Meanwhile in Russia.......

[hipcanuck]

10 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

 

Just imagine what it could have been with even two properly implemented Cv's on one side. Better AA, Cv;s taking dmg to their plane producing modules to their plane handling......yep.With no spotting whatsoever.

 

The give on that would be gun ships having their main guns destroyed, like it was originally. It was not uncommon in the early days to see a Cleveland with no functioning main guns, or to see a Yamato close in on another BB and destroy both front turrets in one salvo.

AA is more effective than many think. One wrong move and poof, a whole flight of planes are gone, easily lost to most equal tier cruisers and some equal tier DD's. Even the FDR is prone to this despite its high HP aircraft, they are slow to turn and very slow to exit the AA bubble and forget about outrunning a recently spawned fighter CAP.

Some think that CV's have unlimited aircraft, but they do not. Only the very best CV players have unlimited aircraft because they are VERY good at avoiding flak and using islands as cover and understand which ships are simply bad to be around. Kaga for instance will run out of aircraft after around 100 combat planes are lost. That sounds like a lot but in a T10 environment, its not. 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

2 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

AA is more effective than many think.

LOL, no.

CV captain skill is way more effective at eliminating AA damage than most (including WG staff), believe.

[Andrewbassg]

57 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

It doesn't seem that way from my ear. Perhaps your words aren't conveying your intended meaning well enough.

Arguably you don't know me enough 🙂  I know Wolfie from way back.

 

58 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Combat is not honorable, nor is it conducted by universal rules.

I would word it differently. Combat is honourable, but there are no rules in war. Or in love 🙂 

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I'd bet it's way more like griefing than you believe.

Umm...I would say  people could find pleasure in griefing. But I wouldn't call rejoicing for citadelling a Mino, griefing. I mean.... is almost inevitable 

[ArIskandir]

6 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

AA is more effective than many think.

 

3 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

LOL, no.

CV captain skill is way more effective at eliminating AA damage than most (including WG staff), believe.

Both Yes and No... given the dual nature of AA split into Flak and DPS, there's this dual perception. 

But DPS is indeed very reliable, a good player will minimize the exposure time to some degree but there's still a price to pay and you can relay on DPS doing its job. 

[MnemonScarlet]

1 hour ago, hipcanuck said:

If the mini map spotting is introduced as planned (and as requested for in what was almost a different game back then!!), the pendulum may well again swing in favour of DD's. In the rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock game of WoWs, CV's were a hard counter to DD's running wild...prior to the abundance of radar!...

Invisi-firing is gone (good riddance), so DDs now have to smoke up or just hope they can juke better than you can shoot. Aside from certain DDs being run by good players, it's pretty easy to actually hit a DD even with a battleship once you get the lead and player behavior down. So it's very simple to just out-trade a DD with gunfire and force him to go dark. All they have left after that is torpedoes.

And this is without all the other elements that've changed from Beta/Release era WoWs as @ArIskandir has said, like how much hydro/radar there is, how many anti-DD DDs there are that just aren't very good at fighting bigger ships, etc. This isn't 2015 anymore where some DD can just torp you forever with his fat alpha low detection overtuned IJN torps.

So I'm not very worried about DDs attaining the level of dominance they used to have. And if you still want some kind of CV counter, just have dedicated spotting squadrons as also mentioned by @ArIskandir?

[hipcanuck]

2 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

LOL, no.

CV captain skill is way more effective at eliminating AA damage than most (including WG staff), believe.

Indeed. 11 pts of captain skills need to go to keeping planes alive. Still, it is not uncommon to end up with 50% of a squadron strength for takeoff near the end of the game, Ive never ended a game with more than 50% of squadrons available. 

AA is quite effective for a good 1/3 of the CV drivers out there. There are a shockingly large number of CV players who have sub 40% WR's with over 100 battles in a given ship.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

3 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

Indeed. 11 pts of captain skills need to go to keeping planes alive. Still, it is not uncommon to end up with 50% of a squadron strength for takeoff near the end of the game, Ive never ended a game with more than 50% of squadrons available. 

AA is quite effective for a good 1/3 of the CV drivers out there. There are a shockingly large number of CV players who have sub 40% WR's with over 100 battles in a given ship.

Indeed.

I almost rarely end up with such low reserves...and those are usually losses where I end up having to fly into stronger AA than is prudent.

