Official word from WG regarding ASW range discrepancies (injustice) for some ships is that all is OK

[Nevermore135]

5 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

Not sure where the temporary immunity to all damage is coming from, though.

I don’t know either.

51 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

temporarily immune to all forms of damage except one. (Fixed typo)

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Nevermore135

[AdmiralThunder]

4 hours ago, GMMF said:

Do note that there are BBs with 5km airstrikes, which is even shorter. I am sure that subs will both use ping torpedoes outside 5km as well as not getting spotted when at periscope depth. 

Besides this, not having enough range means that those ships cannot support their allies who are getting hunted by subs or allies that are hunting the sub. So when subs activate their sub surveillance, a JB can do nothing to support his sub while enemy normal BB can dunk his airstrike. 

I do not see the need to defend WG when it comes to subs, after all they are the bunch of people that says shotgunning is hard to pull off and then gets shotgunned on stream.

Giulio Cesare with its whopping 4km ASW says HI!

 

[AdmiralThunder]

There is actually a thread about this (in a way) going on over on Reddit right now. I am getting hammered because I have said surface ship vs surface ship interaction is different than surface ship vs sub interaction and they need to be balanced separately.

A surface ship may be "OP" vs other surface ships (Musashi is the Reddit example) but that has NOTHING to do with its interactions with Subs and its ability to defend against them and strike back against them. I have advocated for a standard ASW range by tier. Apparently I am the dumbest clueless need to git-gud idiot to ever play WOWS. No one has bothered to answer why Georgia, another "OP" T9 BB more able to deal with Subs not taking ASW into account, gets 10km ASW while Musashi which is way less suited to it only gets 5km. 

Of note those bashing me are Sub defenders who tell me it is easy to dodge homing torps in Musashi and that I can just run away from them with its blazing fast 27 knot speed. 😂

Edited November 28, 2023 by AdmiralThunder

[Admiral_Karasu]

1 minute ago, AdmiralThunder said:

There is actually a thread about this (in a way) going on over on Reddit right now. I am getting hammered because I have said surface ship vs surface ship interaction is different than surface ship vs sub interaction and they need to be balanced separately. A ship may be "OP" vs surface ships (Musashi is the Reddit example) but that has NOTHING to do with its interactions with Subs and its ability to defend against them and strike back against them. I have advocated for a standard ASW range by tier. Apparently I am the dumbest clueless need to git-gud idiot to ever play WOWS.

Of note those bashing me are Sub defenders who tell me it is easy to dodge homing torps in Musashi and that I can just run away from them with its blazing fast 27 knot speed. 😂

Times like that make you wish you had the Space Battleship Yamato...

[Jakob Knight]

6 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

There is actually a thread about this (in a way) going on over on Reddit right now. I am getting hammered because I have said surface ship vs surface ship interaction is different than surface ship vs sub interaction and they need to be balanced separately.

A surface ship may be "OP" vs other surface ships (Musashi is the Reddit example) but that has NOTHING to do with its interactions with Subs and its ability to defend against them and strike back against them. I have advocated for a standard ASW range by tier. Apparently I am the dumbest clueless need to git-gud idiot to ever play WOWS. No one has bothered to answer why Georgia, another "OP" T9 BB more able to deal with Subs not taking ASW into account, gets 10km ASW while Musashi which is way less suited to it only gets 5km. 

Of note those bashing me are Sub defenders who tell me it is easy to dodge homing torps in Musashi and that I can just run away from them with its blazing fast 27 knot speed. 😂

 

Well, balancing is never going to satisfy everyone, but I do wonder if reputation is sometimes too much of a factor in deciding such things ( "Everyone knows Musashi is the most powerful T9 BB!" ).  While I don't oppose WG giving very different ASW abilities to different classes, I do wish they did an article explaining their logic in how they assign such abilities, and make note of the strengths and weaknesses in each ship's description.  Then again, for all that I think Subs are overall in a balanced state, I still await the day WG explains what the intended role Subs are expected to fill in their game, so I'm not holding my breath for the day WG takes the time for in-depth explanations to the player base on anything.

