What Does it Take to Win Consistently??

[ArIskandir]

55 minutes ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

My question is:  will the good players div up with me?  It will bring down their win rate, right?  What would be their incentive?

My Div WR is actually lower than my Solo WR. The incentive is having fun with friends, even if they are not good at the game you'll have a good time and they will get better WR for sure. I'll have no issue Diving up with you, but since I'm no longer playing that ain't happening soon. 

Spoiler

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by ArIskandir

[YouSatInGum]

43 minutes ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

My question is:  will the good players div up with me?  It will bring down their win rate, right?  What would be their incentive?

You might be surprised.  If you have the right attitude.. i.e.  I want to learn how to be a better player or please teach me and tell me how to play better or make better decisions, then you can find div mate who like to teach.  I do this already on occasion. 

 

[YouSatInGum]

7 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

My Div WR is actually lower than my Solo WR. The incentive is having fun with friends, even if they are not good at the game you'll have a good time and they will get better WR for sure. I'll have no issue Diving up with you, but since I'm no longer playing that ain't happening soon. 

well...you reason for the div is a good whole hearted affair and my hat's off to you for that.

But trust me when I say that many div up for the sole reason for trying to stack the deck.

...and  the reason for that is because as a solo player the deck slightly stacked against you.  Especially during primetime hours, you WILL run into

divisions that are created for that purpose and math of the matter says that it's more likely that div will be on the opposing team.

Once you play this game long enough, if you pay attention to the teams, you will start to notice this effect.  It's the main reason I play ranked mostly because if I want to play solo, I'd rather have it be a fair and square thing.

 

(Following advice is exclusive of CV's and subs since they are cheating) But since we are on the subject of ranked.... if you want to win in ranked (and random to a lesser degree)

you want to make as big of impact as early as possible.  This is why DDs are the most influential surface unit.  They are usually first contact and you have a chance to make the first kill.  But other ships like radar mino and DM are the same... they can easily influence the game right from the start.  Conversely, it's same reason why ships like Yoshino are terrible for winning because it's very difficult for them to make an influential play from the start. 

So, get good at ships like Marceau, Daring, or DM and concentrate on just those ships (or ones like them) and your WR will improve.

Edited December 27, 2023 by YouSatInGum

[ArIskandir]

5 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

But trust me when I say that many div up for the sole reason for trying to stack the deck.

...and  the reason for that is because as a solo player the deck slightly stacked against you.  Especially during primetime hours, you WILL run into

divisions that are created for that purpose and math of the matter says that it's more likely that div will be on the opposing team.

Yeah of course, that's why I always assumed Randoms as a sort of "Squad" oriented mode and Ranked as the true "Solo" mode. I also focused more on Ranked, and left Randoms for those moments when I fancied "Maximum Effort" mode.  

[HogHammer]

39 minutes ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

My question is:  will the good players div up with me?  It will bring down their win rate, right?  What would be their incentive?

(1) Good players (those with good stats and team-type players) should not have a problem going into a battle with players with a lower win rate - as long as they are willing to learn.

(2)  A good player, say, with 5,000 or more games under their belt, will hardly notice a drop or rise in their win rate.  For example, I often go into battle to help or just enjoy the teamwork with players wanting to improve their game.  After recently playing 247 battles, my win rate went from 56.04 to 56.11 (just a 0.07 change).  Realistically, it will have little impact on their win rate.  Actually, I think many players would be more than willing to "help out" as long as one is really attempting to learn from the experience.

(3)  Incentive?  That really comes down to the individual player.  

I will also add that there are players here on the forum @BOBTHEBALL, for example, who are more than happy to review a battle replay.  That, too, can be very helpful.  

[Aethervox]

19 hours ago, Kalishnikat said:

Good play cannot overcome terrible MM.

Sometimes, it can, although, this is uncommon.

1 hour ago, YouSatInGum said:

Back to your original question.  If you want to win....div up with other good players.

Basically it's a legal "cheat" that allows you to stack your own team before the MM has any say in the matter.  It's also the number one reason why the random matchmaker is anything but random.  I can just about guarantee you that your solo 52% rate with become 62% or more depending on the players with you.

