CV Skill Gap as Big as Ever

[Itwastuesday]

11 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Let's pit you against one other player in a 1v1. You're in a Yamato. Your opponent is in a Shimakaze. They can be 6km away from you and never be seen, and next thing you know you're facing a 15-torpedo spread. And if you're not devstruck at once, you face another a couple of minutes later. And so on until you're dead. Yet you never see him because he never fires his guns, so you can't shoot at him. Or maybe it's not a 1v1 and he's spotting for the Vermont behind a landmass who then devstrikes you with a gun broadside.

How is this any different from being attacked by a carrier? 

Ah, so if you engineer a weird unfair scenario, it's as fair as carriers. Got it. 

4 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

While this is true, the whole CORE of the gameplay in World of Warships is about certain ships having overwhelming advantages over other ships.

Battleships with overmatch facing cruisers.

Destroyers with really good concealment.

Etc

Etc

Etc

Complaining only about CVs with this argument really highlights that the problem is with your expectations...not WG.

If you expect that every ship class is going to be equally pitted against every other ship class...

This is not ever going to be that game.

Etc etc etc instead of what has an overwhelming advantage on carriers which themselves have that advantage against artillery ships. Ok. 

[Snargfargle]

11 minutes ago, Type_93 said:

Exactly. I just think the anti-CV sentiments are unfounded. CVs are a nuisance. Sure, a unicum CV player can have massive impact, but they will have that same impact, if not more, in other ships as well. 

Exactly. Take this game I was in just now. Our CV player was great but he couldn't carry the team because the other team was simply better overall, and their Alaska B was a killer. Their CV did get two kills but they were low-health pick-offs in the late game.

[Itwastuesday]

3 minutes ago, torino2dc said:

By that logic, any ship that uses vision asymmetries to its advantage is also 'dishonest'.

Not in a team setting, the vision game and the risks involved are a core part of WoWs. Certainly you can end up in situations where you can't do anything, but default carrier gameplay doesn't let the enemy fight back.

[Asym]

9 hours ago, Kalishnikat said:

Our team..Ranger 148 games played, 30k avg damage in CV. Red team Serov CV Main 4500 games played 76k avg damage in CV.  Ours ends up with no kills and #8 in the lineup. Theirs 3 kills and #1. The game's outcome was decided before it even started. The only class where one ship has so much sway in the game. Back to the rework days they claimed they wanted to address the skill gap in CVs. They failed. Just another broken aspect of a broken class that only serves to piss people off. 

Again, "dissimilar weapons systems" simply make play on small maps "problematic" (considering planes can cross the map 10x as fast as the fastest DD.....)  Subs, if played right simply won't be seen.....  We don't have SONAR....  And, here we are again, wondering why they created a single Ship class that can "Rule the all...."

Add in that there are no skill qualifications to own Carriers and...............this ^^^^^  above is gonna happen all of the time .

5 hours ago, torino2dc said:

Whenever I see complaints like these, I swap the classes and imagine what people would say.

"Our team..New Mexico 148 games played, 30k avg damage in BB. Red team Warspite BB Main 4500 games played 76k avg damage in BB.  Ours ends up with no kills and #8 in the lineup. Theirs 3 kills and #1."

I doubt it would provoke such a negative reaction. Certainly not enough to merit a forum post. But why? Functionally speaking, both instances saw a veteran player exploit the fact that their opposite number was weak (and their own ship was strong) to hard carry their team. 

Is it somehow 'more honest' when a BB does it? Or is it because CVs are just more un-fun to play against? 

The difference is the "scope of Influence"....  BB's are LOS ships.  Their world is to the horizon.  Very few can shoot beyond the Horizon and then, only with spotter "AIRCRAFT"......  see where that leads you...  

And, in truth, "skill and experience" are part of the problem when PVP blows up to make the mode a hot mess of Stomps and one sided wins.....

