A take on passive meta, HE spam complaints, and brawling

[Unlooky]

These are very common talking point amongst popular CCs and BB players. Why do people still argue about and complain about this? World of Warships is inherently a passive game- Shooting someone coming towards you is much easier than shooting someone kiting away. This is how the game has been since it's very inception. It seems silly to complain about it now when this has been how the game is for so long. Did everyone forget that Zao came with the start of the game, and had stealth firing? It's not like we are still living in the 2020 Deadeye era. This game since it's inception has never been about braindead W key gaming above Tier 3 or co-op. 

Why do people shoot HE? Well, either they have really good HE (Conqueror, Thunderer, and St. Vincent,) or they are a cruiser/DD and literally cannot shoot AP or they will do 0 damage. I will concede that the British BBs are highly toxic to play against, but cruisers have always relied on HE as their primary shell, with a few exceptions. Without HE, non-BBs and a handful of cruisers simply cannot do anything against larger ships. HE is the factor that keeps them competitive in such engagements. 

Furthermore, this isn't really an issue with how the game is balanced and more of the Random Battles format. In smaller, competitive modes (Ranked, CB, KoTs) the meta is arguably the opposite: pushing comps centered around Napoli, Kremlin, and Petropavlovsk are extremely strong and need to be restricted. I would propose the idea that this passive style is more of the playerbase actually becoming better at the game for once, and learning how to focus fire targets while simultaneously avoid being focus fired. 

Before you argue that HE spammers have become more prolific and more powerful, isn't the same true about high caliber battleships? More HE spammers are added to the game, and more battleships are continually added that overmatch and completely destroy them. Out of the 10 Tier X BBs added since I've started playing the game, 6 of them overmatch 30mm, a trait that was rare until the most recent years. Meanwhile, only 3 of the top ten HE DPM cruisers are new (using my registration date again.) 

Complaints on this topic are extremely common, but nobody actually suggests any realistic solutions to curb it. Again, kiting is easier based off simple ballistics: if someone is retreating, you need to lead them further, and if someone is pushing, you are shooting at an effectively shorter range. To change this would require a massive overhaul to how gunnery functions. Nerfing HE or fires just serves to make Battleships even more powerful while lowering the skill floor. 

Lastly, brawling is anything but dead, and I will say this as someone whose first T10 was GK during the Thunderer epidemic. You cannot braindeadly throw your ship into the cap at the match start. That does not equate to brawling being dead. After the 7 minute or so mark, the game becomes a much more close quarters as more and more ships die. Outside of outlier maps with open swathes of ocean (Okinawa and Ocean) you are able to advance to close range. I have literally never had an issue getting close range in a BB, provided that I actually survive past early game. Perhaps many of the complaints come from the battleship players who cannot.

 

Anyways, I want to know if people share my opinion on this regard. If you believe passive HE spam is a phenomenon that needs to be removed I would like to hear why. 

 

 

[Itwastuesday]

Well they have kept adding ships that promote passive gameplay ever since I started, with the odd Schlieffen thrown in. My take on it is that cruisers are universally worthless with the exception of Petropavlovsk and maybe DM, partly because overmatch but mostly because detection mechanics don't favour them. Especially sky cancer means any sort of aggressive play is practically a full commitment since you can never go unspotted.

[Type_93]

46 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

Especially sky cancer means any sort of aggressive play is practically a full commitment since you can never go unspotted

Why do players complain about being spotted by CVs all the time? Being spotted is fine. BBs and most Cruisers are going to perms spotted the second they fire. You have to learn how to play effectively. Learn how to position, how to WASD in open water, how to aim and where to aim, how to angle. HE spam is just a part of the game. No matter how players or what player complain about, it’s always a skill issue at the root. There are many players who excel at this game despite having to contend with all the same issues poor players cry about.  

[Justin_Simpleton]

I think passive play has been the general reaction to the fast addition of ship types and unique capabilities.  I'm seeing a trend in Random battles where more aggressive play is happening more and I think that is because the players at my skill level are gradually understanding the capabilities of their assigned flank fleet and can recognize whether the other captains of that flank are deploying properly. Or, maybe that's just me.  I don't see a need to nerf HE.  It's no worse than sub torps.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

Passive play is boring to most people. If the right play is snuggling up to an island, going hull down, and trusting your RNG is better than the enemy...the match isn't very exciting.