This ^^^

15 hours ago, New_Jersey_prpr said:

Just keep in mind that 60-80% of the outcome of a match are decided by your luck, the rest 20-40% can be decided by impactful players in the match (depending on skills)......

... by your luck (or lack thereof). I would not term what the MM does as 'luck' - I would term that the intentional loss patent from WG MM - take a look at the trajectory of WG games - initially they offer many close battles - then the intentional shortening of battle time happens along with the inevitable MM where a few players on one side die early (more often on your side) resulting in more & more Roflstomps (which is the current state of the game). How often does one see a close battle these days? Case closed.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Aethervox

[ArIskandir]

17 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

This is why DDs are the most influential surface unit.  They are usually first contact and you have a chance to make the first kill.  But other ships like radar mino and DM are the same... they can easily influence the game right from the start.  Conversely, it's same reason why ships like Yoshino are terrible for winning because it's very difficult for them to make an influential play from the start. 

Indeed! DD>CA>BB in terms of ranked influence

Spoiler

Utility and Cap control secure matches

Spoiler

And close range action is far more influential than long range spam

Spoiler

Spam and big damage numbers pay better tho 😄... I needed da money

 

Stats don't lie

[BOBTHEBALL]

6 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Please go on, this is quite interesting. ✍🏼️

Well when we have a look at certain ships. Lets say we're looking at the tier 5 Omaha, now it has pretty bad statistics regarding average damage, WR and kills.
There are a couple reasons for this;

1. It's a hard ship to play
2. It's in an extremely common line to grind
3. Newer players are going to be grinding it

These three reasons allow the ship to have horrible statistics.

49.69% WR, lets be honest. This is below average and not really impressive.

0.57 Kills per game, also a really poor statistic

22k average damage, also incredibly poor

As you can see because Omaha (a hard ship to play) is played a lot by not very good players the statistics are quite bad. And because the average statistics are quite bad it allows someone to come in with more experience and easily be able to gain unicum status. If we look at the top 10% of Omaha players we're given these stats.

WR of 65.81%, very achievable for an experienced player clubbing at tier 5

1.27 Kills per game also really achievable for a clubber

41k Average damage, still a bit low on the grand scheme of things (Less hp than most tier 5 BBs)

You can see here, to get into the top 10% of Omaha players it doesn't actually require too much. If an experienced player wants to club at tier 5 then they'll easily get unicum or even superunicum stats. This is just with one example as well, there are many more good sealclubbing ships and it doesn't have to stop at tier 5. Clubbers can and will go lower just to pad their stats against people who just started playing the game.

This is why if an experienced player is spamming games in low tier ships it's genuinely not as impressive as playing high tier. Sure there are bad players at all tiers, people who just bought into the game or used a special code for a tier 10. However they can still gain unicum stats with this clubbing, even though they probably have no idea how to play at higher tiers.

There's my little rant and hope it helped you understand a bit more.

- Boob

[BOBTHEBALL]

1 hour ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

My question is:  will the good players div up with me?  It will bring down their win rate, right?  What would be their incentive?

It depends really, sometimes I div with my friends like @RX160S_Byarlant_Customand give him little hints when he needs it. We did this a ton when I was pushing to fix my Petropavlovsk statistics. However if I were to play a DD I'd like for him to give me little bits of information and helpful tips. Personally I enjoy helping people and seeing their improvement but for others there might not be that incentive. 
Regarding bringing down their stats unless you're incredibly bad I wouldn't think you'd do that.

[Admiral_Karasu]

5 minutes ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

Well when we have a look at certain ships. Lets say we're looking at the tier 5 Omaha, now it has pretty bad statistics regarding average damage, WR and kills.
There are a couple reasons for this;

1. It's a hard ship to play
2. It's in an extremely common line to grind
3. Newer players are going to be grinding it

These three reasons allow the ship to have horrible statistics.

49.69% WR, lets be honest. This is below average and not really impressive.

