How to counter subs as a surface ship?

[Yedwy]

So in response to the cry for "more structured and gameplay oriented" content I open this topic...

 

Now I am not talking about tips of "pressing G" and how you can aim the deptcharge strikes I am honestly looking to improve my counterplay agaisnt this pest that infested the game, as in the f**ker shotguns you or just keeps spamming torps in your direction with or without the ping besides ping can always come later as well ofc

 

I mean other then "sitting in the corner and crying" obviously

 

And I dont want to hear the WG official pamflet material about "working together" and no that "predict where she might go"  BS either, I can very well predict where the f will go but guess what thet doesnt help one bit if I also have to go there to do something to impact the match outcome if we bow down to the sub is there so dont go there we might as well make the game full on casino with some ship models rendered in port

 

Looking forward to the input

[Rollingonit]

It is mostly teamwork. 

Something spots it and you focus fire it.

Solo it's mostly just good luck. You just hope it isnt a unicum. 

Outta the hundereds of subs Ive seen so far, I only remember maybe 3-4 who wow'd me and took over a game.

I suppose though Ive only been playing the Georgia lately, and that ship handles nearly all the light ships (low HP ships) handily.

Edited August 25, 2023 by EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico
merging double post

[Verblonde]

Probably not the answer you want, but my approach is as follows:

• Don't play Randoms (with the exception of the single one I got accidentally plonked into yesterday because I hadn't noticed the UI had changed), for the obvious reasons.
• In Ranked - IMO - submarines are rarer, and (so far) generally appear singly; this means that when you do have to deal with them, it's just one. There's a good chance (at least at the Ranked level I play) the driver will be an idiot, in which case all you need to do is stay out of spotting distance and wait for the people with air strikes to sink the blighter. I usually play DD, and in Ranked it seems to be a practical proposition to try and influence the game from wherever the submarine isn't. It all gets a lot harder against a competent sub driver; in that case, there sometimes may be something to be said for trying to get him to endeavour to sink you, and try and lure him into the dedicated sub-hunters' air drops?

I'll be interested to hear if the proper players have come up with some worthwhile strategies, as - as far as I know - submarines are still the problem they always have been (only now more of them have drivers that know their business).

[EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico]

I can help you in detail and with voiced commentary on your replays if you like. I can also provide detailed tactic based advice with tools that allow me to draw ideas and scenarios. We can have a session together in discord where I explain it to you with the help of Voice chat and streaming so you can watch and ask.

 

I would need either replays though or more detailed scenarios to help you identify what you might be doing that needs improvement and how you can impact the match better given specific situations. I don't think it would help you to give shallow advice so I will be waiting for additional information from your side.

 

This guide might also help greatly for improving your mindset during games and how to take losses

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SZQRkRJl5KTlgdYEk89RjOs1mTWYg3ByQgQvQJaHny0/edit#bookmark=id.y0h8g3dnwtlz

[Justin_Simpleton]

I've been having pretty good success sinking subs with battleships but each game and encounter is situational.  A few thumb rules: if my BB has decent secondaries move in and try to sink it.  If my ASW is weak, get away and focus fire on ships that hinder my teammates' ability to sink it.  Try to determine if the sub is moving to some place in particular.  When it gets too close, sit on top of it and don't move. Wait for the sub to surface and shoot it.  There's a lot of ways to coordinate with teammates to sink a sub but it involves a lot of mind reading and I can't give any examples.

 

[EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico]

I have a few examples recorded for you as examples of what not to do and how not to play if a sub is wrecking your flank. Of course those are isolated cases in their individual match so your experiences might differ.

 

 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

If in doubt, the best strategy is actually to kite a sub. You have the advantage of being able to dodge torpedoes more easily.

As with many things in this game, you may not have enough tools to make it a fair fight. That is not your fault. This game isn't fair and you just have to decide if its fun or not.

I like making it hard for the enemy to sink me, even in a hopeless situation.

