Fan additions and Existing ships of the (Commonwealth / Pan-Asia) post ships you want to see added to these or any of the smaller factions

[kriegerfaust]

India-Pakistan-Bangladesh - Canada - Australia
A Class - HMCS Saguenay- HMCS Skeena (D59) (A class)
Aubrietia-class sloop - HMIS Cornwallis - HMS Lychnis 
Black Swan Class - INS Sutlej -  INS Jumna - INS Narbada - INS Godavari
Battle Class - HMS Gabbard - PNS Badr - HMS Cadiz - PNS Khaibar
C Class - HMS Chinvbalrous - PNS Taimur - HMS Charity - PNS Shah Jahan HMCS - Assiniboine - HMCS Fraser - HMCS Ottawa - HMCS Restigouche - HMCS St. Laurent 
HMCS Buxton - HMCS St. Croix - HMCS St. Francis (I93) (Clemson class)
County Class - HMAS Australia (D84) - Kent/County Class - HMAS Canberra (D33) - London/County Class - HMS Shropshire
Crown Class - HMCS Uganda - HMCS Quebec - HMCS Crescent - HMCS Crusader (R20) (Cr class)
D Class - HMCS Kootenay - HMCS Margaree 
HMCS Gatineau (H61) (E class)
HMCS Qu'Appelle - HMCS Saskatchewan (H70) (F class)
HMCS Ottawa (H31) (G class)
HMCS Chaudière (H99) (H class)
Fiji-class light cruiser - HMS Nigeria - INS Mysore
Gearing Class - USS Wiltsie - PNS Tariq/PNS Nazim - USS Epperson - PNS Taimur
Grimsby Class - HMIS Indus - HMIS Jumna - HMIS Sutlej
O Class - HMS Onslow - PNS Tippu Sultan HMS Offa - PNS Tariq, HMS Onslaught - PNS Tughril HMS Oribi - PNS Gayret
Leander Class - HMS Achilles - INS Delhi (C74) - HMAS Sydney (D48) - HMAS Perth (D29) - HMAS Hobart (D63)
Minotaur Class - HMCS Ontario (C53)
Leopard Class - HMS Lynx - BNS Abu Bakr / HMS Jaguar - BNS Ali Haider
N Class - HMAS Napier (G97) - HMAS Nepal (G25) - HMAS Nestor (G02) - HMAS Nizam (G38) - HMAS Norman (G49)
Prince Class - HMCS Prince David - HMCS Prince Henry - HMCS Prince Robert 
Q Class - HMAS Quiberon (G81) - HMAS Quickmatch (G92)
River Class - HMIS Tir (K256) - HMIS Tamar (K262 - HMIS Neza (K239) - HMIS Shamsher - HMIS Dhanush (K265) - HMIS Kukri (K243) - HMIS Hooghly (K330)
R-class destroyer - INS Rajput - HMS Rotherham - HMS Redoubt - INS Ranjit - HMS Raider - INS Rana
HMAS Stuart (formerly HMS Stuart) was a British Scott-class flotilla leader
HMCS Annapolis - HMCS Columbia - HMCS Niagara - HMCS St. Clair (I65) (Wickes class)
HMCS Athabaskan - HMCS Athabaskan - HMCS Cayuga - HMCS Haida - HMCS Huron - HMCS Iroquois - HMCS Micmac - HMCS Nootka (R96) (Tribal class)
HMCS Algonquin - HMCS Sioux (R64) (V class)
HMAS Adelaide (1918) - HMS Caldwell - HMS Chelsea - HMS Georgetown - HMCS Hamilton - HMS Leamington - HMS Mansfield - HMS Montgomery - HMS Richmond - HMS Roxborough (I07) (Town class)
W Class - HMAS Voyager - HMAS Waterhen (D22)

The British were one of the largest naval powers for centuries in fact for a long time the most powerful until dethroned by the US.  Its many colonies led to its ships flying under many flags in many wars.  As of yet the commonwealth has only ten ships in game no doubt with more in testing or future ships yet to be added.  I looked through the many navies that served along the British for ships they used some may already be in game some might be too weak.  The Commonwealth deserves better if you want to add any ships i missed feel free, if you want to point out ships that don't belong or are already in game go ahead.  Still be polite and try to add something to the discussion other than how could you be so ----- to add that or that is already in the game you -----.  

Edited December 20, 2023 by kriegerfaust

[invicta2012]

Hello old chap! I just posted a Commonwealth DD line on another thread.  If I may be so bold, then:

You've not listed ships like HMS Anzac (a DD leader), Anzac II (Australian Battle class, which was a major change from the British Battles), or post-war ships like Perth/Hobart II, all of which are interesting and worthy of being in the game, having a suitable DD armament of guns and torpedoes. Sadly ships like the Leopard class aren't going to cut it - 24 knots and only 4 guns on a small displacement wouldn't be much fun at high tiers and anachronistic at lower tiers. 

[Ensign Cthulhu]

30 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

post-war ships like Perth/Hobart II,

Hobart II is a guided missile DDG, and people are going to flip their ship. (I believe her missile armament could be balanced for the game, but that's a different discussion.)

[invicta2012]

35 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Hobart II is a guided missile DDG, and people are going to flip their ship. (I believe her missile armament could be balanced for the game, but that's a different discussion.)

I believe the Perth class were fitted for Harpoon in the 70s but it was never carried on the ship, so it could happily be in game without it. ASW or AA missiles are easily balanced. The important thing is that she is within the game's time period, would appear at the same Tier as an existing 50s ship (Forrest Sherman), and actually served with other Tier Xs such as the Daring class within her own national fleet.