0.57 Kills per game, also a really poor statistic

22k average damage, also incredibly poor

As you can see because Omaha (a hard ship to play) is played a lot by not very good players the statistics are quite bad. And because the average statistics are quite bad it allows someone to come in with more experience and easily be able to gain unicum status. If we look at the top 10% of Omaha players we're given these stats.

WR of 65.81%, very achievable for an experienced player clubbing at tier 5

1.27 Kills per game also really achievable for a clubber

41k Average damage, still a bit low on the grand scheme of things (Less hp than most tier 5 BBs)

You can see here, to get into the top 10% of Omaha players it doesn't actually require too much. If an experienced player wants to club at tier 5 then they'll easily get unicum or even superunicum stats. This is just with one example as well, there are many more good sealclubbing ships and it doesn't have to stop at tier 5. Clubbers can and will go lower just to pad their stats against people who just started playing the game.

This is why if an experienced player is spamming games in low tier ships it's genuinely not as impressive as playing high tier. Sure there are bad players at all tiers, people who just bought into the game or used a special code for a tier 10. However they can still gain unicum stats with this clubbing, even though they probably have no idea how to play at higher tiers.

There's my little rant and hope it helped you understand a bit more.

- Boob

I see what you mean. However, using your example of the Omaha, isn't it possible extrapolate on that and claim much of the game works exactly the same way? You learn how something works in the meta, be it Omaha, another ship, a mechanic, or a map feature, and you use your knowledge and/or experience to tap into that and essentially copy paste your own game play ad infinitum.

[ArIskandir]

14 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

I see what you mean. However, using your example of the Omaha, isn't it possible extrapolate on that and claim much of the game works exactly the same way? You learn how something works in the meta, be it Omaha, another ship, a mechanic, or a map feature, and you use your knowledge and/or experience to tap into that and essentially copy paste your own game play ad infinitum.

The point in discussion is mathematical. It is much easier to "pad stats" in a ship with bad average values than in ships with above average values, the bar for needed results is lower. Of course you need a certain degree of experience/skill to pull the feat, but the payout will be higher when the stats bar is lower (which in many cases correspond to popular ships with a high skill floor). 

[SureBridge]

2 hours ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

My question is:  will the good players div up with me?  It will bring down their win rate, right?  What would be their incentive?

To help you get better. This is the reason that many clans exist, to train "new" players into "good" players who can continue this cycle. 

5 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

Personally, I value the 50 percent win raters

I value the TRAINERS who often have a low win rate (and a LOT of battles) bringing newer players into divs and helping them (in real time) work on their gameplay. 

If I'm looking at a player who has "unicum" stats, I'll often take a look at what tier they play at. I'm much less impressed by folks who have "good" stats in T5/6 games (often with the Kamakazie sisters and a certain Italian battleship) than players who have "average" (48%) stats and play most of their games at T9/10. 

 

[I_cant_Swim_]

@Justin_Simpletonlet me answer that for my specific case. Yes, my div with the two guys in Tier V who are hugely better than me at the game probably did come at a cost to them in terms of wins. My win rate with them was 69%. Without them? I don’t know if I’d hit 50%. My incentive? Learn from those better than me while building my fleet, gain friends and have fun all the time. Learn, so I can help my own clan get better too. I mentioned elsewhere that i want to be comfortable at tier V with my skills before moving on to tier VI and so on. I think I’m there now. I don’t need to be an ace, I’m not that material. So I’ll move on and without a doubt  see my WR plummet like a stone from the sky, but thats ok cos it was never about that number for me. I just had the good fortune to know those two guys ( they’re in my ex clan). 
So why did they do it? I don’t really know. But it centered around the use of voice chat for in game comms. They were, like John the ruthless, darned good at reading the game and suggesting an approach, and as they weren’t annoyingly bossy about it it worked awesomely well. They let me make a lot of stupid mistakes. They had fun discussing and planning together in chat and then executing the plan, but it was still all easy going. They chatted about other things, too, like naval history, fun things, serious things, you name it. It worked for them, and they could take the loss in training a noob like me. They were just very nice guys to div with. Less so to div against…

[AdmiralThunder]

21 hours ago, Kalishnikat said:

A 2493 personal rating over the last 300 or so games is apparently not enough to win consistently. I just stay at slightly over 52% with many losing streaks thrown in for good measure. It seems you do all you can to play well but it doesn't translate into "winning." Good play cannot overcome terrible MM. I've lost count the number of times I've been #1 on the losing team. The lack of agency in this game gets very tiresome. 

