Proposed CV and Submarine changes discussion thread

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

5 minutes ago, Sailor_Moon said:

*SOME* people wouldn't...

Yeah true, they're not accurate, and they don't have high pen, but they fire pretty fast and actually have reasonable range lols! Doesn't damage the CV build itself TOO much to build into'em. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's great against subs...

I build ALL my CVs with better secondaries.

1 minute ago, Sailor_Moon said:

I have to admit, I'm concerned with how...abusable....the "Duo-flight mode" mechanic seems to be. Of course, we won't know anything further about it till testing starts, but IF you can swap freely between the modes, that could break the game. Go in attack mode, attack, swap to flight mode, avoid AA, get out of AA range, swap to attack mode, rinse and repeat. At that point, AA literally wouldn't matter AT ALL. In short, it would be so much worse than what we've got right now (and it's pretty terrible even now).

But with that said, there's a high chance it WON'T be like that, because it'll break the game, and Wargaming will be monitoring for that level of breakage....hopefully. 😅

I remember the flying Shimakaze and sling shots...

[Sailor_Moon]

6 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

We had the 12-versus-12 Battleship Brawl mode in the past.
It became a snooze-fest of lobbing projectiles from the maximum range of the BB's guns, all too quickly.
Ran-dumb-deadeye-2-point-oh.  🙂 

That's true. Although I recall it being 6v6. That said, it's the mechanics and meta that keep people back....

On a sidenote, maybe Wargaming should change CQC's condition (the BB 4pt skill CQC, that is) from "within secondary range" to "within detection range". In short, the BB version of the Lighthouse build. That would also encourage ships to get a bit closer 😄

Edited December 16, 2023 by Sailor_Moon

[Sailor_Moon]

1 minute ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I remember the flying Shimakaze and sling shots...

IIRC, sling shot CV strats are still a thing even now. 🤔

[Jakob Knight]

And, of course, WG will not have the Forums to get opinion on these changes from this time around.  It will be coming from Discord and YouTube.

 

What could go wrong with that?

 

 

 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

23 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

And, of course, WG will not have the Forums to get opinion on these changes from this time around.  It will be coming from Discord and YouTube.

 

What could go wrong with that?

 

 

 

It's going to be hilarious watching the horror when stuff goes live and is IMMEDIATELY exploited to hell...

[MnemonScarlet]

On 12/14/2023 at 5:48 PM, ArIskandir said:

Its the same scenario as attacking a DD with the AA turned off, you make a first pass to locate the target and then start your second run pre lined to attack. Or you know, bait the enemy to shoot you and it will be proxy spotted. Then there's still the elephant in the room of fighter spotting and failing everything else, a buff to attack timers is not unreasonable. I would say CVs are far from being defenseless and more in line to what every other ship type experience in a regular basis.

That's my point. Other ships can have wildly divergent scenarios from the normal gameloop due to teammates having failed at something extraordinarily simple (or just being all dead, I guess). You could still deal with it as a CV, but you also can as a BB alone vs a DD, but it is less reliable and exposes you to greater risk. At least, if there's no fighter spotting, which...

Regarding fighters, when I posted my original post I thought they'd be removing that too based on some things I'd seen in the discord, but evidently not. So they left one of the most oppressive spotting tools lying around lol. A tool so oppressive that when I used it on a blue DD player in a ranked game (one of the few times I bothered to try CVs in a PvP environment), it got him so tilted he began complaining about it in all chat.

They just don't wanna do minimap only spotting. And no, the population of people who can easily shoot well using the minimap is not big enough to shy away from it, since I've seen that as a reason to avoid it in a few places (not just here).

Edited December 16, 2023 by MnemonScarlet

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

I think they don't want to do minimap spotting because they believe it would be seen as an admission of failure that they had to give in to the playerbase...

...which is not at all true, but it's one of the systematic failure causes in WGs business practices.

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

It's great against subs...

I build ALL my CVs with better secondaries.

  
 

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

And, of course, WG will not have the Forums to get opinion on these changes from this time around.  It will be coming from Discord and YouTube.

What could go wrong with that?

Plenty (could go wrong), of course.  

[Nezio109]

I don't know what to think about cv changes. They "cutting" plane spotting by giving travel mode with AA immunity, from which you can out at will to attack/check the surronding and back to it. DMG output will see massive increase, especially on soviet ones. Hydrophone is another problem. Tired of being randomly spotted by planes while doing stealthy move in dd? Now planes will give away your position from much greater distance, great.

