Meanwhile in Russia.......

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

2 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Missing my point...

People complaining about plane spotting being oppressive will soon be complaining about sub spotting being oppressive.

Changing to minimap only plane spotting won't solve the problem, only move it to another class.

Yes, but submarine spotting works almost exactly the same as Destroyer spotting, you have to actually be there to spot! Only difference is subs can also spot ships by their air detect range when at periscope. So subs has to be at surface, taking some minor risks for radar, hard spotting, hydro, planespotting etc or at periscope, taking minor risks for hydro, sub radar, plane spotting etc to actually spot.

A submarine cant place a portable self (fighters) to continue doing the spotting while he goes deep and fights somewhere else. A sub also cant fly over the entire map to spot something over there and then zip back in seconds to spot something over here. Subs spot just like all DDs in the game, just a little more safety and they can choose when they wanna take a risk or not, DDs cant, they are always at risk.

Pretty much every Superunicum streamer of this game is in agreement that plane spotting is broken. Also the biggest reason why ANY kind of smart/tactical gameplay in this game is redundant. Because if you ever thought you might push around and flank and surprise the enemy team, you will soon be spotted by a random plane, which you sometimes dont even see yourself and then the whole play is ruined.

[Admiral_Karasu]

18 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Pretty much every Superunicum streamer of this game is in agreement that plane spotting is broken. Also the biggest reason why ANY kind of smart/tactical gameplay in this game is redundant. Because if you ever thought you might push around and flank and surprise the enemy team, you will soon be spotted by a random plane, which you sometimes dont even see yourself and then the whole play is ruined.

Legends of the Elders speak of tactical gameplay. Those were the tales of high adventure.

[Hugh_Ruka]

I don't know ... maybe it is a translation issue, but now the Spotter plane will not be able to SPOT ??? Talk about sweeping changes ...

The correct solution would be:

1. CV planes get a radio distance parameter

2. Only the launching CV and allied ships within the radio distance can see the ships, all others only on minimap

3. Fighters of any kind do not detect ships

4. Spotter plany remains unchanged

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

29 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Pretty much every Superunicum streamer of this game is in agreement that plane spotting is broken.

Even I agree that plane spotting is broken.

My point is that minimap spotting isn't a complete solution.

What really needs to happen is an overhaul of concealment mechanics.

[Admiral_Karasu]

24 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

I don't know ... maybe it is a translation issue, but now the Spotter plane will not be able to SPOT ??? Talk about sweeping changes ...

The correct solution would be:

1. CV planes get a radio distance parameter

2. Only the launching CV and allied ships within the radio distance can see the ships, all others only on minimap

3. Fighters of any kind do not detect ships

4. Spotter plany remains unchanged

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been a case for a long time that the spotter plane does not actually spot.

[Andrewbassg]

32 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

I don't know ... maybe it is a translation issue, but now the Spotter plane will not be able to SPOT ???

The spotter plane only spots the immediate vicinity of the ship, which is visible anyway, bar islands.

24 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

My point is that minimap spotting isn't a complete solution.

I agree. it will still paint both a tactical as also a strategical picture. But.....somethin' is actually done.

24 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

What really needs to happen is an overhaul of concealment mechanics.

Careful what to wish for........we may end up with "funny buttons", to solve a created problem.....

Edited December 1, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

4 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Careful what to wish for........we may end up with "funny buttons", to solve a created problem.....

The same applies to 'minimap only' spotting...

[Nevermore135]

56 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

 

I don't know ... maybe it is a translation issue, but now the Spotter plane will not be able to SPOT ???

 

Not a translation issue, but more of a general misunderstanding of the role of “spotter/spotting” aircraft and what the term means in the historical context. The catapult-launched planes we see in game are not representations of the scouting aircraft famously utilized by, for example, American CVs and Japanese cruisers to scout for opposing forces during WWII. They are representations of the aircraft utilized by ships to aid their gunnery by spotting the fall of shot and allowing more precise corrections to firing solutions. WoWs represents this by increasing a ship’s firing range, similar to how historically this spotting information (and the increased accuracy that would result) would increase the effective range of a ships guns.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Nevermore135

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Missing my point...