Usually I have way more planes than I need.

[Andrewbassg]

31 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

The give on that would be gun ships having their main guns destroyed, like it was originally. It was not uncommon in the early days to see a Cleveland with no functioning main guns, or to see a Yamato close in on another BB and destroy both front turrets in one salvo.

 

Nah.....Colbert say hi. 🙂 The truth is all ships, even subs,  (during sub testing constantly pointed at that flaw regarding Cv's and "luckily" they listened) can lose modules either permanently (sec/aa mounts!!, torp tubes, and even main guns) or momentarily.

You know what happens if a torp DD doesnt repair his damaged tubes? Starts reload from zero.

All ships, except Cv's. Coz the class is so powerful, that it "needs all the protection". In a.... PVP.....game. You know how much resentiment this could ( and will) create? How much of an idiocy this is?

31 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

AA is more effective than many think. One wrong move and poof, a whole flight of planes are gone, easily lost to most equal tier cruisers and some equal tier DD's. Even the FDR is prone to this despite its high HP aircraft, they are slow to turn and very slow to exit the AA bubble and forget about outrunning a recently spawned fighter CAP.

 

No......especially now, that all friendly AA targets only 1 plane at a time. And AA lacks the most crucial and also historical element: deterrence.

31 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

Some think that CV's have unlimited aircraft, but they do not. Only the very best CV players have unlimited aircraft because they are VERY good at avoiding flak and using islands as cover and understand which ships are simply bad to be around. Kaga for instance will run out of aircraft after around 100 combat planes are lost. That sounds like a lot but in a T10 environment, its not. 

it doesn't matter, coz as the game is progressing AA is getting weaker and weaker. And frankly... that's just the icing on the cake, given all the other issues.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[Sailor_Moon]

44 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

 

Both Yes and No... given the dual nature of AA split into Flak and DPS, there's this dual perception. 

But DPS is indeed very reliable, a good player will minimize the exposure time to some degree but there's still a price to pay and you can relay on DPS doing its job. 

I think the problem comes from what I would term "skill disparity". Observe the CV skill tree:

21 of these skills buff planes. (And if you subtract the fighter-specific skills, that's still a whopping 16 skills to buff planes with.)

As you can see...the optimal build for CVs buffs planes. It buffs their primary attack(s) constantly, and therefore isn't highly situational in a lot of cases. You will obviously take skills that buff your planes to be more damaging, faster, take less damage from AA, etc.

Now let's take a look-see at..... the battleship skill tree, for example (this also applies to cruiser and DD skill trees though):

2 of these skills buff AA. (technically 3 with AR but barely because in order to get the AR AA boost, you need to take damage, and chances are you've lost AA mounts at that point...)

AA for surface ships are highly situational by nature. And unfortunately, AA skills ingame are NOT worthwhile enough to base your build around. Not when pitted against other far more important skills like (in this battleship example) Grease The Gears, Fire Prevention, Adrenaline Rush and Concealment Expert. But the same applies for Cruiser skills, or Destroyer skills. They all have far more important skills to take to actually buff their combat performance.

So ultimately, we have *buffed* planes attacking unbuffed AA, more often than not. 

Another issue is that AA cannot be restored once destroyed. So in a few decent HE volleys, your AA strength is PERMANENTLY diminished. You also cannot buff your AA range to increase the effectiveness of your continuous AA and flak. There are extremely select cases where you'd actually build into AA. It's even more situational imo than buffing secondaries. Yes, it's THAT situational.

So really, it's "darned if you do, darned if you don't" for surface ships not named CVs. If you buff your AA, you potentially run the risk of having completely useless skills if CVs aren't present and/or if planes don't attack you. That's a waste of precious skill points (5 or 6 skill points, depending on the build). If you don't buff your AA, you WILL be facing buffed planes when CVs are present in a match, when they target you. That is all but a guarantee. There is zero reason for CV players to NOT buff their planes (unless they're using a ship 100% stock lols).

And even if you buff your AA, HE can ruin your build by permanently destroying your AA. So that's something to consider as well. All in all....it ain't great.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Sailor_Moon

[ArIskandir]

12 minutes ago, Sailor_Moon said:

AA skills ingame are NOT worthwhile enough to base your build around.