23 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Let's pit you against one other player in a 1v1. You're in a Yamato. Your opponent is in a Shimakaze. They can be 6km away from you and never be seen, and next thing you know you're facing a 15-torpedo spread. And if you're not devstruck at once, you face another a couple of minutes later. And so on until you're dead. Yet you never see him because he never fires his guns, so you can't shoot at him. Or maybe it's not a 1v1 and he's spotting for the Vermont behind a landmass who then devstrikes you with a gun broadside.

How is this any different from being attacked by a carrier? 

A Shimy operates on the surface of the water and travels 1/4 the speed of an Aircraft.  Now, his torpedoes are 5x that of the planes;  but, he has to "see, acquire, position and sometimes close" with the enemy to be effective.  And, a Shimy inside of secondary range, with a good BB Skipper gets "one chance..." or oblivion.  Planes simply regenerate....because, the escape the battlefield and that DD simply can't....

Planes on the other hand have 'all of the options' against a Yamy.  All of the options;  because, they operate outside of LOS and are not constrained to the surface of the water nor deterred by Islands....   Planes have all of the advantages and have reduced damage capabilities.  And, their best weapon is spotting....  Where they invite everyone in gun range to feast !  Ships only operate and spot to the horizon.   With AA being a "joke of a joke," that makes the game even more of a potential "One Ship to Rules Them All....." situation.

Skill and experience in a mature game skew the demographics left and, without a skill based MM, "you reap what you sow...."  Great games with stable populations have more of a Random Distribution of skill where there are more Average players than new players or veterans.....  That 69% in the middle.  You know, if you are paying attention, Stomps are the symptoms of a skill disparity and without a SBMM to balance that shift left, the game "eats its own" further shifting left and speeding up the rate of Stomps....

53 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Welcome to the naval combat arcade WG is selling.

This will never be a nicely balanced and fair arcade shooter.

If that's what you are looking for, this isn't the game for you.

The problem here is our expectations...WG has been abundantly clear about the game they are selling us.

So true and the reality of the "Tale of Mature Games"......it takes really intuitive staff to "see" that money is better made via quality of the content than the volume of the content that relies on gimmicks via-a'-vis skill and a wholesome, well thought out game....  JMO.

[clammboy]

46 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Let's pit you against one other player in a 1v1. You're in a Yamato. Your opponent is in a Shimakaze. They can be 6km away from you and never be seen, and next thing you know you're facing a 15-torpedo spread. And if you're not devstruck at once, you face another a couple of minutes later. And so on until you're dead. Yet you never see him because he never fires his guns, so you can't shoot at him. Or maybe it's not a 1v1 and he's spotting for the Vermont behind a landmass who then devstrikes you with a gun broadside.

How is this any different from being attacked by a carrier? 

Because it took skill and risk to set up that play and I dont mind that hats off to the player. He's in tiny ship with no health and if he misses he's dead he took risks the differences are endless. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by clammboy

[Ensign Cthulhu]

6 minutes ago, Asym said:

A Shimy operates on the surface of the water and travels 1/4 the speed of an Aircraft.  Now, his torpedoes are 5x that of the planes;  but, he has to "see, acquire, position and sometimes close" with the enemy to be effective.  And, a Shimy inside of secondary range, with a good BB Skipper gets "one chance..." or oblivion.  Planes simply regenerate....because, the escape the battlefield and that DD simply can't....

Oh please.

The Shima simply has to remain undetected and the secondaries won't fire. Again: he can get more than close enough to the Yamato without being detected to let loose an unavoidable salvo. IF THE YAMMY DOESN'T SEE HIM, WHAT CAN THE YAMMY DO?

[Ensign Cthulhu]

5 minutes ago, clammboy said:

Because it took skill and risk to set up that play and I dont mind that hats off to the player. He's in tiny ship with no health and if he misses he's dead he took risks the differences are endless. 

But the Shima can do a one-shot and the CV cannot.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

50 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

Etc etc etc instead of what has an overwhelming advantage on carriers which themselves have that advantage against artillery ships. Ok. 