There is not much you can do against a competent sub player if he wants to set you up for a shotgun besides not being in predictable places...and not putting your hull where you can't freely maneuver.

[Verytis]

Use the tools given to you:

• Most high tier ships will have 2 charges of ASW. Use your 1st charge on CD if you have even a rough location. Reserve the 2nd charge for when you get a precise location. Not very effective lone, but 2 or 3 BBs doing it simultaneously can pose some risk to a sub. If you get even 1 hit, that can be used as reference.
• RPF can surfaced/periscope subs, unless they're willing to stay submerged the entire time, at which point they'll have few battery reserves for running away.
• If you're spotted, that means something is out there within your concealment range.

 

Learn how homing torps themselves work:

• They track you based on your current heading, speed and will lead themselves accordingly. But this also means you can throw them off via sudden turns and/or speed juking once those torps get close. Eg. British sub torps are slow and will lead themselves by such a huge distance, you have to worry about letting them turn back towards you rather than overshooting you.
• Don't sit stationary, that is an ideal target
• Shotgun is a very real threat, don't push a sub without screening support and/or hydro.

 

Some ships are naturally better at evading torps, if you want an easier time:

• Speed juking ships such as French/Russian DDs, or Smaland/Ragnar with emergency engine boost.
• British ships with their drifting ability gives your ship sideways movement that throws off torp homing.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

12 hours ago, Verytis said:

Eg. British sub torps are slow

Alliance's might be. Undine's are some of the fastest in the game. 

[Wulf_Ace]

one good rule would be to know your enemy by playing with it.

Since i had to finish some of the missions for somme with subs I got to know how they work, what are good thing and what are bad things.

One thing is that you need to learn their max range with acoustic and normal torpedos. That will help you a lot in keeping distance from them. They are exposed if they have to ping a lot so keep your eye on that also.

Shotguning is not that easy to do beacouse you have to overextend a lot and use a lot of air for that. They will do that only if you are alone or you have overextended.

Watch minimap where the sub has been spotted last time and try to guess where he might me going, something similar like a dd. So i treat them also like they are torpedo dds, avoid, avoid.

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

On 8/25/2023 at 10:41 PM, Yedwy said:

So in response to the cry for "more structured and gameplay oriented" content I open this topic...

 

Now I am not talking about tips of "pressing G" and how you can aim the deptcharge strikes I am honestly looking to improve my counterplay agaisnt this pest that infested the game, as in the f**ker shotguns you or just keeps spamming torps in your direction with or without the ping besides ping can always come later as well ofc

 

I mean other then "sitting in the corner and crying" obviously

 

And I dont want to hear the WG official pamflet material about "working together" and no that "predict where she might go"  BS either, I can very well predict where the f will go but guess what thet doesnt help one bit if I also have to go there to do something to impact the match outcome if we bow down to the sub is there so dont go there we might as well make the game full on casino with some ship models rendered in port

 

Looking forward to the input

In my experience there is 2 scenarios.

1. Sub player is majority of the playerbase (pretty bad) and rush in to enemy team, either gets spotted by enemy sub radar or other fun device or just run aout of battery and surface and die in first 4 min.

2. Sub player is skilled and then you are pretty fooked to be honest since thos surface markers and even pings usually show nowhere even near to where the sub is and if he is skilled, he moves in a sig sag pattern in different directions so trying to nail him with a airstrike is like finding a nail in a haystack. And since he is skilled, he will never run out of battery close to enemy ships or if he does he just shotgun you to the face with 6-8 torps and then he goes dark again. 

So only time you have a chance to "get better" at countering them is when some noob surface close to an allied and you can train to lead the strike before he dies.

Subs and CVs are designed in this game to survive the stupidity of the worst of the worst player. But CVs more than Subs.

[Yedwy]

9 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

In my experience there is 2 scenarios.

1. Sub player is majority of the playerbase (pretty bad) and rush in to enemy team, either gets spotted by enemy sub radar or other fun device or just run aout of battery and surface and die in first 4 min.