I kinda disagree in that the skills offer substancial benefits for an AA build. As long as your base AA DPS is good enough, a full AA build will swat planes left and right. The question has always been the overall usefulness of a full AA build, accounting the things you need to sacrifice (which is OK imo, you also sacrifice a lot by going for a full SecSpec build for example). It is far from sure you will reap consistent benefits from a full AA build, that's the core issue, not the objective effectiveness of the build (they can be pretty effective). 

[Sailor_Moon]

Just now, ArIskandir said:

I kinda disagree in that the skills offer substancial benefits for an AA build. As long as your base AA DPS is good enough, a full AA build will swat planes left and right. The question has always been the overall usefulness of a full AA build, accounting the things you need to sacrifice (which is OK imo, you also sacrifice a lot by going for a full SecSpec build for example). It is far from sure you will reap consistent benefits from a full AA build, that's the core issue, not the objective effectiveness of the build (they can be pretty effective). 

Which I've already discussed in my post. I have already demonstrated that there are far more valuable skills to take to buff your ship than AA skills. I've also discussed the disparity of CV vs surface ship interactions, taking the captain skills into account.

Also, I never said that AA skills offer substantial benefits for an AA build. In fact, they DON'T, that's why they're not really worth building into.

Also, that's a bit of an over-exaggeration to claim that a full AA build will swat planes left and right, but I suppose you're talking about the very select few examples of ships that could potentially build into AA. (ie. ships that have very high AA values and have the right skills/abilities to buff AA values, like DFAA and high Hit Probability modifiers.)

[Admiral_Karasu]

1 minute ago, Sailor_Moon said:

Which I've already discussed in my post. I have already demonstrated that there are far more valuable skills to take to buff your ship than AA skills. I've also discussed the disparity of CV vs surface ship interactions, taking the captain skills into account.

Also, I never said that AA skills offer substantial benefits for an AA build. In fact, they DON'T, that's why they're not really worth building into.

Also, that's a bit of an over-exaggeration to claim that a full AA build will swat planes left and right, but I suppose you're talking about the very select few examples of ships that could potentially build into AA. (ie. ships that have very high AA values and have the right skills/abilities to buff AA values, like DFAA and high Hit Probability modifiers.)

What really is a 'high AA value'? And are those values we see on different ships for AA directly comparable?

[Sailor_Moon]

Just now, Admiral_Karasu said:

What really is a 'high AA value'? And are those values we see on different ships for AA directly comparable?

the best example I can give would be comparing something like California's AA to say, De Zeven Provincien. 

California's unbuffed AA:

As you can see, she has reasonably high numbers...on first glance. But since Hit Chance exists(aka Hit Probability modifier), those numbers are actually cut down drastically, as much as 30%. Compare to De Zeven:

  

She has much higher hit chance. this means she's outputting even higher AA damage (especially her mid-range AA). In addition, cruisers inherently get a higher Sector Reinforcement bonus (50% instead of 35%). As such, De Zeven can pump up her numbers using Sector Reinforcement (which itself can be buffed to 75% instead of 50%). So in short, while California does indeed have Tier VIII-level AA, she cannot really build into it effectively enough to justify building around AA. De Zeven could potentially do so, on the other hand. However, she is a very select case where building for AA MIGHT work out. This won't work for EVERY cruiser. Same goes for DDs, only select DDs MIGHT get value out of building for AA. (Halland, off the top of my head...)

Also, De Zeven has like 6.9km and 4km range AA to boot. Cali's got...5.8km, 35.km, and 2km max. So there's that too.)

[hipcanuck]

2 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

Nah.....Colbert say hi. 🙂 The truth is all ships, even subs,  (during sub testing constantly pointed at that flaw regarding Cv's and "luckily" they listened) can lose modules either permanently (sec/aa mounts!!, torp tubes, and even main guns) or momentarily.

You know what happens if a torp DD doesnt repair his damaged tubes? Starts reload from zero.

All ships, except Cv's. Coz the class is so powerful, that it "needs all the protection". In a.... PVP.....game. You know how much resentiment this could ( and will) create? How much of an idiocy this is?

No......especially now, that all friendly AA targets only 1 plane at a time. And AA lacks the most crucial and also historical element: deterrence.

it doesn't matter, coz as the game is progressing AA is getting weaker and weaker. And frankly... that's just the icing on the cake, given all the other issues.

