Proposed CV and Submarine changes discussion thread

[Subtle_Octavian]

Change CV spotting? nope.

Magical AA that ramps up with time, and magical immune planes. Flashbang planes, because why not.

Change sub detection?

Add magical escape mode to subs and choose between 6 seconds of underwater spotting or just use the periscope.

Fix sub shotgun?

Nope, make torpedoes accelerate slowly like some wind up toy, with damage magically increasing with range.

Expecto Torpdo! I cast magic missile!

 

 

[ArIskandir]

Sorry to disagree but I think the proposed changes look very interesting and on point to address the issues, yes some are "creative" solutions but at first glance they make sense. 

[Subtle_Octavian]

1 minute ago, ArIskandir said:

Sorry to disagree but I think the proposed changes look very interesting and on point to address the issues, yes some are "creative" solutions but at first glance they make sense. 

The changes are anything but direct and represent roundabout ways of making the ships less impactful without having to actually nerf them.

 

 

 

[ArIskandir]

It will be annoying to follow this same topic on multiple threads so I'm opening one for the specific discussion.

Here's the link for those interested: https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/general-news/upcoming-changes-to-aircraft-carriers-and-submarines/

Spoiler for CV changes

Spoiler

AIRCRAFT CARRIER CHANGES

We’ve been hard at work to find a solution for the following problems:

1. Aircraft carrier plane spotting has too much impact.
2. Anti-aircraft mechanics and consumables don’t feel impactful enough.
3. Rebalancing spotting and anti-aircraft mechanics while ensuring that aircraft carriers remain viable in battle.

We’ve tested many different approaches in the past to deal with these problems, and while some came close to meeting our requirements, they ultimately fell short of our expectations. However, we learned many lessons and many of the previously tested concepts contributed to our current prototype, which is something that we confidently feel will address these problems and lead to big improvements in the overall game experience.

OUR NEW PROTOTYPE

The core aspect of our prototype is that aircraft carrier planes will have two different modes: travel mode and attack mode. The differences between the two modes are outlined below.

TRAVEL MODE

• We don't want aircraft carrier planes to spot enemy ships while traveling—only when they’re attacking. This will reduce the majority of random spotting that aircraft carriers provide while scouting for targets to strike.
• Planes will be able to travel at maximum speed in this mode.
• While traveling, the aircraft carrier will only have the information provided by the spotting of allied ships.
• Surface ships will be able to spot enemy aircraft carriers’ planes during this period if in range, but their AA guns will not be able to engage them.
  • However, the Defensive AA Fire and Fighter consumables can be used against planes in the traveling phase.

Additionally, we are working on adding a new consumable for aircraft carriers which will work in a similar way as Hydrophone, but with limitations. The consumable will only provide brief information on enemy ship positioning, without the ability to track targets over a period of time.

WHILE ATTACKING

• When launching an attack, the planes will be able to spot enemy ships.
• At the same time, the AA from surface ships will be able to fire at the planes.
• In case the aircraft carrier keeps attacking the same ship repeatedly, the ship’s AA strength will get significantly stronger for a period of time–making it counterproductive for aircraft carriers to keep focusing on the same target.
• We also want to provide a new counter-play mechanic for surface ships that amounts to "blinding the carrier"–surface ships will be able to restrict the spotting ability of an aircraft carrier for a period of time, resulting in the inability to see and strike ships effectively that would otherwise not be spotted by allies. This mechanic will, however, not be effective against proxy-spotting.

Additionally, this prototype allows us to experiment with the concept of adding another layer of depth in gameplay and control for aircraft carrier players–taking manual control of some their guns, similar to Main Battery guns on surface ships, when not controlling a squadron. These will be the largest-caliber secondary guns available on the carrier. This should provide a new way to deal with close-range targets.

