey.
Some may feel that WOWs is just a pew-pew-pew shootey-botes game they play for silly fun and aren't concerned with becoming a Master of Ship-Fu.
Every player decides for themselves the level of effort they're willing to put it, eh?  🙂 

That's true.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

7 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

All of this. Just like with Cv matches it is expected that surface ships play completely differently, forget their roles, their weaknesses and strengths, all of that just because Weegee loves dollar....  

Ah, but this is true of naval combat and many games.

You can't always play to your intended strengths and role. The idea that you HAVE to play a specific role in every game is a bit absurd.

Take the often repeated mantra that a DDs role is spotting. In a game with aircraft carriers, this is NOT true. It is the plane's job to spot for the team.

There will be times where your ship isn't the right ship for the battle you are playing. That happened a lot in real life as well.

Part of the game is adapting and overcoming the adversity...or at least fighting better than you expected to.

[Admiral_Karasu]

12 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Ah, but this is true of naval combat and many games.

You can't always play to your intended strengths and role. The idea that you HAVE to play a specific role in every game is a bit absurd.

Take the often repeated mantra that a DDs role is spotting. In a game with aircraft carriers, this is NOT true. It is the plane's job to spot for the team.

There will be times where your ship isn't the right ship for the battle you are playing. That happened a lot in real life as well.

Part of the game is adapting and overcoming the adversity...or at least fighting better than you expected to.

 

That's adapting to changing tactical situations you are talking here, not adapting to changes in gameplay mechanics and meta.

[Wolfswetpaws]

6 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

That's true.

At least we agree on one thing.

 

44 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

 

That's adapting to changing tactical situations you are talking here, not adapting to changes in gameplay mechanics and meta.

Real life wars were fought with what the militaries had at the time & place of the battle.
New equipment and capabilities were created and not all of them were tanks & warhsips. 
Blood supply logistics was a huge development during WW-II and it saved lives.

What is, is.

[EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico]

Time to go back on topic.

This topic is to provide help towards the OP regarding subs. If you don't think that it's possible to suggest anything then don't participate as talking about WG isn't really going to provide any helpful tips.

If you want to chat with each other you can continue via PM or create a dedicated topic towards what you dislike about WG or use this topic...

Your conversation was moved into this linked topic above

[iDuckman]

2 minutes ago, EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico said:

If you don't think that it's possible to suggest anything then don't participate

Roger roger.  Out.

 

[Zaydin]

Depth charge them to oblivion in conjunction with other ships ASW airstrikes. A sub caught out of position and in range of multiple ships ASW strikes is going to sink fast.

[Wolfswetpaws]

29 minutes ago, Zaydin said:

Depth charge them to oblivion in conjunction with other ships ASW airstrikes. A sub caught out of position and in range of multiple ships ASW strikes is going to sink fast.

I can confirm this notion.  (Because I've been in the predicament all too often myself while playing a Submarine.)

[Yedwy]

13 hours ago, EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico said:

Time to go back on topic.

This topic is to provide help towards the OP regarding subs. I

I must say I need to correct myself, I actually payed a bit more attention to some stuff you mentioned in the replays you showed and changed the way I approach "sub suspitious territory" resulting in me being able to dispose of some pretty nasty ones yesterday that otherwise would prob either escape me or zap me in the long run so it did actually improve my counterplay, I thank you for them 👍

[Wolfswetpaws]

🙂

[Jakob Knight]

There's alot of good info here, and I think I can only add a few points to those.

 

Sub positions are currently mirrored and usually in front of all other ships on the enemy team.  By seeing where your own subs set up, you have a starting position for the enemy subs.  From that, you can make estimates as to where they will go.

 

While depending on teamplay from your teammates in Randoms can be a disappointing prospect, the spotting of enemy ships is a pretty automatic thing.  Unless you are a Destroyer or stealth Cruiser, you will probably not be the first one to spot a sub.  Keep an eye out for when one is detected to update your own estimates for where they will go and their goals.

 

Subs make terrible cappers until the middle or late game due to their vulnerability while capping.  In almost every case, they will concentrate on enemy shipping rather than capturing areas until there are few enemies who can counter them.  Knowing that, you can improve your predictions as to what the sub will do.

 

Keeping in mind the individual and class abilities and weaknesses of the subs on the enemy team will help determine how you fight them.  Fighting an I-56 with its short dive timer, bad concealment, abundant hull points, quick reload torpedoes and lack of anti-sub consumables is a very different affair from fighting a U-190 with its extreme dive time capabilities, excellent concealment, low hull points, average torpedo reloads, and good anti-sub consumables.

 

In my experience, fighting subs is like fighting destroyers that can't afford to be spotted.  You will face torpedoes, and the standard anti-torpedo tactics will help with that.  You won't have to worry about taking shell fire from the sub (except I-56 if you are low on HPs), and the sub will have to travel either towards you or away to fire (except for Alliance).  When a sub is detected, prioritize it over all other targets if you can and sink it while you can see it.  Remember that, unlike a DD, a sub is subject to area-of-effect weapons on the surface or below it, so it dodging incoming fire is going to be harder on the sub (which is why they make terrible cappers above).