All I can tell you, based on what I have observed, is WG has rigged the MM (also your shooting results - dispersion seems worse, nothing but overpens, citadels = nope, fires = nope, leaving reds alive on a few HP vs nuking them, etc...) and you WON'T win no matter what/how well you do when it triggers to slap you down. Even in those really good games you have they could have been so much better if you weren't screwed by RNG.

Play well for long enough and suddenly no matter what you do you can't buy a win because WG will say no (and no one will convince me otherwise at this point). The only thing I have found that helps when that rigged MM kicks in is to literally stop playing Randoms for at least a couple days (week+ seems to work better) and then suddenly you can win again when you start back up. This literally happens to me every time so I no longer believe it is tin foil hat theory.

So if you start losing game after game no matter what just stop for a few days. The key is to see it happening and not keep going and make the losing streak worse. I have fallen victim to it that last 2 days and pushed it too much and all the WR progress I have made over the last 2 months or so is down the drain. Time to stop Randoms for a good week at least.

Edited December 27, 2023 by AdmiralThunder

[BOBTHEBALL]

1 hour ago, HogHammer said:

I will also add that there are players here on the forum @BOBTHEBALL, for example, who are more than happy to review a battle replay.  That, too, can be very helpful.  

I mean I will happily look at replays sent. I always try my best to offer the most in-depth and helpful advice regarding ship positioning, pushing plays and just how to win better.

[BOBTHEBALL]

56 minutes ago, SureBridge said:

To help you get better. This is the reason that many clans exist, to train "new" players into "good" players who can continue this cycle. 

I value the TRAINERS who often have a low win rate (and a LOT of battles) bringing newer players into divs and helping them (in real time) work on their gameplay. 

If I'm looking at a player who has "unicum" stats, I'll often take a look at what tier they play at. I'm much less impressed by folks who have "good" stats in T5/6 games (often with the Kamakazie sisters and a certain Italian battleship) than players who have "average" (48%) stats and play most of their games at T9/10. 

 

If you want someone to train you, ideally they'd have great stats in all tiers and ship classes. This is so they can gain the understanding of all classes, including CVs and Subs. This is so when you eventually have trouble dealing with someone in a CV and Sub then you'll have the tools and knowledge from someone who knows how to perform the best and you'll actually be able to counter it.

[SureBridge]

56 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

So if you start losing game after game no matter what just stop for a few days. The key is to see it happening and not keep going and make the losing streak worse. I have fallen victim to it that last 2 days and pushed it too much and all the WR progress I have made over the last 2 months or so is down the drain. Time to stop Randoms for a good week at least.

Ummmm Actually playing Randoms at Christmas (when there are a bajillion "casual" players) is a recipe for bad games - in general one side or the other will get truly *terrible* players and you will have a 5-7 minute game much more often than during "regular" prime time. If you must play over Christmas (or thanksgiving or...) then it's usually best to play in the hour before clan battles, or the hour after - during clan battles most of the capable players will be playing CB's.

That said I had a few stellar games seal clubbing T10's when my clan couldn't get enough players together for CB's: a div of Storm+ level players tend to do well against ill-coordinated opposition. 

[I_cant_Swim_]

8 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

A player with a win rate in the 60s or more I distrust, because it means the odds are that they aren't up against worthy opponents or are taking extraordinary steps to ensure they don't lose, such as playing mainly as part of a division

I don't know that I'm reading this as intended. Starting from a point of neutrality, I have no problem trusting a player who has earned the trust, irrespective of his win rate. Divving is an option in the game, theoretically open to anyone, and to me the communication in divs is what gives the game return value, for randoms at least. I don't believe most such players do it to ensure they don't lose. Perhaps they just enjoy the option as much as I do.

