Awful, useless, and pointless premiums

[Silence_CN]

11 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

That the one that is still basically a DD, and not a DDAA?

Usually play it with TRB, which can still be equipped, iirc.

Yes.
But, to be fair, I prefer play this way (with A hull) since I don't really like the speed and detection range of of her torps with B hull. More over, since she's got arguable guns, she loses 2 when swapping the hull.
t's a very personnal choice though and I can easily understand people playing her with the latter. It's just that I feel more at ease so...
As for AA, yes it's basically an DD, not an AA one. But it has better concealment than Farragut. And "can equip both the Engine Boost  and Defensive AA Fire  consumables (unlike Farragut, which must select one or the other)" (quote from the Wiki).
I like this DD : it is a good money maker... at least when I don't play like a stoopid. 😁

[Pugilistic]

On 12/7/2023 at 4:57 PM, Darlith said:

Knocking off snowflakes has reminded me of how many premiums I have collected most of them non-cash. Many of them are fun to play like Okhotnik or provide something different than their tech tree variants like Boise and Mainz. Others however are just plain awful like Bearn, or pointless like Gorizia.

This lead me to thinking, what are your worst, most pointless premiums.

For me the top is the aforementioned Gorizia, it feels like it is worse than the tech tree Zara in every way that matters. At least some other premiums similar to their tech tree counterparts gain something from tradeoffs like Salem or are similar enough to be worthwhile just for the bonuses like De Grasse. This one though I cannot figure a reason to use it over the Zara. 

Other honorable mentions include. The Bearn, I do operations and co-op mainly, carriers are limited usefulness to begin with and this is a distant cousin to any other I have. Marblehead, because I prefer the Omaha, but it isn't and awful choice just like more torps. And of course anything under t5 because as fun as some might be, they don't let me advance missions.

Bearn is the highest WR tier VI CV. Gorizia is in the top third of Tier VII cruisers. 

A lot of the ships I have seen mentioned in this thread are not bad, they just have specialized playstyle or a high floor. 

Edited January 15 by Pugilistic

[Darlith]

1 minute ago, Pugilistic said:

Bearn is the highest WR tier VI CV. Gorizia is in the top third of Tier VII cruisers. 

So as I said previously, their stats in randoms, or ranked or whatever do not matter to me. I state in the post you quoted that I play operations and mainly co-op. 

Gorizia I am sure has a great consumable combo against other players that when used right is amazing. In the modes I play however the pure guns comes up far short of the Zara, that is why I call it pointless for me. If I feel like playing an Italian cruiser I'm going to grab the tech tree versions for their flexibility in the modes I play.

Bearn I admit may be a skill issue for me, most of the time shooting down more bots planes is a side event, the extra AP bombs seem to mostly fall around the ships anyway so it might as well be dropping 2 for all the good it seems to do. I have so much trouble lining up skip bombs correctly. Oh and I'm crap at dodging flak so like I said skill issues. Aside from that it inherits the difficulty most of the carriers have in co-op with them not really lasting long enough to do good damage. I'm sure it is freaking amazing in the right hands and I insulted an entire lineage of players by calling it bad. But for me it is bad.

I started the thread because the snowflakes meant many were going through little played ships and I wanted to know which premiums they had that to them were bad or pointless and why. I asked a subjective question on purpose, we spend way too much effort in these games explaining why this ship is bad because it does .1% less dps than that one, I didn't just want a stat based conversation but one based on subjective experiences. I appreciated those responses that told me why personally people loved those ships however, so your two cents are still appreciated even if grounded in numbers as well.

[Pugilistic]

1 minute ago, Darlith said:

So as I said previously, their stats in randoms, or ranked or whatever do not matter to me. I state in the post you quoted that I play operations and mainly co-op. 

Gorizia I am sure has a great consumable combo against other players that when used right is amazing. In the modes I play however the pure guns comes up far short of the Zara, that is why I call it pointless for me. If I feel like playing an Italian cruiser I'm going to grab the tech tree versions for their flexibility in the modes I play.

Bearn I admit may be a skill issue for me, most of the time shooting down more bots planes is a side event, the extra AP bombs seem to mostly fall around the ships anyway so it might as well be dropping 2 for all the good it seems to do. I have so much trouble lining up skip bombs correctly. Oh and I'm crap at dodging flak so like I said skill issues. Aside from that it inherits the difficulty most of the carriers have in co-op with them not really lasting long enough to do good damage. I'm sure it is freaking amazing in the right hands and I insulted an entire lineage of players by calling it bad. But for me it is bad.