 

Be ready for a cornered sub to make a shotgun attack as it is the only real option they have left aside from ramming if they are cornered.  

 

I know those are all general pieces of advice, but dealing with subs beyond those will depend greatly on what ship you are in, what sub you are facing, and what each of you has in regards to backup.  You might be able to lead the sub on a merry chase, or be able to chase it down and make it die for its team.  You might be able to reach out with air strike depth charges to pummel the sub that a teammate is engaging.  You might be able to ignore the sub because it is out of position and unable to stop you achieving an objective and winning the game.  I will say, as someone who plays subs and hunts them in every kind of other unit in the game, that matches now are quite a bit more lethal to subs than when they were first introduced.  Players have learned what works and what doesn't, and gotten better at those.  

 

Finally, remember that there is no silver bullet to sinking subs, any more than there is against any other shiptype in the game.  It will come down to the players' decisions, that of their team, and the tactical situation, and neither side will have a free ride.  Sometimes you will have the advantage, sometimes you will be the one disadvantaged.  

 

Hope some of this helps!

 

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

19 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

There's alot of good info here, and I think I can only add a few points to those.

 

Sub positions are currently mirrored and usually in front of all other ships on the enemy team.  By seeing where your own subs set up, you have a starting position for the enemy subs.  From that, you can make estimates as to where they will go.

 

While depending on teamplay from your teammates in Randoms can be a disappointing prospect, the spotting of enemy ships is a pretty automatic thing.  Unless you are a Destroyer or stealth Cruiser, you will probably not be the first one to spot a sub.  Keep an eye out for when one is detected to update your own estimates for where they will go and their goals.

 

Subs make terrible cappers until the middle or late game due to their vulnerability while capping.  In almost every case, they will concentrate on enemy shipping rather than capturing areas until there are few enemies who can counter them.  Knowing that, you can improve your predictions as to what the sub will do.

 

Keeping in mind the individual and class abilities and weaknesses of the subs on the enemy team will help determine how you fight them.  Fighting an I-56 with its short dive timer, bad concealment, abundant hull points, quick reload torpedoes and lack of anti-sub consumables is a very different affair from fighting a U-190 with its extreme dive time capabilities, excellent concealment, low hull points, average torpedo reloads, and good anti-sub consumables.

 

In my experience, fighting subs is like fighting destroyers that can't afford to be spotted.  You will face torpedoes, and the standard anti-torpedo tactics will help with that.  You won't have to worry about taking shell fire from the sub (except I-56 if you are low on HPs), and the sub will have to travel either towards you or away to fire (except for Alliance).  When a sub is detected, prioritize it over all other targets if you can and sink it while you can see it.  Remember that, unlike a DD, a sub is subject to area-of-effect weapons on the surface or below it, so it dodging incoming fire is going to be harder on the sub (which is why they make terrible cappers above).

 

Be ready for a cornered sub to make a shotgun attack as it is the only real option they have left aside from ramming if they are cornered.  

 

I know those are all general pieces of advice, but dealing with subs beyond those will depend greatly on what ship you are in, what sub you are facing, and what each of you has in regards to backup.  You might be able to lead the sub on a merry chase, or be able to chase it down and make it die for its team.  You might be able to reach out with air strike depth charges to pummel the sub that a teammate is engaging.  You might be able to ignore the sub because it is out of position and unable to stop you achieving an objective and winning the game.  I will say, as someone who plays subs and hunts them in every kind of other unit in the game, that matches now are quite a bit more lethal to subs than when they were first introduced.  Players have learned what works and what doesn't, and gotten better at those.  

 

Finally, remember that there is no silver bullet to sinking subs, any more than there is against any other shiptype in the game.  It will come down to the players' decisions, that of their team, and the tactical situation, and neither side will have a free ride.  Sometimes you will have the advantage, sometimes you will be the one disadvantaged.  

 

Hope some of this helps!

 

 

👍

[SoshiSone]

I'll give a good tip when playing a BB and running from a sub.  Let them get the ping on the stern.  

Note that guided torps will track the position of the ping location.  When the torps come in view, and just before they stop tracking, you turn hard over.  Your stern will swing away from the direction of the turn.  The torps will track away from the direction of the turn just as they end their track mode.  Torps go one way, ship goes the other.

You don't even need good timing.  If you turn after the track ends, you can often simply turn off the guide track.  If you turn too early, the torps often can't adjust even if they get a bit of track on you.

A bow ping is a bit tougher, but if you can get into tangential or near tangential to the torp direction, sometimes hitting the brakes and turning away (if the torps or coming from rear)...or brakes and turning in if torps are coming from front can help.   Timing is important here and the best suggestion is to just try and learn.

And when you're in a pinch, don't forget subs can't ping you with DamCon active.  If you get caught out and no where to go, sometimes hitting R and evading will get you into a better position.

Lastly, don't expect to escape every time.  Sometimes, they just get you, just like sometimes any other ship can get you...in their own way.

 

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

...

Edited September 5, 2023 by OldSchoolGaming_Youtube