German Panzershieff line - now with Schnelle_GrosseKampfschiffe

[kriegerfaust]

Do you think a line with a small number of heavy guns can make it in the current game meta, currently ships with less than eight main guns seem to suffer.  At least the ones i play with few guns even a few missed shells can take the teeth out of a salvo,

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by kriegerfaust

[kriegerfaust]

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by kriegerfaust

[tfcas119]

I wouldn't mind a German Panzerschiff line, but they probably used most of the ships they could of used for it (Schill, Schroder, Siegfried) as premiums, so they'd likely have to pull some designs from their minds.

[Yedwy]

Well Spee is ok-ish albeit gimped by the thin plate a bit when facing off vs BBs and HE spam, Schill is glorious though, I d like more of this kind of ships and the like could start at T2 at even tiers like subs and cvs are they could taks some of the armored cruisers for t2, make some Jutland era project of said stuff for T4 (there must have been a project of something like that even if it never materialised maybe with earlier version of 11” or a 10” in 2x3 gun setup) and for T10 they could just make a beefed up Shill with a bit more range on main and secs, 128mm dual purpose guns and 3x350/380, it might even be possible to add a 3x420 as a supership down the line…

[kriegerfaust]

http://dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_Studienentwurf/Schnelle_GrosseKampfschiffe_3022_100dpi.jpg

http://dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_Studienentwurf/Schnelle_GrosseKampfschiffe_3021_100dpi.jpg

http://dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_Studienentwurf/Schnelle_GrosseKampfschiffe_5041_100dpi.jpg

http://dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_Studienentwurf/Schnelle_GrosseKampfschiffe_5031_100dpi.jpg

http://dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_Studienentwurf/Schnelle_GrosseKampfschiffe_4941_100dpi.jpg

http://dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_Studienentwurf/Schnelle_GrosseKampfschiffe_4542_100dpi.jpg

http://dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_Studienentwurf/Schnelle_GrosseKampfschiffe_4531_100dpi.jpg

 

http://dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_Studienentwurf/GrosseKreuzer_10_100dpi.jpg

http://dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_Studienentwurf/GrosseKreuzer_12_100dpi.jpg

http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4774

http://seawarpeace.ru/deutsch/grossekreuzer/01_main/14_gk-18.html

Edited December 28, 2023 by kriegerfaust

[kriegerfaust]

not german

https://imgur.com/YZHdBuS

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by kriegerfaust

[Andrewbassg]

1 hour ago, kriegerfaust said:

not german

https://imgur.com/YZHdBuS

 

 

Lolz.....looks like german turret, british bridge, dutch stack on a russian hull...

 

 

[MBT808]

This is very outdated in terms of line development. It doesn't fit the historical progression that a panzerschiffe line would take.

Also Entwurf I/10 is already in the game, being the german tier VII cruiser Yorck. The tier X of the old reddit post is in the game at tier IX Admiral Schroeder. Schnelle GrosseKampfschiffe 5041 is Schlieffen.

Edited December 29, 2023 by MBT808

[Project45_Opytny]

33 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

This is very outdated in terms of line development. It doesn't fit the historical progression that a panzerschiffe line would take.

Also Entwurf I/10 is already in the game, being the german tier VII cruiser Yorck. The tier X of the old reddit post is in the game at tier IX Admiral Schroeder. Schnelle GrosseKampfschiffe 5041 is Schlieffen.

Schroeder is presented in a strange modified state with no torpedoes, Great War vintage shells (that have drawn much criticism) and many 128mm DP secondaries. A more historical version with torpedoes, WWII modernized shells (from Koenig) may be different enough to be included in a research branch.

Schnelle Grosserkampfschiffe projects has been largely developed as Tiers 8~10 German battlecruisers (GK-4531 as Zieten, GK-4541 as Prinz Rupprecht, GK-5041 as Schlieffen).

As higher tiered Dutch cruisers are based more on studies done by the Dutch themselves, I think it is possible to include premlinaries made by German engineers that have more resemblence to Scharnhorst-class into a German branch, a la how one project produced two ships, Catalunia and Amalfi, in game.

A personal idea is that maybe SMS Bulcher can be inserted between Karlsruhe and Deutschland-class.

[MBT808]

30 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

Schroeder is presented in a strange modified state with no torpedoes, Great War vintage shells (that have drawn much criticism) and many 128mm DP secondaries. A more historical version with torpedoes, WWII modernized shells (from Koenig) may be different enough to be included in a research branch.

Schnelle Grosserkampfschiffe projects has been largely developed as Tiers 8~10 German battlecruisers (GK-4531 as Zieten, GK-4541 as Prinz Rupprecht, GK-5041 as Schlieffen).

As higher tiered Dutch cruisers are based more on studies done by the Dutch themselves, I think it is possible to include premlinaries made by German engineers that have more resemblence to Scharnhorst-class into a German branch, a la how one project produced two ships, Catalunia and Amalfi, in game.