Exactly.

WG does not care about actual game balance like you do...AND they have been very upfront about it.

You need to decide if this game is fun for you as is or with MINOR / WG wanted tweaks...

...or if you want to find another game.

I'm much happier now that I play WoWs for what it is...a silly meme arcade. When I want actually balanced gameplay, I play other games.

[WaveRider]

1 minute ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

But the Shima can do a one-shot and the CV cannot.

But the CV doesn't really need to have that one shot, because he can have multiple waves of attacks? And with each attack, any other ship in range also gets the opportunity to attack the DD as well. Don't get me wrong - it's the same for every ship type (if spotted and in range), but not every ship type has the low HP that DDs tend to have. Hence the survivability of DDs being the lowest across all servers for multiple years.

It is also a fact that a Shima needs a successful one shot, because if it fails - there are many minutes before it can have another attempt.

I don't have any particular love a ship type nowadays, but it is simple to see the best advantage a DD has is stealth and to survive to the end game period. If they can do that, then they can be the game changers. If a CV plays well and helps take out enemy DDs earlier, then their team will likely stand a better chance of winning. The only issue is, that part of the DD strength (the stealth) is always under threat - with spotters, fighters, CV planes, radar, hydro, Radio Location, other low visibility DD gunships and of course the maps themselves are pretty well known.

Of course the above anti-stealth mechanics aren't a blanket that is present throughout the whole of the game, but as @clammboy states, if a DD has lasted to end game - through all the challenges listed - then they're a good player (or lucky). <O

[clammboy]

21 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

But the Shima can do a one-shot and the CV cannot.

Ensign I dont hate CV's they were here when I started playing in 2016. I was just trying to point out why a lot of people do not like CV's and CV players. And how people preceive the differences between the two ways you can die as some people posted

The Shima took a chance made a nice play if he misses I have chance to kill him and he's probably spotted now and in big trouble.

The CV if he misses he's right back with the second wave if misses again then he's back 20 seconds later. He's 28k away behind a rock people have a hard time dealing with this . Dead is dead one shot or 3 air strikes one after another.

It's kind of simple to understand how they feel whether it's right or wrong.

Edited December 21, 2023 by clammboy

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 minute ago, WaveRider said:

But the CV doesn't really need to have that one shot, because he can have multiple waves of attacks? And with each attack, any other ship in range also gets the opportunity to attack the DD as well. Don't get me wrong - it's the same for every ship type (if spotted and in range), but not every ship type has the low HP that DDs tend to have. Hence the survivability of DDs being the lowest across all servers for multiple years.

It is also a fact that a Shima needs a successful one shot, because if it fails - there are many minutes before it can have another attempt.

I don't have any particular love a ship type nowadays, but it is simple to see the best advantage a DD has is stealth and to survive to the end game period. If they can do that, then they can be the game changers. If a CV plays well and helps take out enemy DDs earlier, then their team will likely stand a better chance of winning. The only issue is, that part of the DD strength (the stealth) is always under threat - with spotters, fighters, CV planes, radar, hydro, Radio Location, other low visibility DD gunships and of course the maps themselves are pretty well known.

Of course the above anti-stealth mechanics aren't a blanket that is present throughout the whole of the game, but as @clammboy states, if a DD has lasted to end game - through all the challenges listed - then they're a good player (or lucky). <O

It's not hard to last to the end game in a DD...

You just have to play more conservatively in the early game.

The longer the game goes, the easier it is to stay alive.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 minute ago, clammboy said:

I was just trying to point out why a lot of people do not like CV's and CV players.

It is illogical to hate CV players...they did not design the game and have no influence on how the game is run and balanced.

If you are hating CV players, then the toxicity problem is YOU.

[WaveRider]

Just now, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

It's not hard to last to the end game in a DD...

You just have to play more conservatively in the early game.

The longer the game goes, the easier it is to stay alive.

The statistics across all servers indicate different.