Take KotS...most of those matches are like watching paint dry.

Passive play being boring is a legitimate complaint.

Secondly, brawling is not just 'getting into secondary range'. Yes, proper brawling at high tier is dead, because trying to do so kills you.

To those who complain that brawling is dead, I encourage them to play lower tiers...it isn't dead there.

[Itwastuesday]

22 minutes ago, Type_93 said:

BBs and most Cruisers are going to perms spotted the second they fire. 

Lol no? You can choose to go dark to drop aggro or reposition. Unless there's planes.

[Admiral_Karasu]

4 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

Lol no? You can choose to go dark to drop aggro or reposition. Unless there's planes.

You think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74vYKL3OYAc

[Type_93]

5 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

Lol no? You can choose to go dark to drop aggro or reposition. Unless there's planes.

Naw, if a decent DD is on that flank, your perms spotted. And if you do go dark, your out of the right having no battle impact. 

[Asym]

3 hours ago, Unlooky said:

These are very common talking point amongst popular CCs and BB players. W

...

Anyways, I want to know if people share my opinion on this regard. If you believe passive HE spam is a phenomenon that needs to be removed I would like to hear why.

We've had the HE discussion for years now and the game isn't going to change anything at all.......nothing.  It's an arcade cooperative shooter that completely lacks any SIM or reality based combat systems:  it can't because they simply "elongate the game" and that, isn't what Arcade shooters do.

Want a SIM - play a SIM.  You won't like it because it is Soooooooooo Slooooooow, mold grows faster and they are fun to military purists but, can cause sever mental issues in most "gamers".....  Heck, we had pro-gamers quit an Combat Effectiveness (CE) test phase of a demo AI driven game module....  Reality isn't a "friendly or fun" metric.

Want to control HE spam is easy in this game....  Put a "gun tube" temperature metric on each turret's gun - the more you fire without letting up on the trigger, the more dispersion that weapons system has !  High temperatures in crease bore diameter that lessens rifling contact and super heats the breech !  - which,  might 'Cook off" the next loaded rounds detonating when the breech closes.  You'd have to stop firing to regain accuracy !   Or, as other mentioned in the old forum - limit ammo.

[Unlooky]

30 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

Well they have kept adding ships that promote passive gameplay ever since I started, with the odd Schlieffen thrown in. My take on it is that cruisers are universally worthless with the exception of Petropavlovsk and maybe DM, partly because overmatch but mostly because detection mechanics don't favour them. Especially sky cancer means any sort of aggressive play is practically a full commitment since you can never go unspotted.

I haven't felt that way at all honestly. With the exception of maybe Yodo and Gouden (not that either line is even relevant) I wouldn't say any new cruiser line seriously encourages passive play. I love playing San Martin and Marseille because of how they reward well timed aggression. The other new lines might not punish playing passive but they haven't added an entire line of Conqueror-esque 1 line HE spammers. 

 

Just now, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Take KotS...most of those matches are like watching paint dry.

 

I agree, but actually playing those matches is much more fun. World of Warships sucks for spectators because of how nothing really happens for extended periods of time, but planning and executing the strategies isn't like anything else in the game.

Just now, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Secondly, brawling is not just 'getting into secondary range'. Yes, proper brawling at high tier is dead, because trying to do so kills you.

 

Disagreed. For me, brawling is any close range engagement. Perhaps for you it requires exchanging broadsides a la Age of Sail, but an extended duel under 10-8km in a tier 10 match constitutes as a brawl in my book. 

[Unlooky]

Just now, Asym said:

We've had the HE discussion for years now and the game isn't going to change anything at all.......nothing.  It's an arcade cooperative shooter that completely lacks any SIM or reality based combat systems:  it can't because they simply "elongate the game" and that, isn't what Arcade shooters do.

