Asymmetric Battles: Thoughts and Observations

[Frostbow]

Now that I’ve knocked off the steel and new year certificate snowflakes on my ships, I thought it would be timely to look back a bit on how enjoyable and productive Update 12.11 has been, with the availability of Asymmetric Battles.

I have played this mode exclusively since Wargaming implemented the revamped version on the live server. It is just so much fun fighting against a numerically superior AI force that can reasonably fight and can sometimes surprise me with their accuracy.

In terms of ships, I think the big winners here are the German battleships, led by the Schlieffen. Speed, guns, lots of secondary guns, torpedoes, hydro, and Günther Lütjens—all of these combined make for a steadfast ship that can sail into harm’s way, absorb damage, and dish it out with generous interest, before going back to port with a long list of ships sunk. One of my first games was with the Schlieffen, and currently has my highest damage at 502K, and my highest base XP yet, at 2,289.

I've tried other ships, like the Druid (funny how this torpedo-less DD can bully ships like there’s no tomorrow aside from pushing my left mouse button to death), the Montana (always a pleasant battleship to play, with 406s that hit like a truck), Colbert, Atlanta, etc.

Of course, while there were glorious victories, there were also spectacular defeats. I made this mistake of not getting aggressive with my Musashi. This led to our defeat, but then there was not a lot a sniper battleship can do when all that is left facing the bots is you and the CV.

Some observations: it is good the AI no longer has that laser focus on cruisers. In the previous version it felt like it was a death sentence just by bringing a cruiser, as the bots were using laser-guided artillery shells that could consistently crush cruiser citadels.

After capping an area, the bots would turn around, or would move to the center. Other times, they would kite, and when the bots do it, they would just use their rear turrets.

The bots also know when to best cross fire. I’ve been on the receiving end of it numerous times.

Moreover, there is absolutely no feeding frenzy. One of my chief complaints about Co-op is that DDs have the advantage over other ship types due to how watered down the bot AI has been programmed in that mode. Not in Asymmetric Battles. Here, the bots play smart—and the least amount of ‘smart’ in AB is already a huge step-up from the excruciatingly dumb bots that we have been seeing in Co-op for ages. This lack of feeding frenzy allows for all five human players a productive result: a Vermont in Asymmetric Battle can score damage and kill bot ships far more easily compared than in Co-op. And I’ve seen a Paolo Emilio got himself overwhelmed when he thought he could bring himself out of the focus fire from the surviving bot ships.

Of course, if one human fails to do his part, or chooses to play like a bot in Co-op, the remaining players have an even bigger challenge facing them.

However, the flip side of this is the opportunity to shine, and get even bigger returns as the Base XP will be higher, provided of course, the remaining players also know how to play. I had one Asymmetric Battle with the Helena where the 4 players chose to lemming train while I decided to stay at our Base to defend it. I knew I had to, because there was no way they would overrun the enemy base before the bots would do the same to ours. I had to kite away and delay the bots while my teammates decided it was time to return to our base.

Another thing that I particularly like with this mode pertains to the comfort in getting spotting damage and defended ribbons. Combat missions that require either of the two, and in particular defended ribbons, are a pain to get in Co-op because most players would just shoot at the first bot they see. In Asymmetric, I’ve gotten defended ribbons a lot of times, and far more frequently compared to Co-op.

Taken in its entirety, this current version of Asymmetric Battle is way better compared to the previous one, and it is already a huge quality of life improvement for players who want to enjoy playing without the many disadvantages of Co-op. Just by looking at it from the Time Spent in Battle and Base XP earned perspective, it is a very productive mode. For 7-9 minutes of play, I could earn at least twice the amount of Base XP compared to Co-op.

Moving forward, I just hope the folks at the "Ministry of Balance" would make this a permanent mode.

[Asym]

23 minutes ago, Frostbow said:

Now that I’ve knocked off the steel and new year certificate snowflakes on my ships, I thought it would be timely to look back a bit on how enjoyable and productive Update 12.11 has been, with the availability of Asymmetric Battles.

et al.....

Moving forward, I just hope the folks at the "Ministry of Balance" would make this a permanent mode.

Not a chance in Hades mate.  Last time out,  it took four (4) days till the spreadsheet GoD nerfed it....  Now, I've flushed all of my snowflakes via ASB's and if you think that isn't lost on them.........  I don't envision seeing ASB's for a long, long time.

A permanent mode?  Only if they close COOP.

[Frostbow]

31 minutes ago, Asym said:

Not a chance in Hades mate.  Last time out,  it took four (4) days till the spreadsheet GoD nerfed it....  Now, I've flushed all of my snowflakes via ASB's and if you think that isn't lost on them.........  I don't envision seeing ASB's for a long, long time.

