Subs in PvE

[Crucis]

4 hours ago, Gillhunter said:

Co-op. I think subs should be restricted to randoms.

Absolutely not!!!  I will say that 1 sub per team should be enough.  And I also wish that MM didn't place red and green subs opposite each other when spawning, just to make things more interesting. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 hours ago, Gillhunter said:

When is the last time you experienced teamwork in either a random or co-op battle, especially co-op. Even when I play with a clan member in co-op we greet each other and that's the extent of our teamwork. In fact in my experience in co-op has been that most divisions I see finish at the bottom in scoring.

Recently I have noticed DDs (which should be the counter to subs, but not in the current game) holding back when a sub is in the game and following a CL or BB into battle. This is something you never used to see. 

I've sunk tons of subs in co-op, but it takes a lot of time which is counterproductive and opens you up to take damage from other reds. Play a ship with slow turret travel and fight a sub on one side and a CL on the other.

I challenge you to ignore a red sub in a match until it's close and shotguns you and not take heavy damage or get sunk. Spending all your time dodging torps is counterproductive to scoring damage in co-op.

Teamwork may be the answer, but I don't see that happening.

I have experienced teamwork in randoms and in co-op.
Yes, it is infrequent.  
I've intiated teamwork on occasion, myself.
Requesting cooperation is only a battle-chat conversation away.

Does it happen every time?  Nope, and I acknowledge that.  Because each player controls their ship and is under no obligation to listen to the requests of others.
Some players do see the value of it, and are willing, if asked early enough and politely.

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 minute ago, Crucis said:

Absolutely not!!!  I will say that 1 sub per team should be enough.  And I also wish that MM didn't place red and green subs opposite each other when spawning, just to make things more interesting. 

Non-mirrored spawns could be interesting, yes.

[Asym]

1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Well, what solutions are you offering that are better than mine?  🙂 
Put-up or shut-up, eh?  🙂 

Put up or shut up>?  Seriously?   Are you talking to me???  Cause, if so, that <<<< is problematic, insulting..... 

There are no solutions to "put up" that will make one once of difference......broken is broken.  Can't fix stupid.....

Divisions only lessen rewards with the exceptions being when farming Spotting Damage and Defended ribbons..... 

If I were to waste pixels and make a recommendation, which will never be reviewed or acted upon, nor would we or any others on this forum ever agree,  I'd eliminate COOP.  Replace it with ASB's and RO's.  COOP was significantly damage, broken beyond repair,  because of the Sub deployment.  What was, is long gone. 

So, I have a solution the corporation would LOVE - get rid of the cost.....eliminate COOP;  and,  replace it with the other PVE modes.  That solves two problems at the same time.

Now, it's in your court to try and explain why a terribly broken mode of PVE play should stay in it's mediocre condition>?  Get rid of it and the sub problem or complaints lessen or go away.....  Subs in PVE are Non-Value Added;  because, just like AA, ASW is a complete and utter joke;  designed, to help a broken ship class.

End of Line.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Asym

[Wolfswetpaws]

45 minutes ago, Asym said:

Put up or shut up>?  Seriously?   Are you talking to me???  Cause, if so, that <<<< is problematic, insulting..... 

There are no solutions to "put up" that will make one once of difference......broken is broken.  Can't fix stupid.....

Divisions only lessen rewards with the exceptions being when farming Spotting Damage and Defended ribbons..... 

If I were to waste pixels and make a recommendation, which will never be reviewed or acted upon, nor would we or any others on this forum ever agree,  I'd eliminate COOP.  Replace it with ASB's and RO's.  COOP was significantly damage, broken beyond repair,  because of the Sub deployment.  What was, is long gone. 

So, I have a solution the corporation would LOVE - get rid of the cost.....eliminate COOP;  and,  replace it with the other PVE modes.  That solves two problems at the same time.

Now, it's in your court to try and explain why a terribly broken mode of PVE play should stay in it's mediocre condition>?  Get rid of it and the sub problem or complaints lessen or go away.....  Subs in PVE are Non-Value Added;  because, just like AA, ASW is a complete and utter joke;  designed, to help a broken ship class.

End of Line.

Yes.  Seriously.  I was hoping you could provide real in-game tactics and principles which could be applied right <bleeping> now.  🙂 

Instead your solution is a proposal to re-work the game.
Well, thank you for providing your answer.  🙂 

[oldblackdog]

47 minutes ago, Asym said:

Put up or shut up>?  Seriously?   Are you talking to me???  Cause, if so, that <<<< is problematic, insulting..... 