Want a SIM - play a SIM.  You won't like it because it is Soooooooooo Slooooooow, mold grows faster and they are fun to military purists but, can cause sever mental issues in most "gamers".....  Heck, we had pro-gamers quit an Combat Effectiveness (CE) test phase of a demo AI driven game module....  Reality isn't a "friendly or fun" metric.

Want to control HE spam is easy in this game....  Put a "gun tube" temperature metric on each turret's gun - the more you fire without letting up on the trigger, the more dispersion that weapons system has !  High temperatures in crease bore diameter that lessens rifling contact and super heats the breech !  - which,  might 'Cook off" the next loaded rounds detonating when the breech closes.  You'd have to stop firing to regain accuracy !   Or, as other mentioned in the old forum - limit ammo.

I suppose part of my post was asking if there even is an issue as is with HE as a whole. Yes, there are problematic ships, but I really don't think your average heavy cruiser needs nerfs to it's HE. 

[Itwastuesday]

53 minutes ago, Type_93 said:

Naw, if a decent DD is on that flank, your perms spotted. And if you do go dark, your out of the right having no battle impact. 

All of that is false.

[Itwastuesday]

36 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

I suppose part of my post was asking if there even is an issue as is with HE as a whole. Yes, there are problematic ships, but I really don't think your average heavy cruiser needs nerfs to it's HE. 

Well no, cruisers definitely don't need nerfs. Changes, perhaps, but nerfing the only thing the majority of them do semi-competently would just kill most of the lines.

[Snargfargle]

I like sailing into the thick of things with my BBs. I usually eventually get sunk but it's a hoot while it lasts. I also have a 57% win rate in my most-used brawler after over a thousand games played in it so my "strategy" seems to pay off. I find this more enjoyable than trying to stand off and kite while trying to avoid long-range HE showers from the long-range flamethrower cruisers and DDs. As for the way I play, I usually load HE to begin with as I'm likely to to run into a DD or nose-in ship first and then switch to AP when I start seeing things more broadside to me.

[Type_93]

4 hours ago, Itwastuesday said:

All of that is false.

Fixed that for ya. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by HogHammer
Misquoting

[Nevermore135]

5 hours ago, Unlooky said:

Out of the 10 Tier X BBs added since I've started playing the game, 6 of them overmatch 30mm, a trait that was rare until the most recent years.

Yup. Gone are the days when 16” guns could really be considered the “standard” at tier X. Old ships like Hindenburg and Zao had 30mm plating that used to provide significant benefit in resisting high-tier battleship fire. Now 30mm plating (decks for 6” CLs, decks and upper belts for CAs) is standard for tier X cruisers, but we’ve also seen an explosion in 430mm+ guns at high tiers that overmatch it.

Just look at the current group of tech tree battleships at tier X, which is a good metric to use to asses things since they are universally available for no monetary cost. Of the 12 tech tree battleship lines, more than half of them have 30mm overmatch: Yamato, Republique, Kremlin, Vermont, Preussen, St. Vincent, and Bungo. That’s a far cry from when I started playing the game, when only the first two existed. If one looks at the other five ships, most of them have some type of offensive gimmick to offset the lack of 30mm overmatch, many of them particularly dangerous to cruisers:

Conqueror has the British BB HE everyone knows and loves. It’s especially fun getting hit with it now that cruisers lack the PM skill. Columbo has SAP, which deals high damage and doesn’t overpen. Schlieffen has excellent secondaries and unlike her German BB counterparts has all the tools to put them to maximum use (as well as torpedoes). Louisiana has HE bombers, which are the most versatile type of aircraft in the game. The outlier is Montana, which I personally consider to be largely overshadowed by Ohio (but that’s another issue).