You need to spend some time in a CV to experience AA first hand. Light AA only targets one plane at a time but light AA can add up quick if there are 2 ships together and flak targets all or some, slower planes are particularly vulnerable to flak

You may think that CV's are god mode and represent everything evil in the game but its much easier to do far more damage in a BB, and do it MUCH faster, all while under minimal risk for the first half of the game. The best defense against a ship targeting you or a DD torping you is to not drive in a straight line and change speed. Coincidentally, that is also the best defense against a CV. Sure, a CV's planes can change approach but that is longer in the bubble

As for AA modules being permanently destroyed, Ive been against that from day 1. Same with torp tubes being destroyed ....stupid idea. 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

13 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

You need to spend some time in a CV to experience AA first hand. Light AA only targets one plane at a time but light AA can add up quick if there are 2 ships together and flak targets all or some, slower planes are particularly vulnerable to flak

You may think that CV's are god mode and represent everything evil in the game but its much easier to do far more damage in a BB, and do it MUCH faster, all while under minimal risk for the first half of the game. The best defense against a ship targeting you or a DD torping you is to not drive in a straight line and change speed. Coincidentally, that is also the best defense against a CV. Sure, a CV's planes can change approach but that is longer in the bubble

As for AA modules being permanently destroyed, Ive been against that from day 1. Same with torp tubes being destroyed ....stupid idea. 

Flak doesn't target single planes. Flak is entirely within the control of the carrier player.

Fully agree that many players fail to realize how potent a mitigation their rudder can be.

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 hours ago, hipcanuck said:

They could expand on this by allowing BB and cruiser spotters to fly to a waypoint and spot.

The Hybrid BB's, such as the Ise and the Nebraska already provide spotting with their planes.
The planes are manually controlled by the player, the same way a CV's squadrons are flown.
The spotting ends as soon as the planes are shot-down or expend their ordnance or return to the ship.

[Sailor_Moon]

1 hour ago, hipcanuck said:

You may think that CV's are god mode and represent everything evil in the game but its much easier to do far more damage in a BB, and do it MUCH faster, all while under minimal risk for the first half of the game.

Actually, I'd argue the opposite:

- CV damage values tend to hover around battleship values. Even a Wargaming CM highly knowledgeable about CVs acknowledged this about a year ago on WoWs Forums (RIP WoWs Forums).

- CVs have fast/long-ranged planes and therefore have extremely high spotting power. Something BBs usually count on other ships for (DDs and maybe cruisers), especially if played at range. Can BBs spot CVs at the beginning of the match? Didn't think so, unless said BB was helped by.....you guessed it, CV plane spotting.

- CVs can also deliver their damage more efficiently and with minimal return fire since the CV doesn't have to fire guns like surface ships and therefore doesn't have to be spotted when attacking. The CV hull is rarely risked during a CV plane attack, and as such, the CV can continue to operate (send planes out to attack ships, spot enemy ships for friendlies) without hindrance.

Quote

As for AA modules being permanently destroyed, Ive been against that from day 1. Same with torp tubes being destroyed ....stupid idea. 

This we definitely agree on though. 🤝

Edited December 2, 2023 by Sailor_Moon

[Andrewbassg]

2 hours ago, hipcanuck said:

You may think that CV's are god mode and represent everything evil in the game

No 🙂  I don't think that they are Godmode. But their spotting is.... "quite wicked" ( to continue with the folksie aphorisms) and have no place in the game. Honest to God if spotting would be removed, I would make truce with them.

2 hours ago, hipcanuck said:

....but its much easier to do far more damage in a BB, and do it MUCH faster, all while under minimal risk for the first half of the game.

Yes, but Bb;s are a tactical class, while Cv;s are a strategic class in a tactical environment. Cv's have magnitude time bigger battle influence, as any other class. While enjoying countless artificial protections, coz reasons.

2 hours ago, hipcanuck said:

The best defense against a ship targeting you or a DD torping you is to not drive in a straight line and change speed. Coincidentally, that is also the best defense against a CV. Sure, a CV's planes can change approach but that is longer in the bubbl

 

Yes, except it doesn't matter, because they also spot in the meantime, causally and effortlessly exposing surface ships, to (possibly) concentrated and/or crossfire . And even if they stay in the bubble,  unless tier difference, they will still manage to attack, coz, again, reasons.