There are no solutions to "put up" that will make one once of difference......broken is broken.  Can't fix stupid.....

Divisions only lessen rewards with the exceptions being when farming Spotting Damage and Defended ribbons..... 

If I were to waste pixels and make a recommendation, which will never be reviewed or acted upon, nor would we or any others on this forum ever agree,  I'd eliminate COOP.  Replace it with ASB's and RO's.  COOP was significantly damage, broken beyond repair,  because of the Sub deployment.  What was, is long gone. 

So, I have a solution the corporation would LOVE - get rid of the cost.....eliminate COOP;  and,  replace it with the other PVE modes.  That solves two problems at the same time.

Now, it's in your court to try and explain why a terribly broken mode of PVE play should stay in it's mediocre condition>?  Get rid of it and the sub problem or complaints lessen or go away.....  Subs in PVE are Non-Value Added;  because, just like AA, ASW is a complete and utter joke;  designed, to help a broken ship class.

End of Line.

 

So, your solution is to eliminate the only thing that keeps me in the game. I enjoy co-op, and that includes low-tier co-op. If you don't want players like me, just say so.

[Musket22]

5 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Yes.  Seriously.  I was hoping you could provide real in-game tactics and principles which could be applied right <bleeping> now.  🙂 
Instead your solution is a proposal to re-work the game.
Well, thank you for providing your answer.  🙂 

As the game stands now, the only things I see working are

1) Airstrike (if you have it)

1a) The idea of having to castrate some BBs (Massa etc) to 5km ASW range because they are too good in Surface or AA is just silly.

2) High volume of gunfire, especially HE

3) Ramming if sub isn't below 5ft depth.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, Asym said:

Subs in PVE are Non-Value Added;  because, just like AA, ASW is a complete and utter joke;  designed, to help a broken ship class.

I regard subs in co-op as food and I have sunk my fair share, with gunfire and with ASW drops. If you're having trouble doing that, hit up @ArIskandir, who is probably the only person less afraid of subs than I am (because he understands them so well) and has certainly done more published work on how to both drive and kill them than most others I know. 

22 minutes ago, oldblackdog said:

If you don't want players like me, just say so.

His solution is designed to restrict PvE to an environment where he'll see carriers only rarely and submarines when hell freezes over. There's nothing to stop him from playing random operations whenever he wants, and only time will tell how often Asymmetric Battles come back, but wanting to purge co-op (as it currently exists) altogether seems more than just a little bit spiteful to me. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Ensign Cthulhu

[Asym]

26 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Yes.  Seriously.  I was hoping you could provide real in-game tactics and principles which could be applied right <bleeping> now.  🙂 

Instead your solution is a proposal to re-work the game.
Well, thank you for providing your answer.  🙂 

In COOP?  Seriously.  Rush in, kill what you see and shoot everything to include your own because it doesn't matter anymore....  Tactics?  In a FPS?  That ends so fast, some BB's get three salvo's and only three salvos....???  Good grief.

Years ago, when there were mirrored spawning and no subs.......even then, we had these types of discussions about how to fight and it always cane down to who can "think" asymmetrically and have the situational awareness to know where to be "next..."  That is about it........

Sorry you are disappointed. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 minutes ago, Asym said:

In COOP?  Seriously.  Rush in, kill what you see and shoot everything to include your own because it doesn't matter anymore....  Tactics?  In a FPS?  That ends so fast, some BB's get three salvo's and only three salvos....???  Good grief.

Years ago, when there were mirrored spawning and no subs.......even then, we had these types of discussions about how to fight and it always cane down to who can "think" asymmetrically and have the situational awareness to know where to be "next..."  That is about it........

Sorry you are disappointed. 

I'll live.  🙂 

[SunkCostFallacy]

I've developed a fairly comprehensive methodology for dealing with subs in COOP.

It all operates around my assessment that subs represent the greatest threat.¹

It's a pretty basic algorithm:

1. Do I share proximity with the sub?

If NO ... ignore it. But remember to keep an eye on the minimap to be sure that the sub doesn't enter the same part of the battle space you are in.

If YES ... address it. Goto 2.

2. I share proximity with the sub ... does the initial layout of the game require that I continue to share proximity with the sub?

If NO ... go elsewhere and ignore the sub.