THUS, THE NEW MECHANICS DESCRIBED ABOVE WILL ALLOW US TO ACHIEVE THE FOLLOWING RESULTS:

• Aircraft carriers' spotting capabilities will decrease, surface ships will have new tools for active counterplay against aircraft, constant attacks against the same target will become less effective, and the value of AA consumables will increase.
• On the other hand, aircraft carriers will be able to reach their targets faster and launch more attacks, as well as being able to control their ship's guns, which, together, will expand their gameplay capabilities and maintain their combat effectiveness.
• Our main goal is to improve the interaction between surface ships and aircraft carriers as a whole, and we don't want to reduce the overall damage capabilities of either side. Therefore, along with the introduction of new mechanics, we will be making balance changes to all surface ships and aircraft carriers in the game to preserve their core gameplay features, while preventing them from being over- or under-performing in battle.

Due to the scale of this change, we expect to have to make additional balancing changes in the future–both for aircraft carriers and AA. Since this prototype is in active development, we can’t share more details at this point, but we expect to be able to provide you with an update by the end of February.

Spoiler for Sub changes:

Spoiler

SUBMARINE CHANGES

In parallel with addressing the aircraft carrier issues, we've been working on submarine changes for quite some time now. We’ll implement these changes gradually over the course of a few upcoming updates, and you can expect to see the first major changes with Updates 13.1 & 13.2.

THE UPCOMING CHANGES ARE AIMED TO ADDRESS THE FOLLOWING PROBLEMS:

• The situation where current mechanics allow submarines to perform successful "shotgunning" of enemy ships.
  • "Shotgunning" is when a submarine surfaces in close range to enemy surface ships and launches a devastating salvo of torpedoes that are very difficult to evade.
• Lack of consistent and understandable interactions between submarine and surface ship, and, in particular, lack of additional ways for both sides to counter each other.
• At the same time, we want to maintain the current level of combat effectiveness of submarines in battle, which we plan to achieve through a series of balance changes, as well as updating commander skills, upgrades, and signals.

UPCOMING CHANGES IN UPDATE 13.1

• Italian & German cruiser tech tree branches (
  X VENEZIA
   and 
  X HINDENBURG
   lines) as well as several premium heavy cruisers will receive plane-based anti-submarine warfare (ASW), replacing their ship-based depth charges. This means that all heavy cruisers except Dutch cruisers, who have their own HE bombs airstrike, will have plane-based ASW.
  • Additionally, we also plan to add depth charges on destroyers 
    VI LEONE
     and 
    V OKHOTNIK
     a few updates after 13.1.
• We’re planning to improve the ASW armament of mid-Tier ships, improving their effectiveness against Tier VI–VIII submarines. We will share detailed information on these changes in an upcoming DevBlog.
• Some cruiser branches will receive the Submarine Surveillance consumable. We’re planning to add this to the upcoming Commonwealth cruiser line as well as Italian and Japanese cruiser branches (
  X VENEZIA
  , 
  X ZAŌ
  , and 
  X YODO
   branches).
  • This will provide these cruisers with an interesting new facet of gameplay, especially considering that they do not have a large number of consumables.
  • Adding this consumable to the new branch of Commonwealth cruisers will diversify their gameplay, as well as enhance the sub hunter role already inherent in them through enhanced ASW.
  • More branches might receive this consumable, but our goal is not to provide this to all cruisers (similar to the distribution of Surveillance Radar or Hydroacoustic Search).
• We also plan to change the mechanics of the Hydrophone consumable. It’s intended for a more defensive than offensive use, so we will limit its functionality to highlight ships only momentarily on the mini map in a certain radius (similar to Hydroacoustic Search/Surveillance Radar)–visually this consumable will work the same way as before. Additionally, the consumable will now be able to detect targets even through terrain. When submarines use it to highlight the ship above them and in their line of sight, that ship will appear as a silhouette only for short period (about 6 seconds) and then disappear. Targets behind the terrain will be displayed as a short flash without a silhouette. This change removes the ability for submarines to closely track their targets and thus pulling off successful shotgunning interactions more difficult. This should also make this consumable function closer to Hydroacoustic Search and Surveillance Radar, making it easier to grasp and understand.
• While taking into consideration the impact of the improvements for detecting submarines and dealing damage to them, we plan to improve the turning circle radius of all submarines so that they have more opportunities to avoid detection by enemy ships, timely change of position and better maneuver among the islands.
• We will update some combat signals for submarines to reflect these changes.
• Among other changes, audio and visual submarine collision warning will be added to the game for submarines, allowing submarines that have not detected each other to be aware of approaching one another at distances of less than 2 km.