2. Sub player is skilled and then you are pretty fooked to be honest since thos surface markers and even pings usually show nowhere even near to where the sub is and if he is skilled, he moves in a sig sag pattern in different directions so trying to nail him with a airstrike is like finding a nail in a haystack. And since he is skilled, he will never run out of battery close to enemy ships or if he does he just shotgun you to the face with 6-8 torps and then he goes dark again. 

So only time you have a chance to "get better" at countering them is when some noob surface close to an allied and you can train to lead the strike before he dies.

Subs and CVs are designed in this game to survive the stupidity of the worst of the worst player. But CVs more than Subs.

OFC thr issue was never with the yoloing potato thats dead within 5-6min (when they run out of dive time) the issue is with the guys that dive just before they will get spottet and have full battery for the engagement and often even some spotting from the others so they can spam guided torps as they please from stealth and run off like a scolded co*k when in danger of beeing run down, even when one knows exaclty where they are going it doesnt help much because they are nearly impossible to catch in time (before they run 2 close to their own team for comfort of the persuer) its not impossible to kill them but it usually costs the persuer their ship in doing so by putting them in a position of no return to do it… Overall a broken design intended for griefing that is exploited mercilessly by better players

[Justin_Simpleton]

On 8/26/2023 at 7:45 AM, Wulf_Ace said:

one good rule would be to know your enemy by playing with it.

I can play my tier X battleship adequately in random but I just cannot handle an enemy Balao submarine.  How long do you think my grind will be to understand how to play Balao well enough to give tier X battleships problems in a random game.  I'm not having much trouble killing subs in tiers 5-8 and I don't play subs at all.  I do get a lot of insights by watching others play the sub such as how they try to avoid detection and airstrikes.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

23 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

OFC thr issue was never with the yoloing potato thats dead within 5-6min (when they run out of dive time) the issue is with the guys that dive just before they will get spottet and have full battery for the engagement and often even some spotting from the others so they can spam guided torps as they please from stealth and run off like a scolded co*k when in danger of beeing run down, even when one knows exaclty where they are going it doesnt help much because they are nearly impossible to catch in time (before they run 2 close to their own team for comfort of the persuer) its not impossible to kill them but it usually costs the persuer their ship in doing so by putting them in a position of no return to do it… Overall a broken design intended for griefing that is exploited mercilessly by better players

Welcome to WoWs.

The game does not claim to have the balance you appear to seek.

Some ships are OP if the player is skilled. WG does not mind this.

If you want a game that balances all ships to have an equal chance of performing well, this is not the game for you.

See the comments above about aircraft carriers...I love and main them, and the comment is spot on. They are obviously balanced by match making popularity, not by performance. This is true of a lot of ships in game.

[Justin_Simpleton]

40 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

And since he is skilled, he will never run out of battery close to enemy ships or if he does he just shotgun you to the face with 6-8 torps and then he goes dark again. 

Hmmm.  So, if I knew the battery time of subs then I would know about when the sub will seek a place out of vision of my team's sight.  Fine I'll send my airstrike there.

[Wolfswetpaws]

4 minutes ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

Hmmm.  So, if I knew the battery time of subs then I would know about when the sub will seek a place out of vision of my team's sight.  Fine I'll send my airstrike there.

Now, you're "thinking".  👍

[Yedwy]

1 minute ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Welcome to WoWs.

The game does not claim to have the balance you appear to seek.

Some ships are OP if the player is skilled. WG does not mind this.

If you want a game that balances all ships to have an equal chance of performing well, this is not the game for you.

See the comments above about aircraft carriers...I love and main them, and the comment is spot on. They are obviously balanced by match making popularity, not by performance. This is true of a lot of ships in game.