The high-tier meta is currently no more (and arguably less) friendly to cruisers than it was when I first started. The changes WG made to cruiser plating a few years back (at the same time IFHE was reworked) have had a noticeable effect at mid-tiers (14” guns are still fairly common in their MM spread, so the addition of 25mm decks on so many cruisers was a huge boon), but at higher tiers the changes have largely failed to keep up with the power creep, especially now that battlecruisers (and the odd BB like Thunderer and Georgia) with high accuracy (CC/CB dispersion model) have become well-established.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Nevermore135

[Itwastuesday]

1 hour ago, Nevermore135 said:

The high-tier meta is currently no more (and arguably less) friendly to cruisers than it was when I first started. The changes WG made to cruiser plating a few years back (at the same time IFHE was reworked) have had a noticeable effect at mid-tiers (14” guns are still fairly common in their MM spread, so the addition of 25mm decks on so many cruisers was a huge boon), but at higher tiers the changes have largely failed to keep up with the power creep, especially now that battlecruisers (and the odd BB like Thunderer and Georgia) with high accuracy (CC/CB dispersion model) have become well-established.

I suspect WG plans to not buff TX cruiser plating but rather release T11 cruisers with armour. Compare hindy and clausewitz for example.

[ArIskandir]

HE spam is a non-issue. Complains are common because BB players that dont know how to prolerly play BBs are common. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by ArIskandir

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

4 hours ago, Unlooky said:

Disagreed. For me, brawling is any close range engagement. Perhaps for you it requires exchanging broadsides a la Age of Sail, but an extended duel under 10-8km in a tier 10 match constitutes as a brawl in my book. 

The people saying brawling is dead, do not share your definition of brawling.

[BOBTHEBALL]

9 hours ago, Itwastuesday said:

 My take on it is that cruisers are universally worthless with the exception of Petropavlovsk and maybe DM, partly because overmatch but mostly because detection mechanics don't favour them.

Holy moly this is a bad take

[BOBTHEBALL]

7 hours ago, Unlooky said:

I agree, but actually playing those matches is much more fun. World of Warships sucks for spectators because of how nothing really happens for extended periods of time, but planning and executing the strategies isn't like anything else in the game.

As someone who's participated in KOTS I can say it was great fun and even though the matches look like nothing was going on there was lots of entertainment for us players.

[BOBTHEBALL]

4 hours ago, Itwastuesday said:

I suspect WG plans to not buff TX cruiser plating but rather release T11 cruisers with armour. Compare hindy and clausewitz for example.

That's how it should be? The tier 11 should be more armored and have better firepower than the tier 10.

If your tier 10 cruiser had worse armor and firepower compared to your tier 9 cruiser you'd be upset about it.

[NMA101]

11 hours ago, Unlooky said:

Furthermore, this isn't really an issue with how the game is balanced and more of the Random Battles format.

This is the key to your argument here. I agree HE spam is not the cause of the passive, spawn-camping gameplay, but more of a symptom. If you are 12+ KM away from the nearest enemy, many players, even in BBs, will simply load HE because it is "guaranteed damage". Plus RNG from fires and all that. 

So what are the causes then? As you alluded to, it is a mix of map design, game mode, and yes CVs and submarines. 

Standard battle is the worst offender in this regard, as "the team that pushes first loses" rule usually holds.  Since there is almost no player coordination in this game, the "push" may only be 3-4 ships, which is obviously not enough to match a crossfire of even half the enemy team (6). 

Domination battles could be better, but this is dependent on the map. Some caps are relatively safe so bow-tanking ships can close-in easily, while others are certain death since they lack escape/retreat routes. 

CVs and submarines throw all positioning rules out the window as they can deal damage from angles that surface ships would have a hard time reaching and of course, allow the enemy team to rain in fire from all over the map. 

This is why ranked mode is so much more dynamic. Need to make a sharp turn to avoid CV torps or bombs? In a 12-person game you are likely to expose broadside to several enemies, while in a smaller format you may get away with not taking any damage (outside the CV's). 

[YouSatInGum]

Often the complaints about HE spam from BB are centered around fires and the especially the RNG part of that equation....or at least I hope that's what the complaint is about otherwise it's just complaining about a ship shooting at you.

That said, one potential remedy is to give a much upgraded IFHE skill that gives an even larger fire chance penalty.  Something like +50% pen for -75% fire chance would probably work.