A personal idea is that maybe SMS Bulcher can be inserted between Karlsruhe and Deutschland-class.

Well the progression of the line should basically be this from a purely historical standpoint: Deutschland, P-class, P-class 38cm conversion, Schlachtkreuzer O, and finally Schlachtkreuzer O(design 42). There was also a P-class with three 28cm guns in the proposed historical A-XY layout that would fit along side the tier VIII 38cm conversion, both were considerations at the time. Ultimately though both possibilities were cancelled in favour of SchlachtKreuzer O.

Preliminary Scharhorst is an idea, but not for the panzerschiffe line. Odin basically represents that in game, albeit with WG fantasy refit.

[Nevermore135]

2 hours ago, MBT808 said:

Well the progression of the line should basically be this from a purely historical standpoint: Deutschland, P-class, P-class 38cm conversion, Schlachtkreuzer O, and finally Schlachtkreuzer O(design 42). There was also a P-class with three 28cm guns in the proposed historical A-XY layout that would fit along side the tier VIII 38cm conversion, both were considerations at the time. Ultimately though both possibilities were cancelled in favour of SchlachtKreuzer O.

There’s also the D-class, which was intended to be the direct successor to the Deutschland-class. They were to have the same armament and similar speed to the Deutschland-class but improved protection. One ship was laid down, but the advent of the French Dunkerque resulted in a change of plans. Initially the decision was made to modify the design with a third main battery turret (something that the Navy had been pushing for all along but was opposed by Hitler), but the ships were eventually abandoned in favor of the Scharnhorsts.

The original design might be too similar to the Deutschlands (which one would assume would be the logical tier VI or VII) but the nine-gun variant might be a good step between a 2x3 283mm and 2x3 380mm ship.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Nevermore135

[MBT808]

34 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

The original design might be too similar to the Deutschlands (which one one assume would be the logical tier VI/VII), but the nine-gun variant might be a good step between a 2x3 283mm and 2x3 380mm ship.

Yes, I'm aware, but as far as I can tell there is no actual designs for a 3x3 D-class where as a 3x3 P-class was drawn up somewhere with detailed specifications.

34 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

There’s also the D-class, which was intended to be the direct successor to the Deutchland-class. They were to have the same armament and speed of the Deutschland-class but improved protection. One ship was laid down, but the advent of the French Dunkerque resulted in a change of plans. Initially the decision was made to modify the design with a third main battery turret (something that the Navy had been pushing for all along but was opposed by Hitler), but the ships were eventually abandoned in favor of the Scharnhorsts.

Actually from what I've read D-class was abandoned in favour of the scharnhorsts and the P-class, which consequentially got abandoned in favor of Schlachtkreuzer O. There was a proposal to upgun the P-class later with 38cm that were intended for Gniesenau and Scharnhorst. Which is why I actually would ideally like to have a 2x3 38cm variant and the 3x3 A-XY P-class both at tier VIII as research options. However if that were impossible, the 38cm conversion P-class makes the most sense as the transition ship.

Edited December 29, 2023 by MBT808

[Nevermore135]

12 hours ago, MBT808 said:

Actually from what I've read D-class was abandoned in favour of the P-class initially, which consequentially got abandoned in favor of Schlachtkreuzer O

The P-class were intended to be significantly faster than the D-class, but would not have been as well protected (at least at the armored belt). The D-class were an early ‘30s project (started in 1933, while the Deutschlands were still under construction), while the P-class were part of a later design program (1937 or ‘38, IIRC) that was incorporated into Plan Z.

The first of two D-class ships was laid down in Feb 1934, but the ship’s construction was very quickly put on hold (per my earlier post), and it was scrapped on the slipway in July of that year. The Scharnhorst-class began construction in 1935, predating the P-class designs, as a replacement for the abandoned D-class to counter the Dunkerque-class ships that were being constructed by France.

We already have a P-class variant in game (Schill) and if one is honest WG could easily alter any one of the D- or P-class designs for whatever parameters they desire and still call it one or the other. It’s not like WG hasn’t done so before.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Nevermore135

[Lord_Slayer]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:43 PM, kriegerfaust said:

Do you think a line with a small number of heavy guns can make it in the current game meta, currently ships with less than eight main guns seem to suffer.  At least the ones i play with few guns even a few missed shells can take the teeth out of a salvo

When it first came out, some people could make the Graf Spee sing in battle. It could delete most cruisers at its Tier, and could deal some damage to BBs. Yes it could be taken out in a drawn out slug fest, but most people don't get that close.

As for the current meta: there are several ships in game now that when angled properly to the red team cannot use their aft guns (some don't even have any), limiting them to the 4-8 barrels forward. Republique only has a turret forward and aft, meaning technically she can only bring 4 barrels to bare when at specific angles to a target. People do not seem to have any issues with these.

There are going to be people who can make these ships work, the rest are providing the XP.