Meanwhile in Russia.......

[Andrewbassg]

1 hour ago, New_Jersey_prpr said:

The CV spotting mechanic change, while being a good change overall, also makes submarine less vulderable, or let's be straightforward, buffing submarines.

Well....I saw that argument made and I disagree. Minimap awareness, general situational awareness and RPF, all can and should substitute. Not to mention that a Cv shouldn't waste resources( time. attention, consumables) on subs, because lacks the tools to deal with them. 

1 hour ago, New_Jersey_prpr said:

From what I heard from people playing on RU server, many players at that server lacks skill, which can be a potential reason RU server is even buffing subs.

Yes, there are significant differences between servers, as tactics,skill distribution, and also class based skill distribution.

in my experience, NA excels at BB's, lacks on cruisers and .....dd's are not really worth to mention 🙂 . There are exceptions, but tend to reinforce the "rule", so to speak. EU tends to be (not polar,opposite  but) the other way around. Babbies are questionable, cruisers can be good and Dd's decide matches.

On Ru I don't have experience, but to my understanding they are lacking not in skill, but "finesse", and tend to play "press W" 🙂 

1 hour ago, New_Jersey_prpr said:

As for those T11 subs, definitely not something I want to see, it's sad that Lesta put their effort in those stuff.

It was kinda expected, given the.... tradition of their navy. There is a good reason why people tended to mock in game RU lines 🙂

 

[Andrewbassg]

1 hour ago, Kratbowl said:

By the way, I somehow missed the moment when Flamu was bought by Lesta. At first I thought it was some kind of joke. And “meanwhile in Russia” they are introducing super-subs (2 at once!) into the test in 13.0, do you really need it? Is this what you crave?

🙂 There is a day difference between those two devblog entries. 

[Admiral_Karasu]

10 hours ago, MrWastee said:

less immersive, less interactive. people come to play wheee, not clicking on a map or looking at an empty screen. and these occasions would get more frequent, as players would see way less of everything in matches overall. do i need to point on the reasoning for the reeeework? action baby, that's what we need lol^^...

i'm sry, but won't happen, simple. if they now tweak spotting on planes it brings those in line with the given mechanics finally. no way they'd rebuild spotting fully afterwards.

Action sure. It's like waiting for your paint to dry while you're house is on fire kind of action. True, these changes are not likely to happen. I try to spend as little time in randoms as possible, myself, so for me it's more relevant what will happen with the operations.

[Wolfswetpaws]

5 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

All of that are very good points. Still...

Cv's drove more people off from this game than anything else, arguably combined. There is no such thing as "enough" criticism, levelled against the class...

And EU was always much more combative, on this subject, also generally,then NA. There is a reason why Eu mods insituted those two( CV, Sub) megathreads and banned otherwise  discussions about the subjects. Well....it was also "convenient".....

I was asked if I ever got upset about anything.  So, I made a short list.
I'm well aware that not everyone shares my enthusiasm for CV game-play.
Thanks for saying at least some of the items in my short list were agreeable with you, all the same.  🙂 

4 hours ago, Kalishnikat said:

CVs are a trash class. They exist to dishearten other players. Game tonight, I killed my oppsing BBs, captured 2 caps, time was ticking away but to our win but I get killed by the CV which spends its game sitting far away in safety existing only to sh*t on other players who actually play the game. Nothing I could do. There is NOTHING in gaming more frustrating than an opponent  that you can't counter. I can't tell you the number of times CVs have made me curse at this game. The entire experience would be so much more fun without them.

I welcome your candor.  I imagine telling us how you really feel might be cathartic.  🙂 
That said, I tend to simply sail towards the CV, in whatever ship I'm playing, and blap it with the weapons available to my ship.

The only two CV's in my Fleet which don't have at least one Close Quarters Expert achievement are the Saipan and the Sanzang.
That's because they're not equipped with secondary-battery guns (and not because I haven't taken those ships into brawls).  🙂  

I think it's less about the ship and more about the player.  🙂 
When I'm not getting sunk for the crazy stunts that I've pulled in this game, it is very satisfying when some of my foolhardy plans actually work.  🙂 
 

[Wolfswetpaws]

5 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

6 hours ago, New_Jersey_prpr said:

The CV spotting mechanic change, while being a good change overall, also makes submarine less vulderable, or let's be straightforward, buffing submarines.

Well....I saw that argument made and I disagree. Minimap awareness, general situational awareness and RPF, all can and should substitute. Not to mention that a Cv shouldn't waste resources( time. attention, consumables) on subs, because lacks the tools to deal with them. 