FUTURE UPDATES

• As another step in solving the "shotgunning" problem, we will test torpedoes with a gradual speed and damage increase over range. If this solution is effective enough and is a good fit for our game, some more submarines torpedoes may be rebalanced to be less dangerous in close proximity, but more powerful at longer range.
  • Dynamic torpedo speed: The torpedoes will be very slow when first launched until a certain range (for example, the first 3km), and then their speed will gradually increase. This should give surface ships more opportunities to evade "shotgun" attacks.
  • Dynamic torpedo damage: Similarly, the damage from the torpedoes will be very low within close proximity, and after traveling some distance, their potential damage will increase.
• Some submarine upgrades will also be updated.
• We’re planning to update submarine Commander skills, most likely in the first half of the year. Quite some time has passed since their introduction, which has allowed us to gather enough data and feedback to revamp them. There is quite a wide scope of changes, and we can't share an exact date yet as a result, but we will keep you updated.

 

 

[ArIskandir]

Reserved for my own opinion when I find time to type it

[Sailor_Moon]

Honestly? The changes look very VERY interesting. And it proves that Wargaming CAN actually re-balance things they've claimed doesn't need re-balancing....which is honestly a very positive point for them. Big Ups.

They said shotgunning wasn't a problem and that they weren't considering any changes to subs back in 11.9 (I think)  and voila. Changes. Which is good though, because subs need adjustment, and clearly CVs have needed spotting adjustment (as I've said before, their spotting power is simply too high, in addition to all the other perks CVs get).

I mean hey, it's a start. I'm happy to see Wargaming attempting to fix balance issues.

[Sailor_Moon]

5 minutes ago, Subtle_Octavian said:

The changes are anything but direct and represent roundabout ways of making the ships less impactful without having to actually nerf them.

They're certainly complex (no objections there), and we'll have to see how they actually turn out, but ultimately Wargaming is TRYING to make real balance changes with this. I do applaud them for that. I'm not gonna cry them down for doing what the playerbase has been asking them for (reduce CV spotting power, address sub shotgunning).

Edited December 14, 2023 by Sailor_Moon

[tfcas119]

I can think of two sentences that fix CVs and shotgunning.

Minimap Spotting.

Minimum 3km torpedo arming distance.

But apparently this is too complicated for the playerbase so we need this even more complicated solution. Also finally Hindy and Venezia getting ASW and finally a reason to use Yodo.

[Verblonde]

10 minutes ago, Sailor_Moon said:

I mean hey, it's a start. I'm happy to see Wargaming attempting to fix balance issues.

This.

I won't be getting my knickers in a twist one way or t'other until we see some hard details, but - at the least - it's an acknowledgement that there is stuff that needs fixing.

 

34 minutes ago, Subtle_Octavian said:

damage magically increasing with range.

I must admit, this bit made me raise an eyebrow; it's the only bit that - to me - is 100% counterintuitive.

I know, I know; it's not a simulation, and I shouldn't expect logic in this sort of context. If anyone needs me...

Edited December 14, 2023 by Verblonde

[Jakob Knight]

I'm willing to give these a shot and see how they work, but I am having serious CV Rework flashbacks.  When you make too many major changes at once trying to satisfy everyone, the chance for making a host of new problems goes up a lot.

 

What stands out to me is how the Devs expect a CV to attack units it can't see unless it is already attacking them?  If the current times and agility restrictions remain, that will mean CVs will have very little chance to attack unless another friendly unit does the spotting for them.

 

Also, giving Cruisers the ability to spot any Sub within 6-9 Km and drop ASDC on that Sub seems a bit too extreme.  I do like how it will give some Cruisers more utility, but it's also an extremely lethal addition.  The slight improvement in turning rate for Subs seems not in proportion to this addition.

 

We'll see how it works out, but it looks like a mess, and that WG is trying to play Wack-a-Mole using a hand grenade.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Jakob Knight

[Helstrem]

25 minutes ago, Subtle_Octavian said:

Change CV spotting? nope.