 

And wait, that's just randoms, but  how about reduced line ups like ....ranked? Yeah, there we go...

2 hours ago, hipcanuck said:

As for AA modules being permanently destroyed, Ive been against that from day 1. Same with torp tubes being destroyed ....stupid idea. 

I don't agree. That actually opens up multiple tactical possibilities and diversifies game play. The problems is only Cv's don't have the same weaknesses. And that again pushes the class even further apart from the other classes. Wedgie effectively created a monster, "the final boss" from PVE games. While there they have their place.....not so much in PVP.

 

2 hours ago, hipcanuck said:

You need to spend some time in a CV to experience AA first hand. Light AA only targets one plane at a time but light AA can add up quick if there are 2 ships together and flak targets all or some, slower planes are particularly vulnerable to flak

 

AA, in the current game format, is impossible to be balanced out. Until Cv;s can see +/- 2 tiers.......there is simply no way to do that. That's why Cvs were initially different tiered. it was a good setup, Well....

 

As for playing Cv's, .....sorry, not my cup of tea. The constant rinse/repeat and against the clock.....no thanks 🙂.  I played them a bit  in ops but... even there me no gusto. I'll stick with my cruisers 🙂 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 hour ago, Andrewbassg said:

No 🙂  I don't think that they are Godmode.

No, they are effectively God mode...a mode I play and enjoy.

ESPECIALLY when WG is trying to force bad results or when I'm grumpy.

1 hour ago, Andrewbassg said:

The problems is only Cv's don't have the same weaknesses

All classes have different weaknesses...the problem is that WG has bent over backwards to prevent CV weaknesses from actually existing in a meaningful way.

1 hour ago, Andrewbassg said:

And wait, that's just randoms, but  how about reduced line ups like ....ranked? Yeah, there we go...

Don't forget that ranked is usually single or double tier...so the CV is never -2 bottom tier in those modes...

Yet more advantage...

1 hour ago, Andrewbassg said:

As for playing Cv's, .....sorry, not my cup of tea. The constant rinse/repeat and against the clock.....no thanks 🙂.  I played them a bit  in ops but... even there me no gusto. I'll stick with my cruisers 🙂 

You do you...but understand some people will discount your opinions persuasiveness because you don't have much experience captaining these Gods of the battlefield.

[Andrewbassg]

23 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

No, they are effectively God mode...a mode I play and enjoy.

    So here is a song as accompaniment.... 

.....from a time when performers still had their cloths on and could actually sing,  even live...

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[Guest]

#1 CV annoyance. 

You've played a good game, capped, engaged brawled struggled to survive. The game is near over, your health is shot because you've been engaged entire game, you're near the point of a hard earned win and the &%$# CV who hasn't done crap all game on the red side gets that one lucky hit, sinks you and it's all for naught. It's a BS class that rewards poor play and removes fun from every game they are in. I hate them and always will. 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

34 minutes ago, Kalishnikat said:

#1 CV annoyance. 

You've played a good game, capped, engaged brawled struggled to survive. The game is near over, your health is shot because you've been engaged entire game, you're near the point of a hard earned win and the &%$# CV who hasn't done crap all game on the red side gets that one lucky hit, sinks you and it's all for naught. It's a BS class that rewards poor play and removes fun from every game they are in. I hate them and always will. 

...as if that CV doesn't live for the moment to carry the team with that skill based hit...

😉

[Admiral_Karasu]

8 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

...as if that CV doesn't live for the moment to carry the team with that skill based hit...

😉

Quite. True mastery is knowing when to use your skill.  Ee... that's why I'm still waiting for that opportune moment to do it.

[Aethervox]

On 12/1/2023 at 5:08 AM, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

What really needs to happen is an overhaul of concealment mechanics.

ROFL!

Like the reworked CVs? What got overhauled after that? ROFL.

Let's bend, fold, staple & mutilate a whole lot more.

Bending, folding, stapling & mutilating is what WG does so well.

[Admiral_Karasu]

14 hours ago, Aethervox said:

ROFL!

Like the reworked CVs? What got overhauled after that? ROFL.

Let's bend, fold, staple & mutilate a whole lot more.

Bending, folding, stapling & mutilating is what WG does so well.

Let's give WG credit where it's due, for creating a very great game and then expertly screwing it up.