I would also add: The community condemns copy/paste ships but then freaks out at the next generation. How do we want the game to develop if we can't find a way to make these later ships work?

Edited December 19, 2023 by invicta2012

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

34 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Hobart II is a guided missile DDG, and people are going to flip their ship. (I believe her missile armament could be balanced for the game, but that's a different discussion.)

People are already flipping ships for subs and CVs.

At this point, I think WG should just head into the missile age rather than stagnating where we are now.

[Nevermore135]

We’re about to get ten more Commonwealth ships, with many of them representing ships that were built and served:

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/499

[kriegerfaust]

HMNZS Bellona C63 Dido class - HMNZS Black Prince C81Dido class - HMS Royalist was a Bellona-class (improved Dido-class) 
HMS Philomel, later HMNZS Philomel, was a Pearl-class cruiser.

Thanks for the link Nevermore, it is good to see some more commonwealth ships

[Ensign Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, invicta2012 said:

I believe the Perth class were fitted for Harpoon in the 70s but it was never carried on the ship, so it could happily be in game without it. ASW or AA missiles are easily balanced. The important thing is that she is within the game's time period, would appear at the same Tier as an existing 50s ship (Forrest Sherman), and actually served with other Tier Xs such as the Daring class within her own national fleet.

I would also add: The community condemns copy/paste ships but then freaks out at the next generation. How do we want the game to develop if we can't find a way to make these later ships work?

 

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

People are already flipping ships for subs and CVs.

At this point, I think WG should just head into the missile age rather than stagnating where we are now.

I agree with you both. 

I suspect Hobart's missile suite would ultimately be welcomed given that as she served in Vietnam, it is exclusively anti-aircraft and anti-submarine. 

[kriegerfaust]

Asian Ships (For Pan-Asian)

ships already in game 
Phra Ruang — Thailand - HMS Radiant 
Shenyang - Minekaze-class destroyer Namikaze - Republic of China Navy
Fushun - Soviet Gnevny-class destroyer Rezkiy - People's Republic of China Navy
Loyang - Benson-class destroyer - Republic of China (Taiwan) 
Fenyang - Akizuki-class destroyer - Republic of China Navy in 1949.
Chung Mu - Fletcher-class destroyer (USS Erben, DD-631) - Republic of Korea Navy in 1963
Yueyang -  Allen M. Sumner class (USS Haynsworth, DD-700) - Republic of China (Taiwan) in 1970

Chao Yang-class destroyer (Gearing-class) World War II era DDs later upgraded to DDGs in three batches, Wu Chin I, II and III. All ships in this class were retired by 2005. [1]
Wu Chin I Batch: (Retired in 1980s-1990s)
ROCS Dang Yang DD-11 (ex USN DD-764) [2]
ROCS Fu Yang DD-7 (ex USN DD-838)
Wu Chin II Batch: (Retired in late 1990s)

ROCS Tse Yang DDG-930 (ex USN DD-873)
ROCS Han Yang DDG-915 (ex USN DD-833)
ROCS Kai Yang DDG-924 (ex USN DD-786)
ROCS Lao Yang DDG-920 (ex USN DD-790)
ROCS Sheui Yang DDG-926 (ex USN DD-852)
Wu Chin III Batch: (Retired in 2003–2004)

ROCS Chien Yang DDG-912 (ex USN DD-787)
ROCS Liao Yang DDG-921 (ex USN DD-832)
ROCS Shen Yang DDG-923 (ex USN DD-839)
ROCS Te Yang DDG-925 (ex USN DD-837)
ROCS Yun Yang DDG-927 (ex USN DD-718)
ROCS Chen Yang DDG-928 (ex USN DD-821)
ROCS Shao Yang DDG-929 (ex USN DD-788)

Cannon-class destroyer escorts
ROCN Tai He F-23 (ex USN DE-102)
ROCN Tai Cang F-24 (ex USN DE-103)
ROCN Tai Hu F-25 (ex USN DE-104)
ROCN Tai Zhao F-26 (ex USN DE-112)

Matsu-class destroyers
ROCN Heng Yang (ex IJN Kaede)
ROCN Hui Yang (ex IJN Sugi)
ROCN Xin Yang DD-15 (PF-82, ex IJN Hatsuume)
ROCN Hua Yang (ex IJN Tsuta)

Kagerō-class destroyer
ROCN Dan Yang DD-12 (ex IJN Yukikaze)

Etna class were two cruisers originally ordered in Italy for the Thai Navy 
Arethusa-class cruiser - ROCN Chong Qing (ex RN Aurora)
Thonburi class was a class of coastal defence ships of the Royal Thai Navy. 
Ning Hai (Chinese: 甯海; lit. 'Peaceful Seas') was a light cruiser in the Republic of China Navy (ROCN) 

Edited December 20, 2023 by kriegerfaust

[Project45_Opytny]

Ning Hai has been added into the game and ex-HMS Aurora has been even added twice (her historical self and a hypothetical repaired and refitted version).

You could do better.

[Nevermore135]

4 hours ago, kriegerfaust said:

Arethusa-class cruiser - ROCN Chong Qing (ex RN Aurora)

This ship is actually already in the game - tier V Pan-Asian tech tree cruiser Chungking (an alternate Anglicization of the name). She has another, much older version in tier VI premium Huanghe, which is a hypothetical rebuilt version of the ship after her historical defection to the PRC.

Ning Hai was also introduced as a tier III premium earlier this year (Feb IIRC), but she was locked behind a $50 paywall for non-Steam users.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Nevermore135

[invicta2012]

48 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

Ning Hai was also introduced as a tier III premium early last year (Feb IIRC), but she was locked behind a $50 for non-Steam users.

 WG's way putting two fingers up to collectors.