Magical AA that ramps up with time, and magical immune planes. Flashbang planes, because why not.

Change sub detection?

Add magical escape mode to subs and choose between 6 seconds of underwater spotting or just use the periscope.

Fix sub shotgun?

Nope, make torpedoes accelerate slowly like some wind up toy, with damage magically increasing with range.

 

CV spotting was removed from the planes during travel phase.  That isn't a change to CV spotting?  That is more DD friendly, lets face it, DDs are the main issue here, than minimap spotting.

AA getting more accurate as planes loiter in the AA doesn't seem too magical to me.  It seems more like gunners getting the lead, fire control directors dialing it in and planes getting slower.

What magical immune planes?  You mean the planes in transit that can't see the surface ships, which can see them, not getting whacked by normal AA?

The blinding the planes so they can't spot surface ships does seem a bit out there, but it is definitely not CV friendly.

 

Honestly, it seems you either didn't understand what was said/written about the CV changes or you are too far into hyperbole to discuss it.

 

The submarine torpedo changes, particularly the ramping up damage, is very arcade.  Speed I can, loosely buy, as acceleration time.  That said, this is a naval themed arcade game, not a simulator and something needs to be done to pull back on the efficacy of shotgunning.

[Sailor_Moon]

34 minutes ago, Subtle_Octavian said:

Nope, make torpedoes accelerate slowly like some wind up toy, with damage magically increasing with range.

Expecto Torpdo! I cast magic missile!

Stupefy AA guns!! My AA guns now are stronger on one side of my ship but weaker on my left side (??????????)

I mean, Sector Reinforcement exists, so.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[b101uk]

for the changes to be effective they must ultimately work in coop to make CV and subs more effective than they are given both already struggle due to the short duration of coop games and the changes will only make both CV and subs less effective in coop.

 

thus the ideas are fundamentally broken and ill thought out.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

12 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

While traveling, the aircraft carrier will only have the information provided by the spotting of allied ships.

No. Just no.

That is ass backwards.

It will be impossible to actually line up attacks, which is a current core part of CV gameplay.

Let's read on.

13 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

However, the Defensive AA Fire and Fighter consumables can be used against planes in the traveling phase.

Oh look, invsi-fire returns.

Sigh.

Reading on...

14 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Additionally, we are working on adding a new consumable for aircraft carriers which will work in a similar way as Hydrophone, but with limitations. The consumable will only provide brief information on enemy ship positioning, without the ability to track targets over a period of time.

This is just dumb.

At least let the CV alone see what his planes are doing...

15 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

When launching an attack, the planes will be able to spot enemy ships.

Attack timers are currently FAR too short to allow this to work practically.

15 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

In case the aircraft carrier keeps attacking the same ship repeatedly, the ship’s AA strength will get significantly stronger for a period of time–making it counterproductive for aircraft carriers to keep focusing on the same target.

Stupid idea. Better to not have AA mounts be destroyed.

16 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

We also want to provide a new counter-play mechanic for surface ships that amounts to "blinding the carrier"–surface ships will be able to restrict the spotting ability of an aircraft carrier for a period of time, resulting in the inability to see and strike ships effectively that would otherwise not be spotted by allies. This mechanic will, however, not be effective against proxy-spotting.

I.e., more invsi-fire mechanics, because you can just squad wipe with defAA on a blinded set of planes.

Stupid.

Although, this could be the setup for brining missiles into the game.

17 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Additionally, this prototype allows us to experiment with the concept of adding another layer of depth in gameplay and control for aircraft carrier players–taking manual control of some their guns, similar to Main Battery guns on surface ships, when not controlling a squadron. These will be the largest-caliber secondary guns available on the carrier. This should provide a new way to deal with close-range targets.

WG thinks CV captains spend a lot of time not in control of their planes. LOL.

Clueless change.

18 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

On the other hand, aircraft carriers will be able to reach their targets faster and launch more attacks, as well as being able to control their ship's guns, which, together, will expand their gameplay capabilities and maintain their combat effectiveness.

They will not be able to launch more attacks...AA is much more punishing, and you can't spot for your own attacks.

They've basically killed the class...