 

And 'easy' is hardly the word I'd use for dodging homing torpedoes in anything.  Possible, even likely if you are aware they are on the way, but not easy in one of the most sluggish ships in the game.

 

14 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Times like that make you wish you had the Space Battleship Yamato...

 

I won't lie and say that ship is not why I've always wanted to climb the IJN BB line to T10 and jumped on Musashi as soon as I could get her.  How many people would really know and be so interested in Yamato if not for that journey to Iscandar, I wonder?

 

 

[GMMF]

19 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Giulio Cesare with its whopping 4km ASW says HI!

4km, its literally unusable🤣

 

17 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

A surface ship may be "OP" vs other surface ships (Musashi is the Reddit example) but that has NOTHING to do with its interactions with Subs and its ability to defend against them and strike back against them.

Exactly my point, it is totally fine to nerf their anti-sub capabilities by giving less damage (like Agir/Siegfried's airstrike), but nerfing range means stripping away their ability to fight back. 

[Nevermore135]

42 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Of note those bashing me are Sub defenders who tell me it is easy to dodge homing torps in Musashi and that I can just run away from them with its blazing fast 27 knot speed. 😂

All while keeping your guns on target as well…

[Andrewbassg]

Lovely discussion.  Still I wasn't able to get what the actual topic is......

I mean, yes ASW ranges, yes something about nerfing them and something about a list.

So...there is a  list of ships that gonna have their ASW ranges nerfed?

Btw I had an extensive thread about ASW ranges. when they weren't listed in ship stats. ASW plane ranges have also a minimum range, which isn't listed and is not standardised

Edited November 28, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[ArIskandir]

51 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Of note those bashing me are Sub defenders who tell me it is easy to dodge homing torps in Musashi

You are not dodging anything with rudder times over 16 secs. Push it down to below 14 and you may be in business. Also turning circles of near 1km won't work well for torpedo dancing... There's a reason for me to hate Ohio with passion, clumsy mule... 

 

[ArIskandir]

31 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

All while keeping your guns on target as well…

I've said that but need to clarify anything clumsier than a Pommern will struggle a lot to dodge homing torps. For more agile BBs, sure no problem... 

[Nevermore135]

12 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

I've said that but need to clarify anything clumsier than a Pommern will struggle a lot to dodge homing torps. For more agile BBs, sure no problem... 

It was more of a comment on Musashi’s abysmal base 2.5 degrees per second turret traverse. Any excessive maneuvering generally means your guns will be out of the fight for a long time.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Nevermore135

[MnemonScarlet]

2 hours ago, Nevermore135 said:

I’ve always felt that Georgia is one of those ships that is overtuned and extremely dangerous in skilled hands, but her speed (+engine boost), hull poorly suited for brawling, and SeCoNdArIeS means that a large fraction of players simply get themselves killed very early and complain in chat about how they got no support.

I would be very interested to see a comprehensive collection of her performance metrics correlated with player experience/skill.

I noticed even below-average (but not straight up bad) players tend to do better than normal in her, like oranges/etc on the color scale. The fast-heal and absurd speed along with the overmatch guns are just that good a combination. Really bad players die even faster in her, but those people are gonna be food in almost any ship, they just die faster in Geo.

1 hour ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Giulio Cesare with its whopping 4km ASW says HI!

At 4km you might as well be rolling depth charges off the stern. I had to use the plane a couple weeks ago, and it was just sad how short ranged it was.

5 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

It was more of a comment on Musashi’s abysmal base 2.5 degrees per second turret traverse. Any excessive maneuvering generally means your guns will be out of the fight for a long time.