Edited December 20, 2023 by invicta2012

[kriegerfaust]

I admit to only checking the destroyers as most of the cruisers were at least in legends are paper ships, it is also frustrating as many ships from the commonwealth and pan Asian nations are under armed for any tier, they often have few guns, are underweight, suffer from low caliber guns, and have no or small numbers of torpedoes,  The trouble is a navy require a large enough population, budget and coastline to justify any navy. 

The creation or purchase of a warship is a large investment, simply put many nations have no navy or a brown water navy that while fine in warthunder would not suit this game.  While looking into Vietnam and North Korea i found plenty of ships but to use fishing terms they were a lot of small fries.  The number of navies that can even build what would be called a destroyer is a small fraction of all nations on earth.  That does not save me from being lazy, sorry for not doing my homework and as always thank you for keeping me clean and please enjoy the game, the site and my posts.

[kriegerfaust]

Hai Qi-class cruiser

Chao Ho-class cruiser

Number 64-class cruiser

Number 68-class cruiser

https://old-forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/485527-no68-china-cruiser/

Light cruisers for China from Harima Shipbuilding

As mentioned earlier, in the early 30s, the Japanese shipbuilding firm Harima Shipbuilding & Engineering Co., Ltd proposed a number of warship designs to the Chinese republican government.The largest of the proposed cruisers was a 6000,203-ton "protected" cruiser with 140 mm artillery. However, Harima Shipbuilding also developed a number of light cruiser designs with <> mm rapid-fire artillery.

Such an unusual caliber was used for a simple reason: the 140 mm/50 caliber gun of the Taisho era Model 3 (ie 1914) was the main medium-caliber gun of the Japanese Navy at that time. It was adopted on the basis of theoretical considerations that it would be difficult for short Japanese sailors to handle 45-50 kg shells of the "conventional" 150-155 mm guns.

Despite some "lightness", the 140 mm (14 cm in the Japanese designation system) gun was quite a successful gun, firing a 38-kilogram high-explosive shell at a range of up to 20 kilometers. Its rate of fire was up to 10 rounds per minute.

PROJECT 1005 LIGHT CRUISER

The first project of a light "armored deck" (the term "protected") cruiser with a displacement of 3500,1931 tons was presented by Harima Shipbuilding in <>. Its concept was largely based on the training cruiser Ning Hai laid down by Harima under the Chinese order: in fact, the new cruiser was an enlarged turbine version of the Ning Hai with significantly enhanced armament.

The new cruiser (Project 1005) was to have a length of 128 meters at the waterline, a maximum width of 12.95 meters, and a draft of 4.11 meters. The latter, apparently, was determined on the basis of the traditional need for the Chinese navy to operate on rivers. The displacement was to be 3500 tons.

The strength of the Project 1005 was its armament. The comparatively small ship carried ten (!) 14 cm/50-caliber guns of the 3rd year of the Taisho era in five two-gun turrets. Two turrets were located linearly-elevated in the bow, three more were "pyramided" in the stern, and turret "Y" was elevated.

The gun mounts were probably similar in design to the turrets of the Ning Hai-class training cruisers, which, in turn, were based on the Type A turrets of the experimental Japanese cruiser Yubari. These were non-universal installations with a maximum elevation angle of 30 degrees. Ammunition, according to the project, was supposed to be 120 shells per gun in peacetime, and 160 shells in wartime.

The main caliber guns were controlled using a full-fledged fire control system, which included a 3.5-meter range finder on the bow mast and a fire control center under the armored deck. For combat at night, there were two 75 cm searchlights in remotely controlled installations (included in the central fire control system) on the roof of the bridge and aft superstructure, and two 30 cm signal searchlights, manually controlled.

The anti-aircraft armament of the Project 1005 cruiser consisted of six 8-cm (actually 76-mm, the Japanese “rounded up” the calibers) anti-aircraft guns of the 3rd year model of the Taisho era. Two guns stood on either side of the bridge, and four more were placed in a square around the aft mast. This weapon itself - essentially a field gun of the 1893 model mounted on an anti-aircraft machine - was already an outdated model, but was quite actively used in the Japanese fleet. The ammunition supply was 300 shells per gun in peacetime, and 400 in wartime. For aiming anti-aircraft guns there was a 2-meter range finder on the aft superstructure.

The anti-aircraft armament was complemented by four large-caliber machine guns on the wings of the bridge, with 20,000 rounds per barrel.

Like almost all light cruisers of that time, the Project 1005 cruiser carried torpedo armament. The project provided for two twin-tube 533 mm torpedoes (Japanese 610 mm torpedoes were considered secret at that time and were not offered for export) in the central part of the hull. The ammunition capacity was six torpedoes.

The cruiser was also to carry one Aichi AB-3 seaplane, which was located openly on the deck behind the aft superstructure. There was no catapult; The take-off was carried out from the water. Mounted on the aft mast, a crane placed the seaplane on the water for takeoff, and lifted it aboard after landing.

The cruiser's armor was very light. Defined according to the "good" Japanese tradition in pounds of equivalent weight (40 pounds = 1 square foot of armor steel, 1 inch thick), it had a "box-shaped" layout.

The engine and boiler rooms were protected on the side and top by approximately 25 mm of armored steel; At the front and rear, they were covered by 13 mm traverse bulkheads. The armor of the ammunition magazines was very weak - they were covered by a 13 mm deck from above, and 13 mm bulkheads from the front and rear. The turrets and barbettes themselves were protected by 13 mm of armor.

Only the conning tower had more powerful armor - the thickness of its armor was about 40 mm. The communication pipe, running down from the conning tower, was protected by 25 mm steel.