Well I am with the game for 7 years and have 40k matchess or thereabouts so I am used to it by now, I am just one of those guys that likes to call water wet and the grass green, I dont like when people call something fine becuse most people are doing poorly using it because then there would be no balancing done in WOWS ever becuse poor players do poorly in even the most powerfull ships

 

Anyway I would like tips how to effectively cunter a sub played like a hunter killer without getting my ship traded for her in a situation where this would not happen against any surface ship or even CVs, the main issue is “get out of jail for free card” aka dive and speed off at 30kt in any direcrion and only other sub can effectively hunt me, remember that “only effectively countered by self” thing was one of the main points in the CV rework, even WG had to admit it was bad design and now they just repetead the mistake for short time profits in typical WG manner

[Wolfswetpaws]

 @Yedwy There's a player named ArIskandir, who has been kind enough to convert two of my replays and host them on his youtube channel.
He's got a lot of Submarine and Anti-Submarine-Warfare videos that are educational.  His channel is worth the time spent on studying what works.

The first video is of me sailing my Ise (before the Ise was provided with air-strike depth-charges) versus a Cachelot that was being a thorn in my team's flank.
He provided spotting and was sending torpedoes which were annoying even when they missed.
In essence, they were doing their job, and doing it well.  🙂
So, I decided to try and sink 'em, with a hybrid-battleship.

Ise vs Submarine  (Note:  ArIskandir frequently would "speed-up" the playback so that videos aren't boring snooze-fests.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, from my U-69's perspective when I was feeling particularly froggy and had quite a bit of luck on my side and team-mates helping to sink ships.

Wolf's Submarine Adventure  (Again, please understand that ArIskandir speeds-up the playback.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I assert that a Battleship is not "helpless" in the face of a Submarine. 
I can say so, because I've sunk Submarines while sailing BB's, during the early days of Submarine Testing and in recent times after BB's were provided with air-strike depth-charges.

Note the amount of teamwork in the second video.
Distracted opponents, spotted by a team-mate, is an oft-used method to win games. 
Submarines, DD's, CV's, a stealthy Cruiser, a BB's spotter plane looking over an island and etc. & etc.  Any player can do the spotting in the right conditions.
The variations on the theme are yours to imagine.

But, and this is my honest opinion with a desire for you to learn to succeed, the first task you need to accomplish is to get rid of your "can don't" negative attitude and replace it with a "Can Do!" optimism.

Clear your mind of old expectations and don't cling to what you think you know.  Start Fresh.  🙂 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

24 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Well I am with the game for 7 years and have 40k matchess or thereabouts so I am used to it by now, I am just one of those guys that likes to call water wet and the grass green, I dont like when people call something fine becuse most people are doing poorly using it because then there would be no balancing done in WOWS ever becuse poor players do poorly in even the most powerfull ships

 

Anyway I would like tips how to effectively cunter a sub played like a hunter killer without getting my ship traded for her in a situation where this would not happen against any surface ship or even CVs, the main issue is “get out of jail for free card” aka dive and speed off at 30kt in any direcrion and only other sub can effectively hunt me, remember that “only effectively countered by self” thing was one of the main points in the CV rework, even WG had to admit it was bad design and now they just repetead the mistake for short time profits in typical WG manner

I don't think you can effectively counter a well played sub...

...but there are things you can do to make the subs job harder and yours easier.

See the videos above.

[Wolfswetpaws]

By the way, here is ArIskandir's youtube channel.  https://www.youtube.com/@ariskandirr.8606/featured
 

[Justin_Simpleton]

There are times when playing a BB against a sub involves no shots whatsoever.  Such a thing happened to me in a standard battle where my team was finishing off the enemy surface ships near their base.  They were screaming for me to join them but I was detected sitting in my base at full health and the sub was unaccounted for.  If I had left my base, the sub would have taken the base and won the game.  He fired torpedoes but I was dodging and weaving and sending airstrikes willy nilly.  Never hit him and never saw him until the last 5 secs of the battle but he never could take the base.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

4 minutes ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

There are times when playing a BB against a sub involves no shots whatsoever.  Such a thing happened to me in a standard battle where my team was finishing off the enemy surface ships near their base.  They were screaming for me to join them but I was detected sitting in my base at full health and the sub was unaccounted for.  If I had left my base, the sub would have taken the base and won the game.  He fired torpedoes but I was dodging and weaving and sending airstrikes willy nilly.  Never hit him and never saw him until the last 5 secs of the battle but he never could take the base.