A permanent mode?  Only if they close COOP.

Why not? Both are not mutually exclusive. One can exist with the other. Why close Co-op? It still has its dedicated player base. It still has its uses.

[ArIskandir]

Even the prior Asymmetric iteration was a lot of fun. A permanent Asymmetric mode would be a very interesting development. Who knows what the future has in store... 

Edited December 16, 2023 by ArIskandir

[HamptonRoads]

47 minutes ago, Asym said:

Not a chance in Hades mate.  Last time out,  it took four (4) days till the spreadsheet GoD nerfed it....  Now, I've flushed all of my snowflakes via ASB's and if you think that isn't lost on them.........  I don't envision seeing ASB's for a long, long time.

A permanent mode?  Only if they close COOP.

14 minutes ago, Frostbow said:

Why not? Both are not mutually exclusive. One can exist with the other. Why close Co-op? It still has its dedicated player base. It still has its uses.

I agree with Frostbow. 

Random Operations would be closer in similarity than co-op.  The only differences are that you have more limited tiers in RO, than in AB; and Matchmaking in AB in +/-1, where RO you can have any combination of 6-8.  The other major difference is that RO the AI bots are programmed for a specific route with some variations, whereas AB the bots tend to move up and then turn 180 degrees when then meet opposition.  Meaning that in Ops the bots' path can be predicted and intercepted/shot at easier, in AB you have to chase down fleeing bots that tend to zig-zag.

 

[mashed68]

1 hour ago, Asym said:

Not a chance in Hades mate.  Last time out,  it took four (4) days till the spreadsheet GoD nerfed it.... 

They nerfed the income both times its come out. Still fun. Still good bots.

German BC's are almost too easy in this mode. I really enjoy my Massachusettes and using a premium just means more credits overall. 

[Asym]

29 minutes ago, HamptonRoads said:

I agree with Frostbow. 

Random Operations would be closer in similarity than co-op. 

This is where I will support that,  ASB will only be a "once in a while mode"..... 

Yes, Random battles and ASB's are very, very close;  and,  that is the Problem:  ASB's draws PVP players away from Random Battles.  Operations are PVE aren't very close to ASB's IMO - having played thousands of matches.... 

It's the word "asymmetrical" that drives Random battles (PVP) and, ASB's maybe PVE by design BUT, a 3:1 deployment makes them far more asymmetrical than Operations and a lot closer to Randoms (PVP).  Now, if you are skeptical, ask yourself:  "why were ASB's nerfed four (4) days after they were implemented>?"  I took several screen shots because I did NOT recognize the game names in the first day of play......I looked them up:  PVP mains.  Day 2 and three had even more PVP mains.  WHY?  Because, ASB's were easier for the "same rewards"  that, could be accomplished "without the chance of a one sided STOMP>>>!"   So, I started asking why here cousin:  because, it's easier, less toxic and pays about the same...." were the responses paraphrased into one sentence....

Edited December 16, 2023 by Asym

[Wolfswetpaws]

If Asymmetric Battles mode helps to retain players in the player-base, I imagine it will become a permanent addition to the game.

I don't see a problem with having Co-op and Asymmetric and random battles and Scenario Operations and the "modes du patch" related to calendar events in-game.

[b101uk]

I have been hammering this mode for snowflakes rather than coop, I do wish asymmetric-battles was a permanent mode, it makes a nice change to conventional coop with better reward. 

[thornzero]

3 hours ago, Frostbow said:

Now that I’ve knocked off the steel and new year certificate snowflakes on my ships, I thought it would be timely to look back a bit on how enjoyable and productive Update 12.11 has been, with the availability of Asymmetric Battles.

I have played this mode exclusively since Wargaming implemented the revamped version on the live server. It is just so much fun fighting against a numerically superior AI force that can reasonably fight and can sometimes surprise me with their accuracy.

In terms of ships, I think the big winners here are the German battleships, led by the Schlieffen. Speed, guns, lots of secondary guns, torpedoes, hydro, and Günther Lütjens—all of these combined make for a steadfast ship that can sail into harm’s way, absorb damage, and dish it out with generous interest, before going back to port with a long list of ships sunk. One of my first games was with the Schlieffen, and currently has my highest damage at 502K, and my highest base XP yet, at 2,289.

 

I've tried other ships, like the Druid (funny how this torpedo-less DD can bully ships like there’s no tomorrow aside from pushing my left mouse button to death), the Montana (always a pleasant battleship to play, with 406s that hit like a truck), Colbert, Atlanta, etc.