I started the thread because the snowflakes meant many were going through little played ships and I wanted to know which premiums they had that to them were bad or pointless and why. I asked a subjective question on purpose, we spend way too much effort in these games explaining why this ship is bad because it does .1% less dps than that one, I didn't just want a stat based conversation but one based on subjective experiences. I appreciated those responses that told me why personally people loved those ships however, so your two cents are still appreciated even if grounded in numbers as well.

Sorry, I missed that. I responded from the perspective of Randoms, which is WG's balancing standard. PvE and competitive modes clearly differ. 

[meatgrindr]

Kamikaze R.  Lol.  In a bubble, it looks like a bad premium on my list, XP is about 160 lower than my overall random XP.  And then I look at my Fujin, and it has a 200 XP point lead over Kami R. (and slightly above my overall average), roughly a 15% difference in those two ships, a sizeable amount.  So Fujin good, Kami R not so good, lol.  Funny how my own perspective can change on identical boats.

[Estimated_Prophet]

6 hours ago, Darlith said:

Gorizia I am sure has a great consumable combo against other players that when used right is amazing. In the modes I play however the pure guns comes up far short of the Zara, that is why I call it pointless for me. If I feel like playing an Italian cruiser I'm going to grab the tech tree versions for their flexibility in the modes I play.

Until I actually started on the Italian cruisers beyond the early access Montezouliwatzit, Gorizia was my highest tier Italian cruiser.

I have no love for SAP, but Gorizia's AP and occasionally the SAP mostly worked for me. (About all I ever played Italian cruisers was in Naval Battles.)

[Darlith]

13 hours ago, meatgrindr said:

Kamikaze R.  Lol.  In a bubble, it looks like a bad premium on my list, XP is about 160 lower than my overall random XP.  And then I look at my Fujin, and it has a 200 XP point lead over Kami R. (and slightly above my overall average), roughly a 15% difference in those two ships, a sizeable amount.  So Fujin good, Kami R not so good, lol.  Funny how my own perspective can change on identical boats.

Yeah situations like that are weird and interesting to hear about. For myself though I don't have enough battles in them to call it a proper pattern, the Yoshino B is largely outperforming the Yoshino in my hands. To be fair I have different captain builds on them though. Yoshino I was trying for survivability and Yoshino B is more damage oriented, which makes sense for the gap in damage just didn't expect it to be quite so pronounced. 

[Darlith]

7 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Until I actually started on the Italian cruisers beyond the early access Montezouliwatzit, Gorizia was my highest tier Italian cruiser.

I have no love for SAP, but Gorizia's AP and occasionally the SAP mostly worked for me. (About all I ever played Italian cruisers was in Naval Battles.)

Yeah the Gorizia in a funny one, it is why I called it pointless for me and not actually bad. I don't consider it a bad ship, I like the Italian cruiser guns in general, I just miss the torps anytime I use it in co-op. 

[Darlith]

With the season past now I thought of a couple more to add to my "Oh right that is why this ship gathers dust" list.

California - Yay just what I wanted another slow BB for co-op, and unlike say WV 41 I don't even get the advantage of nice guns at their tier. 

Huanghe - Though I do sometimes wish this had more guns,  this one isn't bad or pointless I just miss when operations were t6 and I used this there and wanted a place to say it without starting a whole new thread. Maybe I should to talk about the t6 and 7 premiums that got outclassed by the t8 cap.

Stord 43 - Look I don't think much of the euro dds for co-op anyway and a premium one isn't changing my mind. Might give it a go in operations though.

Leone - Too few torps for my taste, and the guns exist. I might take it over the tech tree ships simply because they do not excite me in any way. However I have so many premium DDs I actually want to pull out and play this one isn't even a consideration. I'll stick to, Agile, Monaghan, and Shinonome at that tier if I feel like premium DDs.
 

[Aethervox]

What are the parameters here? High tier premiums? Premiums you can't seem to win with? Premiums that are pale comparisons, in some manner, to their tech tree equivalent? I went thru my premiums to see which one I had an abysmal WR with that had a decent number of battles.

What came up for me was the Shinonome, 37 random battles  & a 32% WR. The indicated (perhaps, worst played premium ship) surprised me.  I wouldn't call this DD awful, useless or pointless.  I must be playing it wrong (I tend to be aggressive) tho I suspect part of the reason will be the MM giving me great love with such good team mates (rofl). 

[Darlith]

2 hours ago, Aethervox said:

What are the parameters here? High tier premiums? Premiums you can't seem to win with? Premiums that are pale comparisons, in some manner, to their tech tree equivalent? I went thru my premiums to see which one I had an abysmal WR with that had a decent number of battles.