 

[pepe_trueno]

13 hours ago, Unlooky said:

These are very common talking point amongst popular CCs and BB players. Why do people still argue about and complain about this? World of Warships is inherently a passive game- Shooting someone coming towards you is much easier than shooting someone kiting away. This is how the game has been since it's very inception. It seems silly to complain about it now when this has been how the game is for so long. Did everyone forget that Zao came with the start of the game, and had stealth firing? It's not like we are still living in the 2020 Deadeye era. This game since it's inception has never been about braindead W key gaming above Tier 3 or co-op. 

Why do people shoot HE? Well, either they have really good HE (Conqueror, Thunderer, and St. Vincent,) or they are a cruiser/DD and literally cannot shoot AP or they will do 0 damage. I will concede that the British BBs are highly toxic to play against, but cruisers have always relied on HE as their primary shell, with a few exceptions. Without HE, non-BBs and a handful of cruisers simply cannot do anything against larger ships. HE is the factor that keeps them competitive in such engagements. 

Furthermore, this isn't really an issue with how the game is balanced and more of the Random Battles format. In smaller, competitive modes (Ranked, CB, KoTs) the meta is arguably the opposite: pushing comps centered around Napoli, Kremlin, and Petropavlovsk are extremely strong and need to be restricted. I would propose the idea that this passive style is more of the playerbase actually becoming better at the game for once, and learning how to focus fire targets while simultaneously avoid being focus fired. 

Before you argue that HE spammers have become more prolific and more powerful, isn't the same true about high caliber battleships? More HE spammers are added to the game, and more battleships are continually added that overmatch and completely destroy them. Out of the 10 Tier X BBs added since I've started playing the game, 6 of them overmatch 30mm, a trait that was rare until the most recent years. Meanwhile, only 3 of the top ten HE DPM cruisers are new (using my registration date again.) 

Complaints on this topic are extremely common, but nobody actually suggests any realistic solutions to curb it. Again, kiting is easier based off simple ballistics: if someone is retreating, you need to lead them further, and if someone is pushing, you are shooting at an effectively shorter range. To change this would require a massive overhaul to how gunnery functions. Nerfing HE or fires just serves to make Battleships even more powerful while lowering the skill floor. 

Lastly, brawling is anything but dead, and I will say this as someone whose first T10 was GK during the Thunderer epidemic. You cannot braindeadly throw your ship into the cap at the match start. That does not equate to brawling being dead. After the 7 minute or so mark, the game becomes a much more close quarters as more and more ships die. Outside of outlier maps with open swathes of ocean (Okinawa and Ocean) you are able to advance to close range. I have literally never had an issue getting close range in a BB, provided that I actually survive past early game. Perhaps many of the complaints come from the battleship players who cannot.

 

Anyways, I want to know if people share my opinion on this regard. If you believe passive HE spam is a phenomenon that needs to be removed I would like to hear why. 

 

 

the problem are the mechanics of the game that encourage passive play

 

first problem is the spotting mechanic:  as long as it only takes  1 ship to find you for everyone and their dog to have a perfect sight on you getting close to the fight is plain suicide.

Hiding behind an island or sniping from the edge have become so common because they are a no brainer, just sit back and wait for someone else to risk their ship so you can farm damage from the safety of concealment.

possible solution: rework spotting mechanic, modules and skills so the player has to build their captain to be proficient with sniping / island camping. Its the same logic behind secondary builds or survival builds or lighthouse builds. Want to be good at something? then you have to build the ship for that.

personaly i would go with something along this lines:

Spoiler

spotting mechanic rework: can only see and get a lock on ships  you are spotting yourself, Ships spotted by others are minimap only and only within 16km (radio range) 

new 3 point skill: double radio range (can detect enemy ships up to 32 km)

new 4 points skill: can see ships spotted by others within your radio range (cant lock on them)

slot 5 module: can lock on ships spotted by others 

 

the second big problem is the ammunition mechanics. A ships type having the upper hand vs another ship type is understandable and even a good thing to promote variety but when the game mechanics create hard counters like HE spam that destroy the value of armour or overmatch that is a gigantic middle finger for Cls then it's not a surprise players act so cowardly.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by pepe_trueno