I agree to a certain degree. It is likely one sides DDs - if they outlast the other sides DDs, can make it to end game - usually because the early loss of DDs on one side can drastically impact the game. But even when you consider this scenario happening, the fact DDs do so badly with survival seems to indicate it is harder to survive in a DD more than any other ship type. <O

 

[clammboy]

Just now, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

It is illogical to hate CV players...they did not design the game and have no influence on how the game is run and balanced.

If you are hating CV players, then the toxicity problem is YOU.

I agree was just stating my opinion on why some people hate the players personaly I dont feel that way about Cv players . CV's I am on the fence about but I'm not going to complain about them like I said they have always been here.

[WaveRider]

6 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

It is illogical to hate CV players...they did not design the game and have no influence on how the game is run and balanced.

If you are hating CV players, then the toxicity problem is YOU.

He literally stated in his last post that he doesn't hate CVs:

8 minutes ago, clammboy said:

Ensign I dont hate CV's they were here when I started playing in 2016. I was just trying to point out why a lot of people do not like CV's and CV players. And how people perceive the differences between the two ways people posted

 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

9 minutes ago, WaveRider said:

The statistics across all servers indicate different.

I agree to a certain degree. It is likely one sides DDs - if they outlast the other sides DDs, can make it to end game - usually because the early loss of DDs on one side can drastically impact the game. But even when you consider this scenario happening, the fact DDs do so badly with survival seems to indicate it is harder to survive in a DD more than any other ship type. <O

 

That's a skill issue, not a ship class design issue.

[WaveRider]

Just now, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

That's a skill issue, not a ship class design issue.

A skill issue?

In what way is the person that plays BBs, Cruisers, CVs, Subs any less skilful than when they play a DD (it is the same person)? I would suggest they are not - but rather the threats against the DD merely results in them being more vulnerable and not doing as well.

I mean, one ship type had to have the lowest survivability, but I don't believe this is down to skill alone (are you indicating those that play DDs do nothing else?) - I believe it is more down to the game mechanisms, vulnerability of the DD (HP) and how people's skills equate to playing in those conditions with a more vulnerable ship. <O

[kriegerfaust]

I do not know if carriers are just weaker on console but i don't find them to be grossly overpowered as some seem to find them.  Take a ship draw a 5K circle around it, now look around if you find another ship draw another 5K circle around it.  Any point those two circles cross is a kill zone for carrier planes.  Now imagine the nightmare of three ships in the same area crossing through multiple kill zones.  A single ship is dead meat for any carrier pilot with half a brain, as long as it is slow and does not turn and is a battleship.

A cruiser or destroyer moving and turning might as well be Jesus for all the chance of hitting it with any bomb but skip.  Torpedoes have a good chance of hitting if you use enough of them.  Carriers have low risk of engagement kif you spend the game at the back of the map but that means long travel times.  battleships can do the same thing stay at maximum range and farm hit, not as long but shells don't take a minute to reach the target, get shot down or come with limited use.

A carrier can turn around and romance the boundary of the map for the entire game not risking his ship.  But they are going to have a low score as carriers don't get caps, carriers fear destroyers.  You all complain about carriers but what percentage even make it into the top third of the team.  I play carriers and farm battleships for damage, unless i get over a 100k in damage i am in the middle to bottom third.  Carriers also have a far lower chance to citadel, set fires or flood a ship, my bleeding heart no carriers at least on console are balanced at least to me they are.

I think the trouble is that for most ships fighting a carrier is very passive at least in offence.  AA guns shoot at planes you may pop a special or launch a plane but for the most part passive.  You can dodge but if you are fighting another ship but you might dart right into showing broadside.  Maybe orders would help, like all gunner's direct fire to the port side of the ship or all gunners increase fire.  Silly i know but how common are double carrier strikes on the same ship

The fact is the bast carrier tactic is to target a stray ship, the best anti-carrier tactic is to stay in a group or division. You know who truly hate carriers.  You know who truly hate carriers, fire-bugs light cruisers that romance islands in long term relationships with a single island.  Why because there lobbing shells while staying in one place does not work against them.  A carrier will sweep around and hit them from the side doing massive damage.