What came up for me was the Shinonome, 37 random battles  & a 32% WR. The indicated (perhaps, worst played premium ship) surprised me.  I wouldn't call this DD awful, useless or pointless.  I must be playing it wrong (I tend to be aggressive) tho I suspect part of the reason will be the MM giving me great love with such good team mates (rofl). 

My intention was ANY premium ship that you personally find either awful, useless, or pointless by whatever reasoning you have.

That can be because you can't buy a win in it. Or maybe it just feels awful to play. Or maybe it brings nothing new to the table. Or maybe the tech tree versions are better. Or any other reason that you care to give.

I wanted to see some opinions because at the end of the day we can try to say this ship is objectively good and this ship is objectively bad. However, because we play them bad is more of a subjective thing. If you get 40% win rate in a ship everyone says is good, than it is bad for you. If you can take a POS and make it do a 65% win rate it doesn't matter if it is bad, for you it is a good ship.

Edited January 16 by Darlith
Added another paragraph

[XVirtusX]

Leone: The worst premium by far. Imagine a DD who is unable to damage a sub. Only luck can save a team that happens to have a Leone on their side.

Wichita: Much worse Baltimore

Rio de Janeiro: Much worse Agincourt

Saipan: Weakest tier 8 CV. Plane regen almost non-existant.

FR25: Poor concealment, DPM and torps. Gives too much for the crawling smoke gimmick with nothing in return

 

[ArIskandir]

4 hours ago, XVirtusX said:

Only luck can save a team that happens to have a Leone on their side.

Guess I'm lucky...

Afaik Leone finally got her Depth Charges... at least that's what the Devblog said. 

[XVirtusX]

51 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Guess I'm lucky...

Afaik Leone finally got her Depth Charges... at least that's what the Devblog said. 

C'mon, 6 battles? Try 60 and let me know.

And just checked, no, Leone still doesnt have depth charges. Although I also remember a devblog saying she would have it. That's strange.

[MnemonScarlet]

On 1/15/2024 at 12:27 PM, Pugilistic said:

A lot of the ships I have seen mentioned in this thread are not bad, they just have specialized playstyle or a high floor. 

Higher skill floor virtually ensures that there will be a bunch of average/below average players saying something is bad simply because they can't make it work/prefer ez-play features that exist on other ships that reduce the amount of mechanical or tactical proficiency needed to get more out of the ship.

Though that sometimes also leads to better players overvaluing a really difficult specialized ship because they can't see the context for the average player, too.

[ArIskandir]

42 minutes ago, XVirtusX said:

C'mon, 6 battles? Try 60 and let me know.

That's a challenge I would like to take as I consider Leone a decent gunboat for T6 (not sure where all the hate comes from tbh) but for:

A) I'm no longer playing WoWS (Forum closure did it for me)

B) 60 matches is a lot for me, probably would get bored half way (really, I only have like 5 ships with over 60 matches). 

C) T6 is a bit too close to seal clubbing for me, particularly on DDs... I might feel guilty of stat padding. 

Really, what's that bad about Leone? there are worse ships at T6... She has no relevant torps but you can gunboat comfortably with her range. 

[Nevermore135]

57 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Really, what's that bad about Leone? there are worse ships at T6... She has no relevant torps but you can gunboat comfortably with her range. 

I actually disagree wholeheartedly. She has good range but her poor shell ballistics limit her ability to utilize it, and close to 10s reload doesn’t help either. Combine that with sluggish handling and no ASW (although that has apparently finally been fixed?) and every time I take her out feels like a chore.

Leone sat in development hell for an eternity before finally being introduced as a free reward during the Italian BB launch, and her characteristics reflect that. I’ve always gotten the impression the devs didn’t really know what to do with her and just gave up trying at some point.

Edited January 18 by Nevermore135

[XVirtusX]

47 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

That's a challenge I would like to take as I consider Leone a decent gunboat for T6 (not sure where all the hate comes from tbh) but for:

A) I'm no longer playing WoWS (Forum closure did it for me)

B) 60 matches is a lot for me, probably would get bored half way (really, I only have like 5 ships with over 60 matches). 

C) T6 is a bit too close to seal clubbing for me, particularly on DDs... I might feel guilty of stat padding. 

Really, what's that bad about Leone? there are worse ships at T6... She has no relevant torps but you can gunboat comfortably with her range. 