People complaining about plane spotting being oppressive will soon be complaining about sub spotting being oppressive.

Changing to minimap only plane spotting won't solve the problem, only move it to another class.

Personally I don't have a problem with CV's or Submarines or DD's or Cruisers or BB's, per se.

I don't enjoy listening to complaining, and especially am not fond of more effort being spent in complaining than being spent in adapting-improvising-and-overcoming.  🙂 
Good play is not over-powered, in my opinion.

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Yes, but submarine spotting works almost exactly the same as Destroyer spotting, you have to actually be there to spot! Only difference is subs can also spot ships by their air detect range when at periscope. So subs has to be at surface, taking some minor risks for radar, hard spotting, hydro, planespotting etc or at periscope, taking minor risks for hydro, sub radar, plane spotting etc to actually spot.

A submarine cant place a portable self (fighters) to continue doing the spotting while he goes deep and fights somewhere else. A sub also cant fly over the entire map to spot something over there and then zip back in seconds to spot something over here. Subs spot just like all DDs in the game, just a little more safety and they can choose when they wanna take a risk or not, DDs cant, they are always at risk.

Pretty much every Superunicum streamer of this game is in agreement that plane spotting is broken. Also the biggest reason why ANY kind of smart/tactical gameplay in this game is redundant. Because if you ever thought you might push around and flank and surprise the enemy team, you will soon be spotted by a random plane, which you sometimes dont even see yourself and then the whole play is ruined.

Smart tactical gameplay could and would adapt to the presence of aircraft and would play well.

Even in the RTS era, some teams would experience their team's CV being sunk, but would still go on to win.  Granted, it's a struggle.  But it's not impossible.

Some "super unicum" players are able to score hits merely by using the mini-map to aim their main-guns.
Are we supposed to balanz the game according to unicum talent, or on the average performance of all players?  🙂 

[Admiral_Karasu]

19 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Are we supposed to balanz the game according to unicum talent, or on the average performance of all players?  🙂 

Dare we even raise the question? What are the implications of either approach?

[MrWastee]

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

[...]

What really needs to happen is an overhaul of concealment mechanics.

so, i'm curious.... by given what is given, how could that look like?

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

23 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Smart tactical gameplay could and would adapt to the presence of aircraft and would play well.

 

How exactly if "Smart tactical gameplay" is dependent on stealth and surprise and plane spotting at any time nullifies all?

But subs "adapted". they go underwater and can spot planes even tho they are unspotted themselves ... so that is cool. But a Bourgogne trying to do some flanking maneuvers to get around the enemy team ....or a DD for that matter... i bid him good luck "adapting" .... adapting to all that CV, BB, Cruiser, DD and Sub focus he suddenly gets because now hes a spotted Noob/fool that went away from his safety frmomhis team.

 

23 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Even in the RTS era, some teams would experience their team's CV being sunk, but would still go on to win.  Granted, it's a struggle.  But it's not impossible.

 

Never said CVs or their plane spotting was game deciding, just something ruining the game for most and takes away the possibility for any tactics reliant on stealth and surprise.

 

23 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Some "super unicum" players are able to score hits merely by using the mini-map to aim their main-guns.
Are we supposed to balanz the game according to unicum talent, or on the average performance of all players?  🙂 

 

Never said that. And doing something based on skill and experience should never be confused with a broken BS game mechanic like plane spotting that requires neither. I do believe even new and unexperienced players get effected by broken plane spotting as well, but super unicum players usually know better how all mechanics work and which are good and which are broken.

If plane spotting isn't so bad then why not just let all radarcruiser be able to throw out their radar wherever they like on the entire map even if their ship isn't there. Its no big deal....

 

[Admiral_Karasu]

3 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

so, i'm curious.... by given what is given, how could that look like?

If nothing else, I'd remove 'proxy spotting', or at least what I call proxy spotting, some may understand that differently. What I mean is, you'd see what you see, not what someone else sees. If some one spots something that's beyond your view range, you'd only see it on the mini map.  I do realize that this could be a problem, if we have unicum players capable of targeting ships by mini map alone, so there'd have to be a corresponding change that makes targeting ships by mini map coordinates easier to do.