The cruiser was powered by two Kampon turbines, each with a power of 7,500 hp. The total power reached 15,000 hp, which, according to the designers, was enough (with the chosen hull shape) for a maximum speed of 28 knots. Steam was provided by six mixed coal-oil-fed water-tube boilers (Harima Shipbuilding apparently relied on Chinese requirements for Ning Hai). An oil reserve of 250 tons and coal of 750 tons should have been enough for 6,000 nautical miles (11,000 km) of an economical 12-knot course.

Visualization of project 1005 from Tzoli

Overall, the project looked quite attractive... but overly optimistic. In fact, the Japanese tried to cram one and a half arsenal of the light cruiser Yubari into a volume that was only 500 tons larger. Taking into account the problems that emerged during testing of the Ning Hai training cruiser under construction, the Project 1005 cruiser would almost certainly have been catastrophically overloaded and unsuitable for combat service without a radical reduction in the top weight.

UNSTABLE 30S:

The 1934s were a period of failure for Japanese export shipbuilding in general, and for Harima Shipbuilding in particular. First, in <>, the newest torpedo boat Tomozuru capsized during exercises, into which the overly optimistic designers crammed much more weapons than it could safely carry. A post-incident investigation revealed chilling facts: many Japanese ships had been designed on the basis of completely incorrect assumptions about stability and metacentric altitude.

Then, from China, angry Chinese sailors came directly to the Harima Shipbuilding, and demanded an explanation - what kind of nonsense did the Japanese set up with the training cruiser Ning Hai? Taken over by the Navy in 1933, the ship was brutally overloaded and unstable. The scandal was loud enough that an engineering commission rushed from Japan to China to save the day. All this, to put it mildly, did not contribute to the reputation of Japanese shipbuilders.

The Japanese destroyer Yugiri with a storm-torn bow.

And the "1935th Fleet Incident" in 4 — when Japanese ships at sea on exercises literallyfell apartduring a storm — finally buried the remnants of Japan's reputation. Japanese designs are known as "something that sensible people won't go to sea on." It got to the point that the loyal Japanese satellite Siam ordered two new cruisers not from Japan, but from Italy!

To add insult to injury, a new competitor has emerged in China's arms market: Germany. In the 1930s, the Germans had very good relations with the Chinese, and Germany took an active part in the rearmament and training of the Chinese Republican Army. And as soon as Hitler threw back the Versailles restrictions, German shipbuilding companies immediately came up with their own proposals for light cruisers, destroyers, and submarines for China.

FAST CRUISERS PROJECTS OF 1936:

Trying to catch the “outgoing train” of the Chinese government order, Harima Shipbuilding in 1936 proposed two new projects for a small-displacement high-speed cruiser. 

The new "fast protected cruiser" was a clear reworking of Project 1005 for more realistic capabilities. The displacement was increased to 3600.1 tons, and the width was increased by <> meter, apparently in an attempt to improve the stability of the ship.

Armament has also been relieved. The number of main caliber turrets with 14 cm/50 caliber guns was reduced to four (which saved about 50 tons of weight). On the other hand, the ammunition load was increased: now it was 120 shells per gun in peacetime, and 200 shells per gun in wartime. Although the Japanese Navy already had 155 mm guns, Harima Shipbuilding apparently assumed that the poor Chinese navy would prefer to be unified in caliber with the existing training cruisers.

The number of 8-cm (76-mm) anti-aircraft guns, now located in two pairs at the front and rear of the superstructure, was also reduced to four. The ammunition of anti-aircraft guns was reduced to 200 shells in peacetime, but with the ability to load up to 500 in wartime.

An interesting detail was the reinforcement of torpedo armament. Apparently in an attempt to compensate for the 1/5 reduction in firepower compared to the Project 1005, Harima Shipbuilding engineers replaced the twin-tube 533 mm tubes with three-tube ones. Ammunition now consists of nine torpedoes, six in the tubes, and three for reloading.

Fire control, machine-gun and aircraft armament remained the same. However, the seaplane (Nakajima E8N) was now moved to the superstructure, located behind the cruiser's single funnel. According to the drawings, guides were also provided at the stern for dropping 30 depth charges.

In accordance with the trends of the time, the cruiser's armor was strengthened. The armored "box" that protected the power plant was now protected from the sides with 40 mm plates. The armored deck above the vehicles was 30 millimeters thick. At the front and rear, the engine room was covered by 12 mm traverse bulkheads.

Ammunition magazines were covered with 30 mm plates on top, and 30 mm bulkheads on the front and rear. The armored cabin had armor up to 75 millimeters.

The power plant consisted of two turbogear units, with a capacity of 8000 hp each (16,000 hp in total). Steam was provided by six boilers of the "improved naval type". The speed was defined as "over 25 knots", probably on the order of 28 knots. Four of the boilers were oil-powered, and two were mixed coal-oil. A fuel reserve of 150 tons of oil and 700 tons of coal would be enough for 6000.11 nautical miles (000.12 km) of an economical <>-knot speed.

In the accompanying description of the project, Harima Shipbuilding did not skimp on epithets such as "extraordinarily excellent". However, apparently mindful of its not-so-brilliant previous experience (“Ning Hai”), the company decided to play it safe and prepared another iteration of this project.

The second iteration of the “fast protected cruiser” differed from the previous one only in architectural solutions. The towers and superstructures were moved closer to the center of the hull along the length of the ship. Previously, the single aft superstructure was divided into two parts, creating a gap between the aft mast and the aft elevated tower. The characteristics of the ship remained the same: apparently, the point of such an “alternative layout” was to calm the potential customer’s concerns regarding the cruiser’s stability. 