If YES ... address it. Goto 3.

With this question you need to evaluate the map ... where you spawned, what you spawned with, what else has spawned in the other locations, and what the terrain is like. You also need a fairly comprehensive idea of how the red bots tend to behave on that map.

To illustrate:

Let's say you spawned on the west side of the Shatter map. Generally the red bots in the middle spawn will head forwards into the central part of the map and you won't be able to target them when they are in there from the flanks due to the islands, whereas on the all too rare Ocean map ... if it's in range you can shoot it! So on the Shatter map you're going to want to head towards the center of the map anyway ... so that IF there are targets available when you get there, you're in a position to get line of sight on them.

Now let's consider what you spawned WITH. If you spawn in on a cruiser, and share the spawn with a sub and a Kleber or Marceau for example ... the odds are that a similar composition has spawned to oppose you. And unless the DD driver is incompetent he IS going to manage to spam torps into the opposing cruiser and you're going to get minimal XP. In which case going elsewhere may well be the better choice.

However you might spawn with a sub, and a BB ... in which case there's good XP available so you may well elect to stay in that part of the map and try to farm the BB for XP!

3. I share proximity with the sub and have decided to remain in proximity with it, is there any way I can minimise the subs ability to ruin my day?

This is multifaceted:

3a. Can I let something else become the target of the sub so it's not firing those blasted torpedoes at me?

If the sub isn't shooting at you, you can focus on killing it as quickly as possible without risk. But remember that this is COOP and therefor it's a feeding frenzy so lagging behind can cost you XP.

3b. Are there terrain features I can use to make it harder for the sub to mess me up?

If the sub DOES target you, and there are islands on your chosen course, you can get behind them and get the sub to focus on someone else.

To illustrate we'll stay with the Shatter map:

No matter where you spawn, there are islands. So in accordance with the general drift towards the middle of the map you can plan your course so that, if necessary, you can go behind an island (and slow down to ensure that any torps heading your way miss) to break line of sight with the sub and convince it to pick on someone else.

That's the general gist of it. It works for me ... although there are times when I get done over and a blasted sub manages to catch me in a position where my DC is on cooldown and half the red team is shooting at me, in which case I'm pretty much gonna eat a string of homing torps ... and generally I just curse it and try to sink with dignity!

With the exception of question 1 ... your actions are dictated by your ability to assess the map, the spawn layout, and the most probable actions of the red bots. That stuff only comes with experience so keep pressing the battle button and observing what's going on while sending bots to the locker!

 

1. As to why I consider subs to be the greatest threat: The homing torpedo mechanism, the need to use Damage Control to remove the ping, and the ability of the sub to re-ping you with ease means that a string of homing torps while you are engaging other enemies can result in you being sunk either by the torpedoes or by the other enemy due to attempting to avoid the torpedoes and exposing yourself to incoming fire.

[Asym]

2 hours ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

I've developed a fairly comprehensive methodology for dealing with subs in COOP.

It all operates around my assessment that subs represent the greatest threat.¹

It's a pretty basic algorithm:

1. Do I share proximity with the sub?

If NO ... ignore it. But remember to keep an eye on the minimap to be sure that the sub doesn't enter the same part of the battle space you are in.

If YES ... address it. Goto 2.

2. I share proximity with the sub ... does the initial layout of the game require that I continue to share proximity with the sub?

If NO ... go elsewhere and ignore the sub.

If YES ... address it. Goto 3.

With this question you need to evaluate the map ... where you spawned, what you spawned with, what else has spawned in the other locations, and what the terrain is like. You also need a fairly comprehensive idea of how the red bots tend to behave on that map.

To illustrate:

Let's say you spawned on the west side of the Shatter map. Generally the red bots in the middle spawn will head forwards into the central part of the map and you won't be able to target them when they are in there from the flanks due to the islands, whereas on the all too rare Ocean map ... if it's in range you can shoot it! So on the Shatter map you're going to want to head towards the center of the map anyway ... so that IF there are targets available when you get there, you're in a position to get line of sight on them.

Now let's consider what you spawned WITH. If you spawn in on a cruiser, and share the spawn with a sub and a Kleber or Marceau for example ... the odds are that a similar composition has spawned to oppose you. And unless the DD driver is incompetent he IS going to manage to spam torps into the opposing cruiser and you're going to get minimal XP. In which case going elsewhere may well be the better choice.