With Musashi it honestly seems like they're doing everything possible to make the ship so uncomfortable to play you just don't do it. Airship Escort on some of the maps was also horrible for Musashi, they were too busy (island filled) for the airship course, and the guns turn so slow it's actually hard to catch opportunities to do damage, as people hide even more than normal in that mode.

[ArIskandir]

25 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

It was more of a comment on Musashi’s abysmal base 2.5 degrees per second turret traverse. Any excessive maneuvering generally means your guns will be out of the fight for a long time.

Yikes, so slow... indeed that ship has no aptitude for dancing. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by ArIskandir

[iDuckman]

... (injustice) ...

 

"Justice?!  In a knife fight?"

Spoiler

 

--------------------

Update:  For you young'uns and foreigners, the paraphrase and image are from 'Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid'.  Search YouTube for "rules in a knife fight" for the full clip.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by iDuckman

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

And 'easy' is hardly the word I'd use for dodging homing torpedoes in anything.  Possible, even likely if you are aware they are on the way, but not easy in one of the most sluggish ships in the game.

Before Ise was provided with Depthcharge Airstrikes...

Ise vs Submarine

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

4 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Times like that make you wish you had the Space Battleship Yamato...

 

I won't lie and say that ship is not why I've always wanted to climb the IJN BB line to T10 and jumped on Musashi as soon as I could get her.  How many people would really know and be so interested in Yamato if not for that journey to Iscandar, I wonder?

I think it would be great to have an Uchuu Senkan Yamato / Star Blazers collaboration.

[Nevermore135]

10 hours ago, GMMF said:

Good to see we are on the same page,

Good.

10 hours ago, GMMF said:

this is the case, do not lean into the naughty list reasoning, because there's no concrete evidence on it.

Of course there isn’t. I’m merely speculating based on the information we have, and the vast majority of the ships that have been given substandard ASW ranges are on said list. The fact that not all of this ships that have been removed from availability have been treated as such in no way changes that fact. That suggests there is some greater level of nuance applied to these decisions than simply “not available = bad ASW.” It could be because these ships are intermittently available, it could be due to more nuanced traits of their performance we don’t have the data to access, or it could be completely random (which is doubtful, because while I don’t agree with a lot of the devs’ balancing decisions, there is usually some - albeit often flawed - reasoning at work). 

10 hours ago, GMMF said:

The only way to prove that point is WG nerfing Lenin & Georgia when both of them are available via other means. Which we will see in the future.

Maybe, maybe not. It could be that those ships are locked away until the game’s dying days, or they could be announced as returning tomorrow. WG could also simply decide to screw the “do not nerf policy” and change all of these ships we are discussing so they feel comfortable improving their ASW. None of that changes the state of things at this moment, or the correlation I pointed out. I also don’t feel any real desire to “prove” this to anyone, because what would be the point?

10 hours ago, GMMF said:

It is a piss poor attempt at doing things and there's no need attempting to theorize WG's poor balancing.

Yes, I’ve stated multiple times that this is a bad method of balancing, which you apparently acknowledged already. You may feel that there is no value in attempting to understand what might be going on behind the curtain - maybe you are convinced it’s all chaos and random decisions rather than some form of flawed logic - but that is very much your opinion. Others of us that still vehemently disagree with a lot of WG’s balance decisions are still able to (or willing to attempt to) wrap our heads around the (IMO) flawed logic that shapes these decisions. One doesn’t need to agree with a system to try to understand it.

10 hours ago, GMMF said:

After all, WG can't even respond to this, so why anyone else should?

But if you can feel free to do it, maybe its a good opportunity to get a new career at WG's balancing dept.

Um… what? Where have I once defended WG’s decisions in regards to this? I’ve been consistent in my stance that this is a bad way of balancing these ships. I have never once expressed agreement or willingness to defend WG’s position. You appeared to acknowledge this earlier, but this bit clearly shows that you have not and are continuing to labor under the false belief that I feel these decisions are worth defending.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Nevermore135

[Wolfswetpaws]

 @GMMF the people whose minds you seem to want to change aren't here in an official capacity.