Two iterations of the project, visualization by Tzoli

The Second Sino-Japanese War, which began in 1937, put an end to further design.

CONCLUSION:

Harima Shipbuilding's light cruiser designs for China as a whole were a clear demonstration of the problem of Japanese shipbuilding: the tendency to cram too much into a hull that is too small. This is especially noticeable on the basis of Project 1005 - in which the designers tried to cram armament normally corresponding to a 6000-7000-ton cruiser! Even at a very moderate speed, the ship's armor and protection are absolutely fantastic for its modest size.

The later projects of 1936 were much closer to reality. The Japanese designers were definitely affected by the disasters of 1934-1935 and the loss of export reputation: their new projects provided for much more modest capabilities. Had they been proposed earlier, in 1931-1932, it is quite possible that the Chinese government might have been tempted by such small but fairly full-fledged cruisers.

The experimental light cruiser Yubari, which apparently inspired export projects.

An interesting detail is that all these essentially projects "creatively developed" the first Japanese attempt to cram in the unspeakable – the light cruiser Yubari, on which the Japanese in 1921-1923 for the first time tried to fit the armament of a full-fledged light cruiser into half its displacement due to radically new solutions (armor integrated into the design, lightweight power plants). In defense of Japanese conservatism, it should be noted that on paper, the Yubari looked really impressive—and in fact proved to be quite useful, despite its many shortcomings—and was also theonlymodern light cruiser in the Japanese navy of the 30s.

Edited December 20, 2023 by kriegerfaust

[kriegerfaust]

Heavy cruiser "Harima Shipbuilding" for China: Project 1006

During the period of relative stability of the Republic of China, which lasted from 1928 to 1937, relations between Japan and China were generally not so bad. The occupation of Manchuria by the Japanese in 1931-1932 was quite reasonably regarded by the Chinese as swine, but since they could not do anything about it, they decided not to spoil relations with their rich and influential neighbor because of it.

At that time, the Chinese elites of the Kuomintang looked at Japan mainly as an example of successful modernization of the country. Japan was also a logical trading partner for China, the closest industrialized power on which China could rely for its own modernization. Therefore, it is not surprising that in parallel with the exchange of mutual accusations, China and Japan in the early 30s were quite successful and cooperated on many levels; For example, naval shipbuilding.

In 1931, the Japanese shipbuilding company Harima Shipbuilding & Engineering Co., Ltd., offered a number of projects to the Chinese navy. Although the firm was not one of the shipbuilding giants, it was still quite a respectable enterprise, existing since the <>th century, and had a solid experience in building civil and military ships. The company's management apparently hoped to get a long-term contract from the Chinese government for a large-scale shipbuilding program, so they developed several projects at once so that customers would have a lot to choose from.

The largest ship proposed by the Harima was a 6000,200-ton "protected" cruiser (the term "protected cruiser" was used in English-language correspondence to refer to an armored cruiser; however, the Harima project also had vertical armor), armed with six 1006 mm guns. Under the designation "Project 1006", several variants were developed - Project 1006A and Project <>B - differing in parts of the secondary armament.

In terms of design, the cruiser was very similar to the British battleships Rodney and Nelson - all the main caliber armament was concentrated in three turrets in the bow, and all auxiliary and anti-aircraft weapons were located in the stern. This configuration was very popular for battleships in the late 1920s, but was rarely used on cruisers (except for cruisers designed as seaplane carriers).

ARMAMENT:

The cruiser's main armament consisted of six 200 mm/50 caliber guns, arranged in pairs in three two-gun turrets. The specific type of gun was not specified, but apparently it was to be 20 cm/50 caliber guns of the 3rd Year Type No. 1 (20 cm/50 (7.9") 3rd Year Type No. 1, similar to those installed on the Japanese heavy cruisers of the Furutaka and Aoba classes. These guns fired a 110 kg armor-piercing shell with a muzzle velocity of 870 m/s.

200 mm Japanese-style turret and superstructure at the memorial in Thailand (memorial to the coastal defense battleship "Thomburi")

All turrets of the main caliber were installed in the bow, turret "B" was located elevated on a high barbette and fired on top of turrets "A" and "C" (the so-called "pyramidal" scheme). The exact type of gun mounts is unknown, but it can be assumed that they would have been C-type turrets - used on Aoba-class cruisers - with a maximum elevation angle of 40 degrees. At the same time, the firing range was 26.7 km.

Ammunition was defined as 100 shells per gun in peacetime (the text of the document is marked "more?"), and 150 shells in wartime. It is interesting to note that the Japanese ammunition capacity of heavy cruisers was up to 120 shells per gun.

To control the fire of the 200 mm guns, the cruiser was to receive a full set of rangefinders and directors, including a 6-meter rangefinder on the bridge roof, and a 3.5-meter rangefinder on the top of the mast. In addition, the elevated "B" turret was to be equipped with its own 6-meter rangefinder. The fire control center was located under the armored deck.

Secondary armament varied depending on the specific project:

* The basic project 1006A provided for a powerful "intermediate" armament of four 140 mm/50 caliber Type 3 guns. These guns were located linearly in two rotating turrets (similar in design to the turrets of the cruiser Yubari) at the stern of the ship. Such powerful secondary armament, in theory, should have made it possible to effectively engage destroyers and light ships of the enemy, as well as maintain the main caliber at a distance of up to 20,000 meters. Ammunition was defined at 200 shells per gun in peacetime, with the ability to load up to 300 in wartime.

The anti-aircraft armament consisted of four 8-centimeter (actually 76-millimeter) Type 3 guns, arranged in a square at the corners of the superstructure. These anti-aircraft guns were, in fact, a licensed copy of the British 12-pounder rapid-fire gun of the 1894 model, installed on an anti-aircraft mount. The ammunition of anti-aircraft guns was determined at 300 shells per gun in peacetime, and 400 in a military situation.