However you might spawn with a sub, and a BB ... in which case there's good XP available so you may well elect to stay in that part of the map and try to farm the BB for XP!

3. I share proximity with the sub and have decided to remain in proximity with it, is there any way I can minimise the subs ability to ruin my day?

This is multifaceted:

3a. Can I let something else become the target of the sub so it's not firing those blasted torpedoes at me?

If the sub isn't shooting at you, you can focus on killing it as quickly as possible without risk. But remember that this is COOP and therefor it's a feeding frenzy so lagging behind can cost you XP.

3b. Are there terrain features I can use to make it harder for the sub to mess me up?

If the sub DOES target you, and there are islands on your chosen course, you can get behind them and get the sub to focus on someone else.

To illustrate we'll stay with the Shatter map:

No matter where you spawn, there are islands. So in accordance with the general drift towards the middle of the map you can plan your course so that, if necessary, you can go behind an island (and slow down to ensure that any torps heading your way miss) to break line of sight with the sub and convince it to pick on someone else.

That's the general gist of it. It works for me ... although there are times when I get done over and a blasted sub manages to catch me in a position where my DC is on cooldown and half the red team is shooting at me, in which case I'm pretty much gonna eat a string of homing torps ... and generally I just curse it and try to sink with dignity!

With the exception of question 1 ... your actions are dictated by your ability to assess the map, the spawn layout, and the most probable actions of the red bots. That stuff only comes with experience so keep pressing the battle button and observing what's going on while sending bots to the locker!

1. As to why I consider subs to be the greatest threat: The homing torpedo mechanism, the need to use Damage Control to remove the ping, and the ability of the sub to re-ping you with ease means that a string of homing torps while you are engaging other enemies can result in you being sunk either by the torpedoes or by the other enemy due to attempting to avoid the torpedoes and exposing yourself to incoming fire.

Nicely done....  You need to actually create a "formula" we can use.....  👍

Actually, there is a much simpler solution:  completely ignore them;  only engage them if it doesn't interfere with the mission;   if the sub shoots at you, who cares.....ignore them, because some enterprising over achiever will kill them for you....  Complete the exercise.  Next.

[Wolfswetpaws]

8 minutes ago, Asym said:

Nicely done....  You need to actually create a "formula" we can use.....  👍

Actually, there is a much simpler solution:  completely ignore them;  only engage them if it doesn't interfere with the mission;   if the sub shoots at you, who cares.....ignore them, because some enterprising over achiever will kill them for you....  Complete the exercise.  Next.

The words in bold text reminded me of a movie quote.

Quote

• [last lines] 

  [director's cut] 

  Richard B. Riddick : You keep what you kill.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0296572/characters/nm0004874?ref_=tt_cl_c_1

[Asym]

1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The words in bold text reminded me of a movie quote.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0296572/characters/nm0004874?ref_=tt_cl_c_1

You keep what you kill.

Deer season starts on the 29th........and yes, I will keep what I kill;  and, unlike this game, I don't miss.....not ever.   Unlike the game where missing is "part of the game..."

That will cover the "chili meat" situation for a year ! 

[Asym]

14 hours ago, oldblackdog said:

So, your solution is to eliminate the only thing that keeps me in the game. I enjoy co-op, and that includes low-tier co-op. If you don't want players like me, just say so.

I don't own the game and I was just making a suggestion.....  I don't play PVP and I am a PVE main.  But, since our host has zero intention of fixing COOP, I only use COOP for event tasks (Spotting Damage and Defended Ribbons, etc....) and gameplay when I am bored with ASB or RO's....

[oldblackdog]

11 minutes ago, Asym said:

I don't own the game and I was just making a suggestion.....  I don't play PVP and I am a PVE main.  But, since our host has zero intention of fixing COOP, I only use COOP for event tasks (Spotting Damage and Defended Ribbons, etc....) and gameplay when I am bored with ASB or RO's....

 

You should play the game in a way that you enjoy. If that means random ops and asymmetric, that's great. I don't play those modes very often, but I would never suggest that they be eliminated. 

[Asym]

25 minutes ago, oldblackdog said:

You should play the game in a way that you enjoy. If that means random ops and asymmetric, that's great. I don't play those modes very often, but I would never suggest that they be eliminated. 

This is a forum, a place to have open discussions about change and innovations!  It's not associated to or with the game.  This is a place to talk about "all suggestions" and why they would or would not work. 