Many CV's in the game are now equipped with Depthcharge Airstrikes, as I imagine you're aware.
That said, the squadrons can hit a submarine while it is surfaced.  I've even torpedoed submarines while playing a CV.  (Granted it is rare, and requires a submarine to be inatttentive or to have exhausted its dive capacity.)

You would be correct to point out that a CV is not equipped with Hydro-acoustic-search.
That said, the reconnaisance provided by squadrons and the sinking of other red-team ships may provide opportunities for the green-team's other ships to perform ASW more effectively.  Good old fashioned teamwork, eh?

[Itwastuesday]

Removing spotting from sky cancer sounds good, although it makes him even more of a wandering damage system than a member of the team. 

Best would be to shove sub and carrier into their own queue where they can grief bots and each other in lieu of removing them entirely.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

17 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

Removing spotting from sky cancer sounds good, although it makes him even more of a wandering damage system than a member of the team. 

Best would be to shove sub and carrier into their own queue where they can grief bots and each other in lieu of removing them entirely.

The whole point of the game is to grief other ships...

Every class does it.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

8 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

All of that are very good points. Still...

Cv's drove more people off from this game than anything else, arguably combined. There is no such thing as "enough" criticism, levelled against the class...

And EU was always much more combative, on this subject, also generally,then NA. There is a reason why Eu mods insituted those two( CV, Sub) megathreads and banned otherwise  discussions about the subjects. Well....it was also "convenient".....

Please direct the ire where it belongs, at WG staff...not the players.

[Admiral_Karasu]

14 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Please direct the ire where it belongs, at WG staff...not the players.

Well it is WG who effed up the CV's royally and the game itself as a result of that back in 2019.

[Andrewbassg]

57 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Please direct the ire where it belongs, at WG staff...not the players.

Ire? No sir, there is no... "ire". And made it quite clear.

9 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

There is no such thing as "enough" criticism, levelled against the class...

 I like to be clear in my wording and if there would have been ire.....it would have been crystal clear.

While I know the "game" and I'm very good at......i have no intention to play it.

i want this place to be friendly, open, not adversarial. And  I don't wan't this place to became a cesspool, either way. Ecochambers are anything but healthy. 

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

The whole point of the game is to grief other ships...

Every class does it.

And no, combat  (even if uneven) and griefing is not the same.

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[hipcanuck]

On 11/30/2023 at 5:52 PM, Andrewbassg said:

Just think about it how much it would help the game, if they would reduce the pressure created by subs and Cv's by removing the no1 reason why Cv's are hated.

So, some history on this idea of mini map spotting.

I, and a few other CV drivers, were hard core advocates of this idea during beta testing, where CV's reigned supreme. In their absence, DD's were the next most important ship because not only could they spot, they could also fire and stay hidden in plain sight, no smoke, no islands, just invisi fire and burn your ship to the waterline.

DD's have always been powerful in spotting and area denial (or high hazard areas) with torps. CV spotting and rockets made DD's fodder for cruisers, secondaries and planes. 

Now, CV's can spot DD's but only a few CV's can reliably deal damage to them as the leadup time with rockets is obscene for some CV's (11 seconds for FDR for instance).

If the mini map spotting is introduced as planned (and as requested for in what was almost a different game back then!!), the pendulum may well again swing in favour of DD's. In the rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock game of WoWs, CV's were a hard counter to DD's running wild...prior to the abundance of radar!...

There is no balance change WG or Lesta can bring to the game that will not significantly alter other issues that have been brought on by other changes

[Admiral_Karasu]

19 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

So, some history on this idea of mini map spotting.

I, and a few other CV drivers, were hard core advocates of this idea during beta testing, where CV's reigned supreme. In their absence, DD's were the next most important ship because not only could they spot, they could also fire and stay hidden in plain sight, no smoke, no islands, just invisi fire and burn your ship to the waterline.

DD's have always been powerful in spotting and area denial (or high hazard areas) with torps. CV spotting and rockets made DD's fodder for cruisers, secondaries and planes. 

Now, CV's can spot DD's but only a few CV's can reliably deal damage to them as the leadup time with rockets is obscene for some CV's (11 seconds for FDR for instance).

If the mini map spotting is introduced as planned (and as requested for in what was almost a different game back then!!), the pendulum may well again swing in favour of DD's. In the rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock game of WoWs, CV's were a hard counter to DD's running wild...prior to the abundance of radar!...

There is no balance change WG or Lesta can bring to the game that will not significantly alter other issues that have been brought on by other changes

While on the subject, do you happen to recall what were the changes WG made to the CV's just prior to the game going into open beta?

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 hour ago, Andrewbassg said:

Ire? No sir, there is no... "ire". And made it quite clear.

It doesn't seem that way from my ear. Perhaps your words aren't conveying your intended meaning well enough.