Destroyers, only a handful of times has anyone ever bothered me with a carrier when i am in a destroyer.  Cruiser, Not if i have at least one buddy with me.  Ok battleship commanders find another battleship or cruiser you won't be lock but well it can be worse.  The other key is your own carrier i cannot count the number of planes i lost to a halfway aggressive carrier.  On the other hand i can't count the number of carriers because my team was going right left and center then suddenly all went left or right having the team run smack into me.

[mashed68]

The simple truth is CV's are overpowered, but more so then anything else, there is no game play with them. The only person playing a game is the CV player. The ship getting attacked, 99% of the time, has no way to fight back. I don't know about you guys, but just turning, accelerating, and stopping my ship [anti CV tactics] is not game play or fun to me. At all. I came here to shoot guns. But my AA guns are completely out of my control, so yet again, no game play with cv's. Surface ships are just targets. 

Sure, DD's can do something similar with stealth torps. But at least when they do get spotted, they are in range for me to counter attack, or run away from. Not so with cv's. 

[Asym]

1 hour ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Oh please.

The Shima simply has to remain undetected and the secondaries won't fire. Again: he can get more than close enough to the Yamato without being detected to let loose an unavoidable salvo. IF THE YAMMY DOESN'T SEE HIM, WHAT CAN THE YAMMY DO?

We disagree on this for sure....  I am only stating what I believe happens everyday....  I'm not saying "get rid of anything" because that simply makes no sense...!!!

But. the hard truth is that Carriers, skipper by a skill player, is "one ship to rule them all " and, without any serious AA, that is what happens.

Again, consider that Carriers are NOT in KOTS....   Because, "one ship" would determine who has a better chance of winning....  You can not contest this fact;.....because, it is the real reason why we are having this entire conversation.

Now, ever wonder why Carriers and how they operate are being discussed the past few weeks?  Why spotting is being discussed for the um-teenth time.  Because, our host wants to sell more carriers AND get them into KOTS somehow without that community quitting.

Yes, I have blapt'd a lot of BB's over the years....  But, when playing in PVP, the great carrier skippers took exception to me blapping their team mates and insured I was the #1 spotted DD (in an IJN DD) on the map....  I was often the last ship alive in very close matches and...........the carrier simply, out of hand, killed my Fabuki......because, I could not fight back and the carrier "heals" and all I could do is die..........couldn't out run them, couldn't hide from them ........

Edited December 21, 2023 by Asym

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

34 minutes ago, WaveRider said:

A skill issue?

In what way is the person that plays BBs, Cruisers, CVs, Subs any less skilful than when they play a DD (it is the same person)? I would suggest they are not - but rather the threats against the DD merely results in them being more vulnerable and not doing as well.

I mean, one ship type had to have the lowest survivability, but I don't believe this is down to skill alone (are you indicating those that play DDs do nothing else?) - I believe it is more down to the game mechanisms, vulnerability of the DD (HP) and how people's skills equate to playing in those conditions with a more vulnerable ship. <O

How difficult is it to stay outside of surface detection range of any ships and > 10 - 12 km away from where radar cruisers were spotted?

That's not hard at all.

Plus, if you turn off your AA...it's even possible to hide from or dodge planes. Plus planes don't spot through your smoke.

It is NOT HARD to avoid being spotted in a DD. The trouble with most people is that they don't have the patience to wait and want to be going in taking all kinds of stupid risks.

It's a skill issue.

[WaveRider]

3 minutes ago, mashed68 said:

The simple truth is CV's are overpowered, but more so then anything else, there is no game play with them. The only person playing a game is the CV player. The ship getting attacked, 99% of the time, has no way to fight back. I don't know about you guys, but just turning, accelerating, and stopping my ship [anti CV tactics] is not game play or fun to me. At all. I came here to shoot guns. But my AA guns are completely out of my control, so yet again, no game play with cv's. Surface ships are just targets. 