19 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

we will be making balance changes to all surface ships and aircraft carriers in the game to preserve their core gameplay features, while preventing them from being over- or under-performing in battle

...which means they will be massively buffing CVs in the near future to make up for the neutering.

Careful what you wish for folks.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

Overall, I bet that those CV changes will drop my playtime significantly.

There were plenty of better options that have been provided to WG about the ways to fix the issues than that dumpster fire.

Multiple times while reading it I had the realization that WG developers remain utterly clueless about how CV captains actually play the class.

[Snargfargle]

Might as well re-skin the ships to look like unicorns, wyverns, manticores and other fantastical beasts if you are going to remove yet more layers of realism in a purportedly warship game. CVs already are fairly inconsequential as played by most people. Only a handful of the very best players are actually any good in CVs and it's been this way since long before the rework happened. I haven't been sunk by a CV in so long I can't even recall when the last time was. However, yet again they are "balancing" to the 1% of experts in the game rather than the 75% of normal players.

[Jakob Knight]

An interesting question on the Sub torpedoes is:  will the torpedoes do more damage with greater range than they do currently (advantage), or only do their current damage after travelling a long distance (penalty).

 

 

[cheapinkc]

16 minutes ago, b101uk said:

for the changes to be effective they must ultimately work in coop to make CV and subs more effective than they are given both already struggle due to the short duration of coop games and the changes will only make both CV and subs less effective in coop.

 

thus the ideas are fundamentally broken and ill thought out.

The game is balanced around how mechanics work in Randoms.  Making subs and cvs work better in coop would require substantial buffs given the shirt duration of coop games.  No thank you.  

[cheapinkc]

50 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

An interesting question on the Sub torpedoes is:  will the torpedoes do more damage with greater range than they do currently (advantage), or only do their current damage after travelling a long distance (penalty).

 

 

I read it as strictly your second option as a direct mitigation to crap gunning.

Edited December 14, 2023 by HogHammer
Descriptive language edit

[thornzero]

Its prototyping which means its all up in the air anyways. But I think it is good they are working on both these issues.

[BCGrog]

I was about to pull the trigger and get the Gato ... But not so sure now because they seem to be nerfing the whole reason it's so powerful ... the dreaded sneak up-shotgun-snootful-of-torps attack.

Or am I wrong?

Can someone break these changes down for me in relation to the Gato?

I've only played subs one or twice but after getting nuked by a few using that tactic I was hoping to dish out some payback 😉

[b101uk]

2 minutes ago, cheapinkc said:

The game is balanced around how mechanics work in Randoms.  Making subs and cvs work better in coop would require substantial buffs given the shirt duration of coop games.  No thank you.  

But significant numbers of people play PvE forms of the game and making subs and CV worse in them game modes is NOT an option that should ever be considered just to pander to feckless PvP players who have this warped narrative about CV and subs based on the small % of people who are actually effective in them vs the masses that are not effective in them in PvP.

[Itwastuesday]

So carrier buffs then. Hah. The way they talked about it sounded like you can go into the zoom around the map mode so you're more effective from back of the map, also able to bypass AA bubbles for whoever you're going for, then when you reach combat zone you descend and start to strike normally. Like they're not making it so that you have to start attack run in order to spot, only that you have an alternate flight mode in addition to the current one. 

Sub changes sound like a buff to the spam pings bots and subs that have a bunch of rear launchers. I doubt they're actually making it so that a Gato cannot oneshot any ship with close range attacks, probably more like you can't do it from spitting distance.

Much doubt, but perhaps they're so incompetent they screw up their plan to buff carriers and subs and end up somehow nerfing them.

[Sailor_Moon]

43 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

AA getting more accurate as planes loiter in the AA doesn't seem too magical to me.  It seems more like gunners getting the lead, fire control directors dialing it in and planes getting slower.

That is DEFINITELY the way to look at the AA ramping mechanic. That does make sense. 👍

[Sailor_Moon]

26 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

An interesting question on the Sub torpedoes is:  will the torpedoes do more damage with greater range than they do currently (advantage), or only do their current damage after travelling a long distance (penalty).

 

 

...Hmmm...Good question. ~-~°('. ' )°~-~