Of course, while there were glorious victories, there were also spectacular defeats. I made this mistake of not getting aggressive with my Musashi. This led to our defeat, but then there was not a lot a sniper battleship can do when all that is left facing the bots is you and the CV.

Some observations: it is good the AI no longer has that laser focus on cruisers. In the previous version it felt like it was a death sentence just by bringing a cruiser, as the bots were using laser-guided artillery shells that could consistently crush cruiser citadels.

After capping an area, the bots would turn around, or would move to the center. Other times, they would kite, and when the bots do it, they would just use their rear turrets.

The bots also know when to best cross fire. I’ve been on the receiving end of it numerous times.

Moreover, there is absolutely no feeding frenzy. One of my chief complaints about Co-op is that DDs have the advantage over other ship types due to how watered down the bot AI has been programmed in that mode. Not in Asymmetric Battles. Here, the bots play smart—and the least amount of ‘smart’ in AB is already a huge step-up from the excruciatingly dumb bots that we have been seeing in Co-op for ages. This lack of feeding frenzy allows for all five human players a productive result: a Vermont in Asymmetric Battle can score damage and kill bot ships far more easily compared than in Co-op. And I’ve seen a Paolo Emilio got himself overwhelmed when he thought he could bring himself out of the focus fire from the surviving bot ships.

Of course, if one human fails to do his part, or chooses to play like a bot in Co-op, the remaining players have an even bigger challenge facing them.

However, the flip side of this is the opportunity to shine, and get even bigger returns as the Base XP will be higher, provided of course, the remaining players also know how to play. I had one Asymmetric Battle with the Helena where the 4 players chose to lemming train while I decided to stay at our Base to defend it. I knew I had to, because there was no way they would overrun the enemy base before the bots would do the same to ours. I had to kite away and delay the bots while my teammates decided it was time to return to our base.

Another thing that I particularly like with this mode pertains to the comfort in getting spotting damage and defended ribbons. Combat missions that require either of the two, and in particular defended ribbons, are a pain to get in Co-op because most players would just shoot at the first bot they see. In Asymmetric, I’ve gotten defended ribbons a lot of times, and far more frequently compared to Co-op.

Taken in its entirety, this current version of Asymmetric Battle is way better compared to the previous one, and it is already a huge quality of life improvement for players who want to enjoy playing without the many disadvantages of Co-op. Just by looking at it from the Time Spent in Battle and Base XP earned perspective, it is a very productive mode. For 7-9 minutes of play, I could earn at least twice the amount of Base XP compared to Co-op.

Moving forward, I just hope the folks at the "Ministry of Balance" would make this a permanent mode.

If you send this 5ook win to the community manager they will send you a stuft quaken. They mentioned it in the last twitch stream on Thursday.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

With Asymmetric Battles...why play randoms?

The bots are often more of a challenge to fight than many players.

[CFagan_1987]

I wish Asymmetric battles would replace coop entirely 

[b101uk]

20 minutes ago, CFagan_1987 said:

I wish Asymmetric battles would replace coop entirely 

I wouldn't go that far, especially if the Asymmetric battles bot AI made it into coop, so bots were more of a threat like ~+3 years ago, when DD had to play significantly more conservatively.

[Nevermore135]

4 hours ago, Frostbow said:

Moving forward, I just hope the folks at the "Ministry of Balance" would make this a permanent mode.

Doubtful, for the same reason previous temporary battle modes have been rolled into other formats (Arms Race, the ill-fated Airship Escort) rather than left to stand on their own: doing so would pull too many players out of the Randoms queue.

[GMMF]

Certainly a mode to enjoy and utilized for grinding, but since I play mostly DDs, the bot behavior of turn tail, full speed running away then circling back again is harder to deal with, as they will sail out of torpedo range while shooting anyone that goes after them. Meanwhile BBs and cruisers can utilize the turn around for juicy shots.

The AI logic of focusing is also harder to grasp, they do say AI prioritize highest HP in proximity, but when cruisers & DDs show up beside BBs, they are the one that gets shot at. Often times I saw people getting chunk too hard and dies before contributing much, which increases the chances of failing. Matches with more DDs will usually come with higher risks of this, if its mid tier it will be more excruciating to carry deadweights like them due to the weaker parameters of one's ship.

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

With Asymmetric Battles...why play randoms?

The bots are often more of a challenge to fight than many players.

  
 

[Ensign Cthulhu]

5 hours ago, Frostbow said:

Of course, if one human fails to do his part, or chooses to play like a bot in Co-op, the remaining players have an even bigger challenge facing them.