Sure, DD's can do something similar with stealth torps. But at least when they do get spotted, they are in range for me to counter attack, or run away from. Not so with cv's. 

Hi @mashed68 <O

I'm not sure CVs are overpowered per se, but rather they can have a massive impact on the game, if the players are good and use the CVs strength in assisting with taking out enemy DDs at the start of a game. That type of imbalance can be crippling to a team. 

Not the CV players fault, but more the mechanics that allow a good player to make such an impact. A game without CVs could see a good DD players do the same (take out enemy DDs quickly), but then I guess you do tend to have more DDs and then have the other mechanics (such as radar etc to deal with). 

 

I guess that is why WG are trying new mechanics out(?)

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

13 minutes ago, mashed68 said:

The simple truth is CV's are overpowered, but more so then anything else, there is no game play with them. The only person playing a game is the CV player. The ship getting attacked, 99% of the time, has no way to fight back. I don't know about you guys, but just turning, accelerating, and stopping my ship [anti CV tactics] is not game play or fun to me. At all. I came here to shoot guns. But my AA guns are completely out of my control, so yet again, no game play with cv's. Surface ships are just targets. 

Sure, DD's can do something similar with stealth torps. But at least when they do get spotted, they are in range for me to counter attack, or run away from. Not so with cv's. 

Yes, the rudder is your best defense that you have control over.

Also, yes, even CV mains have pointed out that the whole AA game is actually controlled by the CV player.

WG remains unaware because they systematically ignore feedback that does not agree with their own view of the game.

[WaveRider]

7 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

How difficult is it to stay outside of surface detection range of any ships and > 10 - 12 km away from where radar cruisers were spotted?

That's not hard at all.

Plus, if you turn off your AA...it's even possible to hide from or dodge planes. Plus planes don't spot through your smoke.

It is NOT HARD to avoid being spotted in a DD. The trouble with most people is that they don't have the patience to wait and want to be going in taking all kinds of stupid risks.

It's a skill issue.

Staying outside the 10-12km is relatively easy. I guess that would be the end of the story if that were the only objective, but it isn't is it.

Enemy DDs and the aircraft we've been talking about in the thread don't really allow you to keep the required distance as easily as you seem to indicate - again, probably why the survivability is the worst of all ship types.

I would also say if you were going to the extent of staying so well hidden from normal ships and radar and DDs and aircraft etc - the question may then come up: exactly what position are you in and are you actually helping your team?

Edited December 21, 2023 by WaveRider

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

6 minutes ago, WaveRider said:

Staying outside the 10-12km is relatively easy. I guess that would be the end of the story if that were the case, but it isn't is it.

Enemy DDs and the aircraft we've been talking about in the thread don't really allow you to keep the required distance as easily as you seem to indicate - again, probably why the survivability is the worst of all ship types.

I would also say if you were going to the extent of staying so well hidden from normal ships and radar and DDs and aircraft - the question may then come up: exactly what position are you in and are you actually helping your team?

That's the rub, isnt it?

It's not fun just waiting.

I once had a game in my Friesland where the enemy had radar cruisers and a Paolo Emilio...but no planes.

My captain was new and didn't have concealment expert yet...and I knew my flank would die to the Yolo Emilio...so the first half of the game was spotting for my battleships and big ships...while playing positioning cat and mouse with the Emilio to prevent him from Yoloing.

Neither of us were spotted (the fight was RPF only as both of us had it equipped) until he got bored and YOLOed into my hydro and died.

I then resumed spotting.

With the game finally in hand I GOT BORED and picked a fight with a ship that sunk me in garbage time.

DDs in a spotting heavy environment can be boring. Welcome to not having every game be set up for you to dominate.

It's a skill issue if you are playing DD and have trouble with spotting.

When facing enemy planes, you have to be EVEN MORE conservative. Which makes it even more boring.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Daniel_Allan_Clark