What I appreciate most of all is the folks that have the skill and who take the time to teach. Who are patient with those who are less skilled and remain pleasant to learn from.

[YouSatInGum]

2 hours ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

If you want someone to train you, ideally they'd have great stats in all tiers and ship classes. This is so they can gain the understanding of all classes, including CVs and Subs. This is so when you eventually have trouble dealing with someone in a CV and Sub then you'll have the tools and knowledge from someone who knows how to perform the best and you'll actually be able to counter it.

I somewhat agree except the part about all classes....  surface ships and CV's are effectively different games.

Also, most players tend to specialize in one end of the scale or the other.

In my example, I don't play BB's all that much....  I can play them at an about average level, but DD's and cruisers are more my thing.  Therefore, I wouldn't try to teach somebody BB's beyond basic strats, but I'm much more confident teaching CA/CL/gun boat DD stuff. 

But the person has to be willing to listen and take criticism....which can be hard to not take personally sometimes.

 

 

 

[I_cant_Swim_]

3 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

But the person has to be willing to listen and take criticism....which can be hard to not take personally sometimes.

Very much this. Sometimes in divs (I've mostly done cruisers) when I've done stuff less than brilliant that endanger the div and someone says something a little brusque with the content "I kinda told you so" one does have to allow for a little of the teacher's disappointment and not see it as an irreparable blemish to one's ego...

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

On 12/26/2023 at 11:23 PM, Kalishnikat said:

......... The lack of agency in this game gets very tiresome. 

WG: "Working as intended......."

 

On 12/27/2023 at 12:04 AM, Snargfargle said:

I've been on the losing team in some of the best games I've played.

Same

[Wolfswetpaws]

7 hours ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

7 hours ago, YouSatInGum said:

Back to your original question.  If you want to win....div up with other good players.

My question is:  will the good players div up with me?  It will bring down their win rate, right?  What would be their incentive?

To have fun.  🙂 

During many of @Lord_Zath's Twitch streams, players are given the opportunity to join his division for the purposes of "grind assist" and to learn how to become better players.  Also, Lord_Zath offers "replay analysis" sessions during some of his Twitch streams.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the number of people willing to form a division with you @Justin_Simpleton.
Which specific improvement goals are on your agenda?
 

[YouSatInGum]

2 hours ago, I_cant_Swim_ said:

Very much this. Sometimes in divs (I've mostly done cruisers) when I've done stuff less than brilliant that endanger the div and someone says something a little brusque with the content "I kinda told you so" one does have to allow for a little of the teacher's disappointment and not see it as an irreparable blemish to one's ego...

....and then there are players like this....

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by YouSatInGum

[Justin_Simpleton]

41 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the number of people willing to form a division with you @Justin_Simpleton.
Which specific improvement goals are on your agenda?
 

Mostly I'm trying to improve on finding someone who will use audible to communicate with me.  Using chat msgs will not work for me because typing legibly is time consuming and I can't see the mini-map while using it.  Why do I always have to be the student?  When can I be a peer?

 

[Pugilistic]

On 12/26/2023 at 7:36 PM, ArIskandir said:

First mistake is equating PR to good play... You can farm PR while throwing a match.

So much this. 

On 12/26/2023 at 5:23 PM, Kalishnikat said:

A 2493 personal rating over the last 300 or so games is apparently not enough to win consistently. I just stay at slightly over 52% with many losing streaks thrown in for good measure. It seems you do all you can to play well but it doesn't translate into "winning." Good play cannot overcome terrible MM. I've lost count the number of times I've been #1 on the losing team. The lack of agency in this game gets very tiresome. 

When you get five or six teams in a row with team WR <47% and the opponents are >50, youre not going to carry often, and this MM differential happens in clusters. We tend to remember those streaks much more than a 11-0 streak with good teams full of bluenicum divs. 

Edit: My statement assumes playing solo. I think the main way to weight the scales for WR is a 3-div of very strong players. Usually these folks are also strong solo, but I have seen exceptions, one lately was 53% solo but a Unicum in divisions; hes playing with some strong people. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Pugilistic