1 hour ago, Andrewbassg said:

And no, combat  (even if uneven) and griefing is not the same.

Combat is not honorable, nor is it conducted by universal rules.

I'd bet it's way more like griefing than you believe.

[ArIskandir]

52 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

If the mini map spotting is introduced as planned (and as requested for in what was almost a different game back then!!), the pendulum may well again swing in favour of DD's. In the rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock game of WoWs, CV's were a hard counter to DD's running wild...prior to the abundance of radar!...

I don't think mini map spotting would unbalance DD performance all that much, after all as you point out today there's a Radar on every corner, plus lots of Hydro, Submarines and a lot of specialized HK DDs to keep DDs in check. 

[ArIskandir]

Just because why not, a mid-way solution I've floated many times before...

Remove direct spotting from active squadrons as proposed in test.

Split Figther consumable into either Interceptors or Spotter.

Interceptor works as enhanced interceptors per Bearn style, they can't spot. 

Spotter works like current Fighter in terms of spotting, but they don't engage/intercept anything.

Interceptors can engage and shot down Spotters without despawing the full squadron, they "spend" only one plane while intercepting a Spotter.

So CVs can still support by spotting but spotting is not a "free" byproduct of just flying your planes.

[Admiral_Karasu]

4 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Just because why not, a mid-way solution I've floated many times before...

Remove direct spotting from active squadrons as proposed in test.

Split Figther consumable into either Interceptors or Spotter.

Interceptor works as enhanced interceptors per Bearn style, they can't spot. 

Spotter works like current Fighter in terms of spotting, but they don't engage/intercept anything.

Interceptors can engage and shot down Spotters without despawing the full squadron, they "spend" only one plane while intercepting a Spotter.

So CVs can still support by spotting but spotting is not a "free" byproduct of just flying your planes.

I have a simpler solution. Run CAP's.

[ArIskandir]

5 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

I have a simpler solution. Run CAP's.

Can you elaborate?

[hipcanuck]

42 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

While on the subject, do you happen to recall what were the changes WG made to the CV's just prior to the game going into open beta?

The only one I can recall is CV mirror matchmaking, but this may have been right after release. It was clear by then that the team with the CV won most of the time. It should be noted that prior to CV mirror MM, the teams were 'open', any ship class could be on any team and it was WG intent to have all ships 'equal'. However, it quickly became obvious that in the absence of CV's, DD's decided the match. Whichever team had the last surviving, or in some cases the only, DD in the match would usually win.

CV drivers complained loudly that the game was not ready for retail, CV's were too powerful, good CV players would easily get 3 or more dev strikes per match, Ryujo strike setup was particularly nasty with 3 TB squads and 2 DB squads. The good drivers would set up the cross drop, swap out to the DB's, line up the drop, switch back to the TB, do the drops, switch back to the DB's and bam.....equal tier BB would either be dead or mostly dead.

WG rushed WoWs into 'retail' because they were afraid of NavyField2 competition as many NF1 players like myself joined WoWs alpha and beta testing. Some of the WoWs original dev team played NF1....now that game defined the word grind! It could literally take a year to get the top tier ship of a given line!

[Admiral_Karasu]

9 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Can you elaborate?

Basically, if you want CV's to spot in any capacity, the simplest way is to have CV's run combat area patrols on the map. Since that would make their spotting OP in the present system, my suggestion would be that there'd have to be at least some kind of a change towards mini map spotting.

A) only mini map spotting (which would be in line with Lesta testing, I think).

B) mini map spotting coupled with visual spotting if the planes are within a certain range of the ship/ships they are spotting.

[hipcanuck]

15 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Just because why not, a mid-way solution I've floated many times before...

Remove direct spotting from active squadrons as proposed in test.

Split Figther consumable into either Interceptors or Spotter.

Interceptor works as enhanced interceptors per Bearn style, they can't spot. 

Spotter works like current Fighter in terms of spotting, but they don't engage/intercept anything.

Interceptors can engage and shot down Spotters without despawing the full squadron, they "spend" only one plane while intercepting a Spotter.

So CVs can still support by spotting but spotting is not a "free" byproduct of just flying your planes.

Thats not a bad idea at all. They could expand on this by allowing BB and cruiser spotters to fly to a waypoint and spot.

They could also allow CV's to tag a friendly ship to drop fighters on to escort a specific ship. As a CV driver, its infuriating to respond to a fighter cover request only to watch that ship sail out from under your fighters and then get attacked by planes lol

[Admiral_Karasu]

Just now, hipcanuck said:

Thats not a bad idea at all. They could expand on this by allowing BB and cruiser spotters to fly to a waypoint and spot.