Not sure if Leone is a gunboat. It's a hybrid at best. It has maybe the best torpedo range at its tier (12km), and also it loads fast (45 secs with proper commander skills). But its only 4 torpedoes and they are more like sea mines (only 51knots base)

Main battery has decent range but its reload is too long, almost cruiser levels (9.5 secs). But yeah, she can shine, every ship can shine, but some more than others. 🙂

[ArIskandir]

34 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

She has good range but her poor shell ballistics limit her ability to utilize it, and close to 10s reload doesn’t help either. Combine that with sluggish handling

The ballistics are not that bad for a T6, better than the USN and RN guns for sure. 12 km range at T6 is quite good and heer handling is decent enough to open water at that range imo, you can farm BBs all day long and even some cruisers with slow shells. The DPM is bad but your alpha is quite nice and workable for DD vs DD engagements if you have some consideration when picking your fights, your HP is decent to back it up. 

She's not awesome but I think she's workable. In some ways reminds me of a T6 Blyskawica. 

34 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

I’ve always gotten the impression the devs didn’t really know what to do with her and just gave up trying at some point.

I agree to that, if anything I feel Leone lacks a defined character... She's just bland. 

32 minutes ago, XVirtusX said:

Not sure if Leone is a gunboat.

She's a gunboat, the torps are just an area denial token, don't be deceived by their range. You can get some lucky hits but you won't get any reliable kills out of them. Use her like a pure long range Gunboat and you'll find her true niche.

Edited January 18 by ArIskandir

[BlueNautilus]

On 12/7/2023 at 9:57 PM, Darlith said:

This lead me to thinking, what are your worst, most pointless premiums.

  Lots of interesting views in this thread🙂

Of the premiums I have, the ones I think are utterly shit and useless are Monaghan and K. Schonberg.  They are painful to play and don't offer anything special over other comparable ships.

[mashed68]

5 hours ago, MnemonScarlet said:

Higher skill floor virtually ensures that there will be a bunch of average/below average players saying something is bad simply because they can't make it work/prefer ez-play features that exist on other ships that reduce the amount of mechanical or tactical proficiency needed to get more out of the ship.

 

So what your saying is a high skill floor ensures that 3/4 of the players don't like the ship. 
As the OP asked, "bad" is a relative term. 

[ArIskandir]

11 minutes ago, mashed68 said:

So what your saying is a high skill floor ensures that 3/4 of the players don't like the ship. 
As the OP asked, "bad" is a relative term. 

That's a more complex answer than it looks. What most folks understand by a bad or good ship is a composition between player+ship performance, sometimes a bad or good player performance masquerades the (potential) ship quality. So yes, it is possible for 3/4 of the players to dislike a ship but it still being objectively good. 

[Chysagon]

Purely an objective view for me--

The only ship i find awful is Saipan,no secondaries. Every othe CV can at least put up some defence if attacked at close range- My guess in randoms once yout team dies she dies quickly,if the match goes on long enough.

I can see the odd DD sneaking up the map to hit her at zero range.

But that lack of point blank defence on Saipan kills her for me.

She has good planes but in T10 matches they can get slaughtered by even some of the DDs.

Every other ship can be made to perform in at least one game mode or more.

Ships like Agincourt and Mikasa do well in co-op due to being brawlers/bot killers.

 

 

[Nevermore135]

3 hours ago, Chysagon said:

The only ship i find awful is Saipan,no secondaries. Every othe CV can at least put up some defence if attacked at close range- My guess in randoms once yout team dies she dies quickly,if the match goes on long enough.

You’ll be happy to know that she’s now been joined by Independence. The lack of secondaries for surface defense is largely a non-factor outside of Coop, though (and even questionably relevant there). It’s not like CV secondaries outside a few exceptions like GZ are really going to make a difference outside of the occasional meme kill on a careless DD or sub or a carrier artillery duel between ships with depleted air groups. You’re more likely to be dead far before they make any significant contribution, and I’d argue the effect is mostly psychological (nobody likes feeling helpless). The more significant effect of not having larger artillery is the lack of flak contributing to AA defense.

The CV rework was not kind to Saipan. Pre-rework she was an absolute monster at tier VII. Nowadays she is incredibly dependent on MM - she up-tiers quite poorly due to her slow plane regeneration.

Edited January 19 by Nevermore135

[Humility925]

I think Vlll Indomitable is worse CV I ever play, it's not very fun and enjoy to play, low damage, plane are so slow and easy destroyed by flaks. 

Second is that might be a Chkalov CV maybe, or saipan CV. 

But one could said T1 to T4 might be worthless due it's not help everyday goal of mission since most mission said need to be 5 to X, supership, but even they do allowed, it's not very quicker fill mission goal on based of whatever they set up goal sure base XP, credit, damage, so go on, T1 to T4 only gave you very tiny meaning you had to do lot of battle more than T10 or T8 do. 

 

Edited January 19 by Humility925