* The modified Project 1006B provided for a more moderate secondary armament of four 120 mm/45 caliber Type 3 guns. The guns were placed in twin shield mounts at the stern of the cruiser. The mounts were not universal, and could not fire at air targets. Ammunition was defined at 200 shells per gun in peacetime, with the ability to load up to 300 in wartime.

The anti-aircraft armament of the Project 1006B was somewhat different in location. Since the 120 mm guns took up less space aft of the cruiser, all four 8 cm/76 mm anti-aircraft guns were located aft of the superstructure. Such a measure, apparently, made it possible to distribute the weight more adequately, since the angles of fire of the anti-aircraft guns in the nose were relatively limited in comparison with the previous project.

An 8 cm (actually 76 mm) anti-aircraft gun.

As for the secondary armament, the description of the project mentions the use of a "simple" fire control system. Apparently, this means that the fire control of auxiliary guns and anti-aircraft guns was not centralized. To control the fire of anti-aircraft artillery, a 2-meter anti-aircraft rangefinder was installed on the aft superstructure.

Light anti-aircraft armament on all projects consisted of four heavy machine guns (caliber not specified, possibly 12.7 mm or 13.2 mm) located on the wings of the bridge. Ammunition was provided at 20,000 rounds per barrel.

The torpedo armament of the Project 1006 cruiser consisted of two built-up torpedo tubes of 533 mm caliber. The cruiser's full ammunition load included nine torpedoes, six in the tubes, and three in reserve for reloading. In addition, rails for depth charges (up to 30 charges) were placed on the aft deck.

RESERVATION:

The exact description of the cruiser's armor is some... Problem. For some unknown reason, Harim's engineers followed the British tradition of designating protection not in terms of the thickness of armor plates, but in pounds (!) of equivalent weight. This strange system was interpreted as follows: a square foot of armor steel 1 inch (24.9 mm) thick was considered to weigh exactly 40 pounds. Apparently, this approach made it easier to calculate the weight of the armor in the ship's design.

The cruiser's armor was made according to the "box" scheme. The engine and boiler rooms were protected on the sides by 50 mm armor plates (80 lbs of equivalent weight) and on the ends by 20 mm traverse bulkheads (30 lbs of equivalent weight). From above, they were covered by a 25 mm armored deck.

The turrets and barbettes of the main caliber guns were protected by 25 mm armor (40 lbs equivalent). Ammunition magazines were covered with 25 mm plates from above, and 20 mm traverse bulkheads from the ends. The steering gears in the stern of the cruiser had similar protection.

The most heavily armored part of the ship was the conning tower. It was protected by 75 mm armor plates (120 lb equivalent weight), with a 40 mm thick roof.

This arrangement of armor fit quite well with the ideas of the "Washington" heavy cruisers of the first generation. By the early 30s, however, the concept had become obsolete. On the other hand, given the relatively small size of the designed cruiser and its powerful armament — the Project 1006 cruiser was supposed to carry armament similar to the heavier Aoba-class cruisers by 2000,<> tons — such weak armor seemed the only possible one.

The cruiser's anti-torpedo protection was apparently limited to watertight compartments.

PROPULSION:

The Project 1006 cruiser was to be equipped with two turbogear units with a capacity of 19,000 hp each. Steam for them was provided by four oil and four mixed (coal-oil) water-tube boilers. Mixed boiler feeding was a bit of an anachronism in the early 30s, but it should be noted that the Japanese Aoba-class cruisers commissioned in 1927 still had mixed boiler feed.

According to the project, the speed of the cruiser was defined as "should be above 28 knots." Probably, in practice, it would be about 29.5-30 knots.

The fuel reserve was determined at 800 tons of oil and 680 tons of coal. With an economical 12-knot speed, the cruiser could travel up to 8000,14800 miles (<>,<> km), which seems to be a bit overpriced.

ACCESSORIES:

For aerial reconnaissance, the Project 1006 cruiser was to carry two small folding seaplanes. Licensed Aichi AB-3s were probably intended for this role.

Seaplanes would have to be stored in a hangar under the aft tripod mast. Rails were laid on the aft deck to facilitate the rollout of the seaplanes from the hangar. Since there was no catapult, the seaplanes were launched only "from the water". A crane placed on the aft mast lowered the seaplane into the water, and after splashdown, retracted it back into the hangar.

In case of a night battle, the cruiser was equipped with three remotely controlled 90-centimeter searchlights: two on the sides on the wings of the bridge, and one on the aft superstructure. The searchlights were connected to the main caliber fire control system. In addition, there were two auxiliary 30 cm signal searchlights, manually operated.

Radio communication equipment included two long-wave and two short-wave transmitters, a radio telephone for communication within sight, and a radio compass.

The cruiser was to carry a standard set of paravane mine protectors to overcome minefields.

The crew, including the possible accommodation of the admiral and his staff, was estimated at 570 men.

CONCLUSION:

In the end, the cruiser 1006 project was not implemented. Although the Chinese government had apparently scrutinized Harima's proposals, the precarious financial situation of the Republic of China—exacerbated by the global economic crisis—simply prevented the implementation of any large-scale naval program. What little money China could spend on armaments, it preferred to spend on the army, which was the basis of the Kuomintang's control over the not-so-stable country.

A modest real of the Chinese fleet of the 30s was the training cruiser Ning Hai.