Subs nerfs are stupid. Unpopular and uncomfortable facts, but in reality they are the worst performing, least influential class in the game, this scales further with skill. Radar on cruisers? you ok? Enemy sub is already a grave danger with one of those, you get spotted for 0,00001s and you're dead. WG introduced shootgun oriented subs, created a mess and now what? Nerf to the ground or they will get special treatment? They put yourselves in a corner by introducing a class that shouldn't be in the game. 
If they are so annoying and toxic(becouse they are) just reduce subs numbers to 1 per team and see how it goes. That shouldn,t be problem for MM, not every game has 2 subs and there are nosubs too.

[UnderTheRadarAgain]

6 hours ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

I think the range is of less importance since it will pretty much be a last resort, defense against a yolo rushing DD in this case. I dont think the thought was they were gonna attack surface ships at 14+ km range with them.

Looking at the top 10 or whatever he was doing is of course just a piece of the big picture but also considering the skill level of the majority pf the player base, looking at the mid section of players could also be a bit misleading. In this case at least you can see the potential of a ship and not what a 45 % guy pushing the W-key gets out of it.

But I agree, with Flamu you have to take the good with the bad, he has some of the best skill and experience in this game but also makes his paycheck out of bashing WG (and usually they deserve it).

 

But also looking at Flambass video and also the really confusing Dev blog you gotta admit, WG REALLY has to do SUCH a backwards, roundabout, confusing way when they try to do this balancing.

As Flamu mentions, they could just have done Only minimap spotting, a mechanic that is already implemented and works in the game and something the playerbase has been asking for many years, but instead they try a way that would make a NASA engineer go ...."Huuh!?!" .. and lets face it, the guys coding WOW isn't NASA engineers (example Flamu mentioned when they just tried to implement a new camara angle and botched up multiple shooting/aiming mechanics in the game). So question is how many new bugs will all these new balances create? And for how many update cycles will we all become unpaid testers to their weird mechanics testings?

They pretty much looking at changing up everything from AA on all classes, mechanics with flight of planes, spotting mechanics, new strange consumables (that no one will figure out how they actually work) etc etc etc. Im not hopeful towards how all this will get to work.

I agree - this proposed CV rework (2.0 or is it now 3.0?) looks to be a dogs breakfast. And I agree there are going to be bugs, all the best bugs. My money is on your shells coming out the back of your turret whenever you fire your main battery while AA is active. 

I already hate having to play a CV for naval battles - being the clan leader means you have to play the class nobody else wants to for that star. I suck bad at CV play. Never above middle in team ranking at the end, rarely break 100k damage regardless of the ship used. And since the rocket nerf (DD buff) it's impossible to use that ammo on them. I even stopped using tiny tim rockets because the 5 second delay makes it impossible to hit anything that is moving. I only have something like 96 games in a cv in randoms out of over 4600 games played. So when I talk CV stuff - it's from the perspective of a potato.

We are just going to have to wait until these changes go live on the PTS server to even hope to actually understand what the hell the devs have been smoking.

[Itwastuesday]

9 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

If you prevent the rifle from being loaded and the sniper from getting ammunition, then the rifle is merely a club.

And in a boxing match a club is what, unacceptably underpowered?

[Wolfswetpaws]

39 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

And in a boxing match a club is what, unacceptably underpowered?

And which ship type do you consider to be a "boxer"?

[Andrewbassg]

18 hours ago, MnemonScarlet said:

Regarding fighters, when I posted my original post I thought they'd be removing that too based on some things I'd seen in the discord, but evidently not. So they left one of the most oppressive spotting tools lying around lol. A tool so oppressive that when I used it on a blue DD player in a ranked game (one of the few times I bothered to try CVs in a PvP environment), it got him so tilted he began complaining about it in all chat.

 

Wut? Fighters will still be able to spot? Dear Lord.....what kind of a joke this is...

 

16 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I think they don't want to do minimap spotting because they believe it would be seen as an admission of failure that they had to give in to the playerbase...

Thought about it a bit. I think the map (and the minimap) is much more connected to the 3D rendering as we thought. There are mods, which render what happens on the minimap to the 3D realm and viceversa, even the clicking on the map. Also there is the "map trick" where pressing two times rapidly the M key will literally elevate  the view and one can look behind islands to a degree.

I think it is likely that the minimap is not a separate rendering. At all.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[ArIskandir]

17 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I think they don't want to do minimap spotting because they believe it would be seen as an admission of failure that they had to give in to the playerbase...

...which is not at all true, but it's one of the systematic failure causes in WGs business practices.