[Andrewbassg]

27 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Smart tactical gameplay could and would adapt to the presence of aircraft and would play well.

Well...except that's not exactly doable, because of the strategic nature of Cv's ( well... planes) and the massive advantages deriving from them. Especialy regarding spotting/recce.

And I think you are confusing a bit tactics with strategy. Tactics means how one deals with any given situation and strategy how one gets into that, or in any given situation. At least that's how I see it.

36 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Even in the RTS era, some teams would experience their team's CV being sunk, but would still go on to win.  Granted, it's a struggle.  But it's not impossible.

Yes. But that's not dependent on objective factors but subjecive factors. 

39 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Some "super unicum" players are able to score hits merely by using the mini-map to aim their main-guns.

Yes aka GG 🙂 

40 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Are we supposed to balanz the game according to unicum talent, or on the average performance of all players?  🙂 

For better overall game experience. And that's exactly what is the problem with spotting by planes as being arguably the biggest offender.

 

[Andrewbassg]

6 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Never said CVs or their plane spotting was game deciding, just something ruining the game for most and takes away the possibility for any tactics reliant on stealth and surprise.

 

Lolz, we made the same argument with different wording...

[Wolfswetpaws]

5 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

 

How exactly if "Smart tactical gameplay" is dependent on stealth and surprise and plane spotting at any time nullifies all?

But subs "adapted". they go underwater and can spot planes even tho they are unspotted themselves ... so that is cool. But a Bourgogne trying to do some flanking maneuvers to get around the enemy team ....or a DD for that matter... i bid him good luck "adapting" .... adapting to all that CV, BB, Cruiser, DD and Sub focus he suddenly gets because now hes a spotted Noob/fool that went away from his safety frmomhis team.

 

Never said CVs or their plane spotting was game deciding, just something ruining the game for most and takes away the possibility for any tactics reliant on stealth and surprise.

 

 

Never said that. And doing something based on skill and experience should never be confused with a broken BS game mechanic like plane spotting that requires neither. I do believe even new and unexperienced players get effected by broken plane spotting as well, but super unicum players usually know better how all mechanics work and which are good and which are broken.

If plane spotting isn't so bad then why not just let all radarcruiser be able to throw out their radar wherever they like on the entire map even if their ship isn't there. Its no big deal....

 

Look, when I read posts worded like yours, I get the impression that situation is more of a player coping-skills issue than a game issue.
The game isn't perfect.  People aren't perfect.  I think we can agree upon that much?  🙂 

I simply keep reading people's posts and keep getting the impression that "accepting what is" and calmly making an effort to determine the best possible course of action for whatever ship I'm playing is better for my mental health than getting upset about a game not behaving like a Burger King commercial and serving-up yummy food prepared "my way".  🙂 

[Andrewbassg]

12 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

so, i'm curious.... by given what is given, how could that look like?

I'll second that, I think it would be good material for a nice, interesting discussion.

[Pugilistic]

2 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

I don't know ... maybe it is a translation issue, but now the Spotter plane will not be able to SPOT ??? Talk about sweeping changes ...

The correct solution would be:

1. CV planes get a radio distance parameter

2. Only the launching CV and allied ships within the radio distance can see the ships, all others only on minimap

3. Fighters of any kind do not detect ships

4. Spotter plany remains unchanged

This is confusing spotting with a target solution.   Placing an enemy ship on the minimap means its spotted. Being able to "see" it when it would not otherwise be visible to your ship visually or with radar means something else is transmitting you a target solution - which wasnt actually possible until CDC developments long after WWII. In WoWS we already have a radio distance parameter: infinity. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Pugilistic

[Admiral_Karasu]

15 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I simply keep reading people's posts and keep getting the impression that "accepting what is" and calmly making an effort to determine the best possible course of action for whatever ship I'm playing is better for my mental health than getting upset about a game not behaving like a Burger King commercial and serving-up yummy food prepared "my way".  🙂 

Do you realize that "accepting what is" can lead to very different outcomes with different people? In sense you are right that it maybe a player coping skill issue, but what happens when the game meta requires a level of copying skill that a given player simply does not have?