As a result, the only proposal from the Harima that caught the attention of the Chinese was a small training cruiser (de facto seaworthy gunboat) with a displacement of 2500,1931 tons. In 140, one such cruiser, the Ning Hai, was ordered from Japan, and the second, the Ping Hai, was laid down with Japanese technical assistance at a Chinese shipyard. Although these small, slow ships, armed with six <> mm guns, were not particularly important in terms of combat power, they allowed the Chinese Navy to train personnel for a future rearmament program that never materialized.

EVALUATION:

In general, the Project 1006 cruiser was a very original attempt to create a very compact (6000 tons), but fully armed heavy cruiser. Harima was clearly well aware of the difficult financial situation of the potential customer, and understood that he would be more interested in a budget project than an impressive one.

Image of a Project 1006A cruiser by Tzoli.

Ideally, of course, a project AND budget AND impressive would have the greatest chance. And here, it must be said, the Japanese engineers managed to demonstrate themselves. The ship designed by them had quite adequate armament of a heavy cruiser (six 200 mm guns) with very modest dimensions.

Of course, the engineers had to make some sacrifices in the process. The main complaints about the 1006 project are security and speed:

* In terms of protection, the proposed "box" scheme was a forced decision. There was simply nothing better to cram into the limited displacement. This kind of armor provided more or less adequate protection only from the fire of small-caliber guns. Only the armored deck could provide some protection against the fire of the 200 mm guns of other heavy cruisers.

* In terms of speed, 28+ knots for a cruiser look clearly insufficient. This is almost 4-5 knots below the world standard (32-33 knots). Even if we assume that in practice the cruiser would have developed more, such a low speed still created significant tactical and strategic limitations.

Overall, Type 1006 cruisers would be... an interesting addition to the navy of the Republic of China. Together with other Harima projects (light cruisers with 140 mm artillery, destroyers and coastal destroyers), they could well form the basis of a small but combat-ready fleet. If someone is interested in the question "how would China have developed further if the war with Japan had not started in 1937", then the Type 1006B cruiser looks like a very good starting position)

[kriegerfaust]

Rise of the Dragon:
China’s Dreadnoughts
By Mike Bennighof, Ph.D.
October 2021

http://www.avalanchepress.com/gameRiseoftheDragon_files/Rise_of_Dragon_300.jpgEven as China’s Imperial Navy made great strides toward modernization in the last decades of the 19th Century, repeated disasters wiped out the progress. Naval wars with France in 1884 and Japan in 1894 destroyed many of China’s newest warships, yet the Empire continued to strive to join – and then overtake – the more modern world powers.

Japan’s victory over Russia in 1905 provided even more incentive for Chinese naval modernization. On the one hand, the Japanese had proven that an Asian nation could defeat a European great power. On the other, the growth of Japanese power represented a serious threat to Chinese interests and even independence. For both reasons, the Regent’s advisors urged creation of a modern fleet (actually, three of them, one for each traditional maritime sector).

The first proposal, made in 1907, centered on modern pre-dreadnought battleships and seems to have been sponsored by Japan’s Kawasaki Heavy Industries, which did substantial business in China and already was building gunboats and transports for the Imperial Chinese Navy. The Chinese began planning for three fleets, each built around one battleship, and surveyed new naval bases for them.

Word of Chinese naval revival brought shipyard salesmen from around the world to offer their products, and the Chinese soon realized that Kawasaki’s proposed battleships were already outdated. The world’s leading naval powers were building dreadnoughts, so China would build them too – which also meant greater commissions for those processing the orders, and greater kickbacks for those placing them.

In June 1909 the Regent, Prince Chun Zaifeng, directed his brother Prince Tsai-hsun along with Admiral Sah Chen-ping to implement plans for a modern Chinese navy. The two set off on a world tour, visiting shipyards and gun factories in Britain, France, Germany, Austria-Hungary, Russia, Italy, Japan and the United States. They apparently had a good time everywhere they travelled except for France. They spread new orders for destroyers and training cruisers to most of the countries they had visited, but laid down a directive that no ships would be purchased in France.

Revolution came in 1911, and the Imperial government would eventually be overthrown. The Republic’s leaders did not try to void the contracts for new warships and appear to have had an interest in continuing the program, but the shipyards balked at dealing with the unstable new regime. There would be no Chinese dreadnought program.

That doesn’t prevent us from adding those ships that never were to Great War at Sea. Rise of the Dragon introduces the ships that China would have purchased together with scenarios for their use.

http://www.avalanchepress.com/gameRiseoftheDragon_files/Yu_Ying.jpgChina actually became a player in the world battleship market in 1904, making an offer to buy the two former Chilean battleships Libertad and Constitucion from their British builders, as well as other incomplete ships in a number of nations. It’s not clear for whom the Chinese were fronting, but the ships do not appear to have been intended for their own fleet.

The Royal Navy most definitely did not want the ships, but ended up with them anyway. China could just as easily have been stuck with them. They were smaller than the usual pre-dreadnought, slightly faster but weakly protected and carrying an outdated armament of 10-inch guns (for a higher rate of fire).

http://www.avalanchepress.com/gameRiseoftheDragon_files/Wei_Pao.jpgKawasaki’s proposed pre-dreadnought battleships would have been based on the large armored cruiser Kurama, then under construction at Yokosuka naval dockyard. Japan had only just begun building its own heavy warships, and so far all had been laid down in naval dockyards rather than at private firms. Kawasaki hoped to change that, and the Chinese battleship order would prove the firm’s capabilities. The Chinese ships would have been about the same size as Kurama’s 15,000 tons, but feature better protection.

http://www.avalanchepress.com/gameRiseoftheDragon_files/Hu'ang_Cheng.jpgGermany’s AG Vulkan yard designed a powerful coast-defense ship for Greece, but the Greeks changed their minds and went with a full-sized dreadnought instead. Vulkan offered the design to other nations without any takers, but the ship would have met Chinese requirements before their own switch to a dreadnought preference. Plus Vulkan had a long relationship with the Chinese navy. Huang Ch’eng carries six American-made 14-inch guns and sports good protection, making her a deadly opponent for enemy battleships venturing too close to shore. But this wasn’t what the Chinese wanted any more.