They could also allow CV's to tag a friendly ship to drop fighters on to escort a specific ship. As a CV driver, its infuriating to respond to a fighter cover request only to watch that ship sail out from under your fighters and then get attacked by planes lol

Well, a ship that's dead in the water... will be dead under water.

[Andrewbassg]

1 hour ago, hipcanuck said:

 

Very good points. But i have better ones  (insert shy smile)

1 hour ago, hipcanuck said:

I, and a few other CV drivers, were hard core advocates of this idea during beta testing, where CV's reigned supreme. 

 

And it was a good idea. Arguably even minimap spotting is too much. No long ranged class in a PvP environment should be able to spot, not only for himself, but for the entire team, without associated and specific risks. it is the biggest idiocy ever invented for such a genre. And created a monster, which still haunts its creators.

1 hour ago, hipcanuck said:

In their absence, DD's were the next most important ship because not only could they spot, they could also fire and stay hidden in plain sight, no smoke, no islands, just invisi fire and burn your ship to the waterline.

 

Yes, invisible fire was also arguably another such idiocy. But either Wedgie ( or the players) come to senses and it was removed. Ergo the reason for spotting by planes was removed. But spotting itself, not.

But lo and behold ,Invisi fire  RETURNED,  coz that's what subs are.

1 hour ago, hipcanuck said:

DD's have always been powerful in spotting and area denial (or high hazard areas) with torps. CV spotting and rockets made DD's fodder for cruisers, secondaries and planes. 

 

Yes, arguably Dd's are a high risk/high reward class, still the game has changed considerably in disfavour of them. The nerf of defense ribbons, the insane proliferation of planes, of radars, of rapid firing guns, subs... all affected the class.

1 hour ago, hipcanuck said:

Now, CV's can spot DD's but only a few CV's can reliably deal damage to them as the leadup time with rockets is obscene for some CV's (11 seconds for FDR for instance).

The rocket nerf had nothing to do with dd's and everything with subs. Even tho Wedgie constantly denied, it is quite obvious. Cv attack fighters had the alpha to one shot them and Wedgie couldn't afford that to happen.

As for spotting.....everybody and their mother shoots at Dd's on sight, even if for good reason, so....and remember, there are not 9 ships but 12.

1 hour ago, hipcanuck said:

If the mini map spotting is introduced as planned (and as requested for in what was almost a different game back then!!),

It would only help, because today's Wows is a very, very, VERY different game than was, even 2 years ago.

1 hour ago, hipcanuck said:

...the pendulum may well again swing in favour of DD's. In the rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock game of WoWs,..

The pendulum can't be altered. It is LONG gone. The proliferation of overmatch, the "funny" buttons, subs, hybrids.... all made it a distant memory.

Wedgie has only interests and a balanced game is... not one of his priorities. Over the top sells and Wedgie, sadly, follows the money.

What remains is the possibility to have fun, or not. 

1 hour ago, hipcanuck said:

CV's were a hard counter to DD's running wild...prior to the abundance of radar!.

The problem is Cv's have no counter, themselves. Wedgie made a colossal  mistake, by not going the extra mile and making Cv;s more in line with other ships .They retained their strategic powers and influence, while not losing much.

Just imagine what it could have been with even two properly implemented Cv's on one side. Better AA, Cv;s taking dmg to their plane producing modules to their plane handling......yep.With no spotting whatsoever.

And they've  done the very same crap with subs also, the only difference being subs, luckily, can't strike all over the map. But otherwise...it  is the same crap. 

1 hour ago, hipcanuck said:

There is no balance change WG or Lesta can bring to the game that will not significantly alter other issues that have been brought on by other changes

The culprit remains the initial sin, botched Cv rework and Wedgie's inability to understand their own game.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[Sailor_Moon]

On 11/30/2023 at 5:22 PM, Andrewbassg said:

This fact makes clear how much Wedgie was gaslighting the playerbase, and for how long. They pretended (for years!!) that it was tested (and found "inadequate" , but... if it was tested, there would not be a need for a second round of testing. So yeah......Wedgie is full of it. And not just a little. Waay above the neck.

[Sailor_Moon]

23 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

I have a simpler solution. Run CAP's.

Which is also (as a bonus because yes, we know WoWs is arcade city) historical in its concept! 😄

[ArIskandir]

22 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

Thats not a bad idea at all. They could expand on this by allowing BB and cruiser spotters to fly to a waypoint and spot.

They could also allow CV's to tag a friendly ship to drop fighters on to escort a specific ship. As a CV driver, its infuriating to respond to a fighter cover request only to watch that ship sail out from under your fighters and then get attacked by planes lol

I would love if the same principle were applied to ship-borne planes, either a choice of Spotter working as you say, or Fighters able to be "aimed" at specific objectives for interception, be it a particular CV squadron or a roaming spotter.