This is why I don't go anywhere near Asymmetric, especially at a time when every potato and his dog wants to be suicide-carried through the snow, so to speak.

[Paladin1954]

I'm playing this mode for the extra bxp to knockoff snowflakes. With almost 500 botes in port it's the only way I'll finish in time. My only bitch is that you can't do Naval Battles with it. Already apologized to the leadership my my clan about not doing them.

[Asym]

2 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

With Asymmetric Battles...why play randoms?

The bots are often more of a challenge to fight than many players.

BINGO !!!  We have a winner !  Why play Randoms when a PVE mode is less toxic; pays just about the same thing; we never see a stomp; and, it counts at 100% whereas Operations get cut in half...!

And, because that ^^^^ is true, our host most likely will remove them.....   The last thing they want is anything that lessens PVP numbers...

[Asym]

57 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

This is why I don't go anywhere near Asymmetric, especially at a time when every potato and his dog wants to be suicide-carried through the snow, so to speak.

I've been playing ASB's at all times of the day, week and nights and haven't seen a single "Uff-Da, what was that" kind of match yet>?  We in the same game?  I've had several defeats but they weren't Random PVP STOMPS at all.....  

And, honestly, you'd carry the match anyway....

[I_cant_Swim_]

1 hour ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

This is why I don't go anywhere near Asymmetric, especially at a time when every potato and his dog wants to be suicide-carried through the snow, so to speak

Though imo it is certainly worth it, especially for grinding Tier VIII and IX BBs. I got most of the flakes brushed off this way. Sometimes odd things do happen, like a DD companion just abandoning me in a BB alone at cap C, to head off to another cap, with 4-5 DDs on the enemy team as well as CLs and BBs. These "abandoning" tactics usually end predictably...

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

2 minutes ago, Asym said:

I've been playing ASB's at all times of the day, week and nights and haven't seen a single "Uff-Da, what was that" kind of match yet>?  We in the same game?  I've had several defeats but they weren't Random PVP STOMPS at all.....  

And, honestly, you'd carry the match anyway....

I suspect because EC plays mostly co-op, he has a lot higher expectations for success in the mode than those of us who were PVP mains before.

But then again, I've also stated that I'm not sure all player accounts get the same MM behavior and performance...so who really knows?

His view and feelings are probably just as valid as yours or mine.

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

I like "Asymetrical Battles"... I always did... but for the entry Tier - Tier VI  - it is very hard struggle... especially when in, for example, DD... you simply can't carry the team (of bad player) with that... and, lets face it, most players are unfortunately bad... 😔

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Guest]

It's a fun an useful mode. The bots are still very simply programmed. If you lose 2-3 teammates within 4-5min and they don't sink a ship it can become difficult if possibly not winnable. Impressive 500k dmg 2k BXP game @Frostbow. I havent seen anyone get 2k BXP yet in any of my games, suppose it requires your team to somewhat fail.

Here is what the bots do. They follow a predetermined path at the start. Then depending on the mode standard or domination, they either yolo towards the cap or just sort of sit in the middle of the map. Some maps if they encounter resistance they kind of just sit there mid map shuffling horizontally across the map. Orange lines are their usual pathing (occasionaly 1 or 2 bots will deviate and go wide, but I think this requires a player to pull them wide). Theyll push more forward towards the cap point in standard. Domination they again just idle, shuffle back and forth and wont pass the red line usually. The blue lines are torp lines that you can use based off the bots pathing.

This mode may be made permanent. The mode allows less used and more gimmicky ships to be both fun and effective. Secondary BBs ofc rule and can solo 2/3 the team bots. But also torp oriented boats can also thrive here as well. Ive seen Kitakamis play well here, and Yodo's also can easily succeed here as well. Yodo's been getting easy 150k-200k dmg games. Just throw your torps into the pathing. Jinans can also probably do this, really anything with low torp reload and can stealth torp.

I think they will make this a permanent mode, as WG can create/monetize it. They are still watching their metrics. They also wanted to see if people would try to bot it using divisions. (This mode is easily bottable due to the pathing and even easier now with the allowance of divisions).

I didnt have too much trouble tiers 6-7 but it is less carryable w/o the crazy secondary BBs, but still simple enough.

[Vader_Sama]

In general for Asym, avoid the center position unless you're in a Schliefflen or Napoli or subs I guess.

 

Win the side flanks and sweep across

 

Don't be too aggressive or too passive, you need to make decisions quickly depending on the caps and points disadvantage

 

For standard battles in asym, get to the side flanks to punish bots moving into the cap, but be wary of DDs sliding in as they won't fire at you until you're practically entering their detection

Edited December 16, 2023 by Vader_Sama