WG/WOWs upper management has open channels of communication on other platforms (Discord, Reddit, Facebook, and by creating a "customer sevice ticket").

On DevStrike we can exchange viewpoints and discuss the situation.
Do you honestly have an expectation that your opinions and lines of argument expressed here will be received and acted-upon by WG/WOWs personnel?  🙂 

[Jakob Knight]

31 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I think it would be great to have an Uchuu Senkan Yamato / Star Blazers collaboration.

 

I'm sure it's come up more than once since that one 'oops' incident during the first Spaceships event.  But Space Cruiser Yamato has a special place in Japan and I imagine there are magnitudes more hurdles to jump over to get that collab through than any other anime.

 

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 minute ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

I'm sure it's come up more than once since that one 'oops' incident during the first Spaceships event.  But Space Cruiser Yamato has a special place in Japan and I imagine there are magnitudes more hurdles to jump over to get that collab through than any other anime.

I agree there are hurdles.  🙂 

That said, " ... we won't stop until we've won ..."
https://www.lyricsmania.com/cartoon_-_star_blazers_lyrics_tv_themes.html

[MBT808]

2 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

WG/WOWs upper management has open channels of communication on other platforms (Discord, Reddit, Facebook, and by creating a "customer sevice ticket").

The problem is, most of the channels for communication are often vast unfathomable voids that your speaking into. Most times at best you'll get a generic boilerplate response or more commonly no response at all. Even if you get response, nothing happens anyway. The only time there is a tangible response from WG is when a riot erupts in response to what their doing.

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

The problem is, most of the channels for communication are often vast unfathomable voids that your speaking into. Most times at best you'll get a generic boilerplate response or more commonly no response at all. Even if you get response, nothing happens anyway. The only time there is a tangible response from WG is when a riot erupts in response to what their doing.

So, my question remains, "Why are people posting here on DevStrike with the expectation that their words will somehow change WG/WOWs path?"
Especially when this Forum is *not* affiliated with the coporate structure of World of Warships?

The appropriate venues are elsewhere.  😉 
We don't send a letter to Santa by addressing it to the Great Pumpkin, eh?  🙂 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

9 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

The problem is, most of the channels for communication are often vast unfathomable voids that your speaking into. Most times at best you'll get a generic boilerplate response or more commonly no response at all. Even if you get response, nothing happens anyway. The only time there is a tangible response from WG is when a riot erupts in response to what their doing.

Most of the time, 'tis true.

And yet, sometimes...things I said magically made it to the right person and there were real tangible responses and changes...always surprised me when it did happen, mostly because I couldn't figure out what, if anything, I did differently to bring about the rare occurrence.

[GMMF]

6 hours ago, Nevermore135 said:

Um… what? Where have I once defended WG’s decisions in regards to this?

No, I don't think you did, I typed that in case people still belief in WG's decision and think that 5-6km ASW is enough and can be compensate in other means. I was educating a false notion about it and I appreciate you coming in and expand the idea behind WG's action. 

 

6 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Do you honestly have an expectation that your opinions and lines of argument expressed here will be received and acted-upon by WG/WOWs personnel?

No, but does that mean I can't write anything? My whole point of continuing into this thread is this. Where it is a fact that nerfing ASW range means that said BB lost one tool of him dealing with sub while other peers didn't. Hence I feel the need to educate & correct the thought. WG will hardly entertain opinions but that doesn't mean I can't rectify statements that are wrong. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by GMMF

[Hugh_Ruka]

Folks why are you arguing special/premium ships when there are clear issues with ASW on tech tree ships that don't make sense ?

Why does Petro get ASW airstrike while Hinden gets ships dropped DCs ? And there are many more examples like that ....

So no, ship performance has NOTHING to do with ASW capabilities. It seems ASW is assigned by a dice roll ...