I don't think so, the thing about minimap spotting is it doesn't solve anything relevant. CVs will still spot "by accident" and will give preferential focus to isolated/flanking units. It's just a 200mg paracetamol, it won't solve the core issues. 

[ArIskandir]

1 hour ago, Andrewbassg said:

Wut? Fighters will still be able to spot? Dear Lord.....what kind of a joke this is...

There's nothing solid said about fighters. My guess is they'll keep them for last (change) as a fine tune device. It would be a bit nonsensical to keep them unchanged for the new scheme. 

[Andrewbassg]

8 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

There's nothing solid said about fighters. My guess is they'll keep them for last (change) as a fine tune device. It would be a bit nonsensical to keep them unchanged for the new scheme. 

I see. Well, ship borne fighters are actively used by players for spotting purposes so......who knows....

[Snargfargle]

OK, for all of you who are terrified of CVs, I just played twenty Random games this weekend in a tier VIII ship so as to have the greatest possibility of a CV being in the game. How many CVs did I see in those twenty games? None. I did see three hybrid ships but no actual CVs.

Edit: I just joined my twenty-first battle and finally got a CV.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Snargfargle

[Snargfargle]

How did I do against that scary CV? Well...

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

44 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

I don't think so, the thing about minimap spotting is it doesn't solve anything relevant. CVs will still spot "by accident" and will give preferential focus to isolated/flanking units. It's just a 200mg paracetamol, it won't solve the core issues. 

Oh, I agree.

IMO, concealment is completely broken and needs a rework.

22 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

OK, for all of you who are terrified of CVs, I just played twenty Random games this weekend in a tier VIII ship so as to have the greatest possibility of a CV being in the game. How many CVs did I see in those twenty games? None. I did see three hybrid ships but no actual CVs.

Edit: I just joined my twenty-first battle and finally got a CV.

Yet more evidence that the MM is not actually random across player accounts.

[Andrewbassg]

11 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

OK, for all of you who are terrified of CVs, I just played twenty Random games this weekend in a tier VIII ship so as to have the greatest possibility of a CV being in the game. How many CVs did I see in those twenty games? None. I did see three hybrid ships but no actual CVs.

Edit: I just joined my twenty-first battle and finally got a CV.

The issue I'm afraid,  that simple, is not. During holidays the numbers tend to swell up, so arguably the Cv population would be diluted. Then we have quite a few separate gamemodes, which all contribute to that. And we have modes which are reduced line up modes, in which Cv's are much stronger than in 12 v 12.

On top of that, there are significant differences between the servers in terms of Cv "occurrences"

That being said, I agree, I've seeing significantly less Cv games, on both servers, but for the aforementioned reasons.

[Snargfargle]

1 minute ago, Andrewbassg said:

I've seeing significantly less Cv games, on both servers, but for the aforementioned reasons.

It's unfortunate that Maple Syrup quit posting ship stat reports. I just recently started playing the game again after a six-month hiatus and didn't realize how many new ships there were. A quick count reveals at least 40 different CVs in the game, and this doesn't include all the hybrid ships. One would think that planes would be flying everywhere.

[Andrewbassg]

11 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

One would think that planes would be flying everywhere.

Not necessarily. Not all people who play Cvs are Cv mains. There are plenty who play other classes also ,ergo they have snowflakes to collect and Asym battles present a good opportunity to grind lines.

11 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

It's unfortunate that Maple Syrup quit posting ship stat reports. 

Yes, it was a good source for statistics.

Edit: as for the issue of Cv's being "scary", I would suggect to try, for example, RN Cl's and see how they are impacted by spotting. Or... any other CL.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[GandalfTehGray]

This was a 3 day read to try and see everything. Changes are needed on the pvp side and I'm glad something is being done even if I don't do much pvp these days. 

I'll need to watch the Flambass video too. 

To me the CV spotting changes it just sounds like a super convulated solution for a easy problem to fix. 

I think as is this would increase the chance of cvs focusing on helping in active engagements  of the enemy fleets versus finding the 1 ship off by itself and focusing it for daring to exist.  I look forward to testing it but there will be so many interaction changes if it went through as is. 

 

The sub less damage at close range is welcome for my coop matches, but the realism side of me says that's really stupid as the explosive warhead remains the same size. 

[HogHammer]

32 minutes ago, GandalfTehGray said:

This was a 3 day read to try and see everything. Changes are needed on the pvp side and I'm glad something is being done even if I don't do much pvp these days. 

@GandalfTehGray Just three days? 🤣

Just wait until the actual WoWs dev blog rolls out with some real numbers and game mechanics.  This will look like peanuts.