So much of battleship play revolves around things not involving the guns sometimes.

Delay and obstruct. That has value.

Good jorb.

[Justin_Simpleton]

Another tip.  If you have been running away from a sub that is chasing you.  Aim your airstrikes well in front of the ping location because he's basically trying to close the distance or keep up and thus he's not likely to turn much.  I hope sub players do not adjust their play based on this tip.

[Asym]

24 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

 @Yedwy There's a player named ArIskandir, who has been kind enough to convert two of my replays and host them on his youtube channel.
He's got a lot of Submarine and Anti-Submarine-Warfare videos that are educational.  His channel is worth the time spent on studying what works.

The first video is of me sailing my Ise (before the Ise was provided with air-strike depth-charges) versus a Cachelot that was being a thorn in my team's flank.
He provided spotting and was sending torpedoes which were annoying even when they missed.
In essence, they were doing their job, and doing it well.  🙂
So, I decided to try and sink 'em, with a hybrid-battleship.

Ise vs Submarine  (Note:  ArIskandir frequently would "speed-up" the playback so that videos aren't boring snooze-fests.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, from my U-69's perspective when I was feeling particularly froggy and had quite a bit of luck on my side and team-mates helping to sink ships.

Wolf's Submarine Adventure  (Again, please understand that ArIskandir speeds-up the playback.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I assert that a Battleship is not "helpless" in the face of a Submarine. 
I can say so, because I've sunk Submarines while sailing BB's, during the early days of Submarine Testing and in recent times after BB's were provided with air-strike depth-charges.

Note the amount of teamwork in the second video.
Distracted opponents, spotted by a team-mate, is an oft-used method to win games. 
Submarines, DD's, CV's, a stealthy Cruiser, a BB's spotter plane looking over an island and etc. & etc.  Any player can do the spotting in the right conditions.
The variations on the theme are yours to imagine.

But, and this is my honest opinion with a desire for you to learn to succeed, the first task you need to accomplish is to get rid of your "can don't" negative attitude and replace it with a "Can Do!" optimism.

Clear your mind of old expectations and don't cling to what you think you know.  Start Fresh.  🙂 

First off, thanks for a well written and positive reply with some really useful data.  👍

Speaking for myself, after years and years of OP sales gimmicks, I have no desire to "break even" yet again;  because,  of some sales gimmick designed to make money at my playing expense.    I don't even waste my time with Subs - other than to ram them when I get the chance.  Subs are the same as Carriers in Update 8.

So, I just ignore them.  You should be glad I don't play Randoms;  because,  I simply wouldn't care if I was sunk by them.......they ruin the game as deployed;  so,  if our host doesn't care about quality, why should we? 

BTW, do you see Carriers and Subs in KOTS???  Hmmmmm?  I wonder why not.  

[clammboy]

On 8/25/2023 at 6:56 PM, EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico said:

I have a few examples recorded for you as examples of what not to do and how not to play if a sub is wrecking your flank. Of course those are isolated cases in their individual match so your experiences might differ.

 

 

Thank you for posting these videos apperciate your trying to help. However some of these just highlight bad play and how subs force you to spend to much of your time just guessing where there are and where there going . It also highlights how much you have to depend on teammates who quite honestly are not worried about you or interested in helping you in todays meta. Nobody shows videos of were almost everything was done correctly but you ended up with the same results as above or how you were forced to end up in a bad poistion to begin with due to the flow of the game.

I'm not sure if a class of ships should actually require so much time and effort to counter we already have CVs for that. I know some people might not agree with this but these people are usually vetern players like you well versed in tactic and game mechanics or people who main subs and want no change. You have 40k games played I believe and obviously you are smart and a very good player who at least is interested in helping more novice players out.

Thanks for the videos and the offers for help if I wasn't working 7 days a week I would take you up on that.