The Chinese program approved in 1909 featured eight new dreadnought battleships and 20 cruisers. The orders would have been spread around the world, reflecting both Chinese policy and the desire of Prince Tsun and Admiral Sah to reward those who had entertained them well. Just which yards would have received the orders is pretty much guesswork, but we can make some education guesses.

http://www.avalanchepress.com/gameRiseoftheDragon_files/Hai_Lung.jpgBethlehem Steel made the strongest push for Chinese business of all the yards visited, and would probably have been the most likely to benefit from the effort. Bethlehem Steel provided the armor, structural steel and guns for the two dreadnoughts built for Argentina by Fore River Shipyard (one was sub-contracted to another firm), and the Chinese Hai Lung class in Rise of the Dragon is built to a similar design. The Rivadavia class carried a dozen 12-inch guns in six dual turrets, with four of the guns in less-efficient wing turrets.

http://www.avalanchepress.com/gameRiseoftheDragon_files/Kiang_Lung.jpgAustria-Hungary’s Stabilimento Technico Triestino also made a good impression on the Chinese delegation, and another Trieste firm, Cantiere Navale, would be the only shipyard to actually receive orders for first-line cruisers (as opposed to training ships) from the Chinese. STT’s chief designer at the time, Siegfried Popper, had designed the Tegetthoff class for the Imperial and Royal Navy while employed by the government, but had come to believe the ships over-armed with a dozen 12-inch guns. They should have had only 10 such guns to reduce hull strain, Popper argued, and he sketched such a ship for the Imperial and Royal Navy. That’s probably the design STT would have offered to the Chinese, and it’s the Austrian-built class included in Rise of the Dragon.

http://www.avalanchepress.com/gameRiseoftheDragon_files/Yang_Wei.jpgAG Vulkan had built the Imperial Chinese battleships lost during the Sino-Japanese War, and continued to have a close relationship with China. Vulkan built the dreadnought Rheinland for the High Seas Fleet, but afterwards built only cruisers and passenger liners for the German Navy (Vulkan built the Greek dreadnought Salamis as well). The yard had the means and desire to build more dreadnoughts, and a Chinese order would have been very welcome. Vulkan sought more Chinese business, and built a number of gunboats. The Yang Wei class of Chinese dreadnoughts is based on the König class of the High Seas Fleet, armed with ten 12-inch guns in five turrets mounted along the centerline.

http://www.avalanchepress.com/gameRiseoftheDragon_files/Yu_Lung.jpgBritain’s Armstrong-Vickers combine also bid strongly for Chinese battleship business, arranging for Admiral Sah to receive a knighthood as part of their bribery campaign. Armstrong and Vickers each built one of the three training cruisers ordered by the Chinese, and likely would have each received a battleship as well had the program advanced to that stage. The British entries for the Chinese fleet are close cousins of the Brazilian Minas Geraes, also built at Armstrong and Vickers. They carry a dozen 12-inch guns, but four of them are in wing turrets.

http://www.avalanchepress.com/gameRiseoftheDragon_files/Hu_Lung.jpgBrazil also laid down a third dreadnought, Rio de Janeiro, but offered her for sale when world coffee prices collapsed. Many naval powers attempted to acquire her (or to buy her before a rival could do so), with Ottoman Turkey emerging with the ship after a flurry of back-room bribes, counter-bribes and general skullduggery. China did not enter the competition, but likely would have had she been in the market for dreadnoughts. And since we’ve already shown the ship in a countless array of national colors in various Great War at Sea supplements (British, Turkish, Brazilian, Greek, Austrian, Italian, Romanian, Japanese, Russian, Confederate, Danish, Dutch, Canadian, Mexican, Spanish, American, French) we can’t miss an opportunity to add one more.

http://www.avalanchepress.com/DragonChinese1.php

[invicta2012]

Interesting stuff - clearly the Avalanche Press games are made by people who know their naval history and can indulge in some informed speculation! Also interesting to see those Japanese cruiser designs- I'm not sure how many Yubari/Agano types I could bear, but Project 1006 looks *very* fun - a weird combo of Nelson and Exeter.

Can I also include these old favourites?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etna-class_cruiser_(1941)

The original design is very similar to Arethusa, although they were later redesigned by Italy as AA cruisers / fast transports with a fairly potent armament - the same 3 x 2 135mm guns as you'll find on the Italian Tier IX DD Adriatico. 

 

[hipcanuck]

On 12/19/2023 at 6:25 PM, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

People are already flipping ships for subs and CVs.

At this point, I think WG should just head into the missile age rather than stagnating where we are now.

If WG started with anti air missiles and ASW homing torps on some DD's it might be an easy way to break the ice. After that, then add surface to surface missiles and finally air to surface missiles.

[invicta2012]

6 hours ago, hipcanuck said:

finally air to surface missiles.

We have several ships in the game (Roma, Warspite, Jervis and the upcoming Uganda) which *were* hit by air to surface missiles during WW2, so it's not outside of the game's current time frame. I believe the US had a functioning ASM system by the end of WW2 as well. All that matters is how they're aimed and what the defensive strategies are. Surface to Surface missiles would be a big step but if they were made as harassment weapons, fired singly and occasionally, with more success against larger targets than a DD driven by a conscious pilot, then they would be fine - a way of giving smaller ships access to the range of a BB.