[Asym]

49 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Personally I don't have a problem with CV's or Submarines or DD's or Cruisers or BB's, per se.

I don't enjoy listening to complaining, and especially am not fond of more effort being spent in complaining than being spent in adapting-improvising-and-overcoming.  🙂 
Good play is not over-powered, in my opinion.

BUT, there are limits.  Example:  can a DD not be spotted in smoke by Radar?  You can't overcome that......unless, you had chaff counter measures.  Absolutes in any game lead to exploits....  But, here again, if we were a smarter game in design, Radar would have it's own failures.......like how long it took to get the information of the Radar plot point, which was NOT all that accurate (my FIL was on an Iowa class ship as a FTG and served in the M38 FDC's.....) and his accounts of how plotting data made it to a shooting gun was a lot exponentially slower than what the game provides....  We can overcome time now???

Adapting is a great exercise in "making crap up as you go..."  been there, done that.  Overcoming is where the silly arsed crap you made up worked somewhat and you have found a route around the inevitable....whatever that is.  Surviving is living to talk about doing some incredible stupid stuff that peculates innovative ideas somewhere else.

As an Aside and off topic:  We saw a LOT of that in SIMNET and in the modern SIMs.  Some cultures simply can't leave convention alone or, their cultural conventions are actually more chaos that convention.  I have some historical "thoughts for the day" that come from real people from the war eras....  (I collected them as I had the chance to ask or acquired them from the relatives of older soldiers and foreign soldiers I got to interact with....)

Here's just one from the American Revolution and was updated by the family throughout the years:

  “The first rule of fighting Americans in the Open is, don’t.  Americans have a proclivity to separate into small units anyway which makes dealing with them problematic at best…  The second rule is that American small units follow broad and general guidance, which, I might warn, isn’t specific enough to determine where they might go and what they might do…  But, rest assured, if you engage one small unit with a superior force, you can bet that there are several others just looking for some reason to do something unprecedented or insanely clever, upsetting any logical or rationale plan you may have…  Oh, lest I forget, once Americans small units start “wandering around,” they are really hunting you, even if they don’t seem that way….”    (Command and General Staff College, 1988 - British Armor Officer.)

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 minute ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Do you realize that "accepting what is" can lead to very different outcomes with different people? In sense you are right that it maybe a player coping skill issue, but what happens when the game meta requires a level of copying skill that a given player simply does not have?

Then some players become "salty" and/or leave the game.
WG/WOWs does stuff that they feel is in their best interests and is *not* within my control.
All I can control, as a player, is choosing whether or not to play and whether or not to spend money.

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 minutes ago, Asym said:

Here's just one from the American Revolution and was updated by the family throughout the years:

  “The first rule of fighting Americans in the Open is, don’t.  Americans have a proclivity to separate into small units anyway which makes dealing with them problematic at best…  The second rule is that American small units follow broad and general guidance, which, I might warn, isn’t specific enough to determine where they might go and what they might do…  But, rest assured, if you engage one small unit with a superior force, you can bet that there are several others just looking for some reason to do something unprecedented or insanely clever, upsetting any logical or rationale plan you may have…  Oh, lest I forget, once Americans small units start “wandering around,” they are really hunting you, even if they don’t seem that way….”    (Command and General Staff College, 1988 - British Armor Officer.)

[Andrewbassg]

13 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Then some players become "salty" and/or leave the game.
WG/WOWs does stuff that they feel is in their best interests and is *not* within my control.
All I can control, as a player, is choosing whether or not to play and whether or not to spend money.

That's a very good point and arguably a healthy approach.

 

Still, while we are not providing feedback, we are discussing among us, the implications, on the game, of such a radical, deal altering move. 🙂 

And in that context, player retention  quite arguably is in Wedgie;s best interest 🙂  

Edited December 1, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[Wolfswetpaws]

5 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

That's a very good point and arguably a healthy approach.

 

Still, while we are not providing feedback, we are discussing among us, the implications, on the game, of such a radical, deal altering move. 🙂 

And in that context, player retention  quite arguably is in Wedgie;s best interest 🙂  

👍