Our host really isn't too keen on COOP in that, they want everyone in PVP modes of play to consolidate maintenance and development costs and having one mode of play would make marketing easier.

As a PVE main, COOP has a place;  but, its quality really is pretty bad....  They broke it to field subs.  They aren't going to fix it.  That leaves ASBs, which after 4 days was nerf'd and RO's....  So, why get rid of COOP?  Because, they will not fix it.  Would they get rid of COOP?   No.......  But, if they did, it would solve several problems for our host and maybe, they'd expand ASB's and RO's for the PVE crew.....or, not....

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Asym

[oldblackdog]

3 hours ago, Asym said:

Our host really isn't too keen on COOP in that, they want everyone in PVP modes of play...

 

They aren't going to get everyone. I know at least one player who will probably drop out of the game, and I doubt if he's alone.

 

3 hours ago, Asym said:

...to consolidate maintenance and development costs and having one mode of play would make marketing easier.

 

How does marketing get easier if they wipe out part of their market?

 

3 hours ago, Asym said:

As a PVE main, COOP has a place;  but, its quality really is pretty bad....  They broke it to field subs.  They aren't going to fix it.  That leaves ASBs, which after 4 days was nerf'd and RO's....  So, why get rid of COOP?  Because, they will not fix it.  Would they get rid of COOP?   No.......  But, if they did, it would solve several problems for our host and maybe, they'd expand ASB's and RO's for the PVE crew.....or, not....

 

1) I don't see any significant decline in the quality of play in co-op.

 

2) Subs don't bother me. While I have...ummm...reservations about the way subs were developed, tested, and implemented, in the end they are just another wrinkle to the game.

 

3) Asymmetric Battles & Random Ops have their place, and I'm happy they are in the game. However, I have no desire to see them become the only option for PvE players.

[BOBTHEBALL]

On 11/26/2023 at 12:51 PM, Gillhunter said:

Co-op. I think subs should be restricted to randoms.

That is quite honestly a horrible idea. Co-op is just randumbs but made for people who want the easiest time possible. The only difference between the two is that you face bots in one and human bots in the other. It's also not like co-op is challenging to begin with, a bot SS is just as easy to kill as the other classes there isn't really any challenge in the game-mode to be quite honest. If you want a mode without subs try playing OPs or maybe even the current tier 7 ranked, those are more enjoyable than co-op as well in my honest opinion.

[Gillhunter]

52 minutes ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

That is quite honestly a horrible idea. Co-op is just randumbs but made for people who want the easiest time possible. The only difference between the two is that you face bots in one and human bots in the other. It's also not like co-op is challenging to begin with, a bot SS is just as easy to kill as the other classes there isn't really any challenge in the game-mode to be quite honest. If you want a mode without subs try playing OPs or maybe even the current tier 7 ranked, those are more enjoyable than co-op as well in my honest opinion.

Well Bob that's kind of an elitist statement to make about an entire group of people. I've been here since beta, played randoms for several years, and if not for PvE would have quit the game a couple of years ago. After serving on WWII era ships I worked in a challenging career for 40 years. In my entertainment time I want to do something I find enjoyable, not challenging. In my honest opinion there are many other players like me.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Gillhunter

[Asym]

3 hours ago, oldblackdog said:

They aren't going to get everyone. I know at least one player who will probably drop out of the game, and I doubt if he's alone.

How does marketing get easier if they wipe out part of their market?

1) I don't see any significant decline in the quality of play in co-op.

2) Subs don't bother me. While I have...ummm...reservations about the way subs were developed, tested, and implemented, in the end they are just another wrinkle to the game.

3) Asymmetric Battles & Random Ops have their place, and I'm happy they are in the game. However, I have no desire to see them become the only option for PvE players.

No, they won't.  And, that didn't stop them or even phase them when they introduced Update 8.0 and it got so bad, just under a dozen) I know and played with left the game....  Do you really believe they care ?  Especially, with WoTs being in the Top 50 games in terms of game population !  (last I looked...)  WoWs is a minor issue when compared to Tanks......

Marketing is easier when you have one theme and one "Vision"....  I started in this game PVP because PVE was a joke.  Then, Randoms self destructed and COOP was all that was left...  Now, COOP imploded quality wise and many of us are anchored in RO's and ASB's....  One message is the way to go.

Subs........I simply ignore them as if they were even there....  They "jammed" subs into the game engine and now, that 4th dimension is causing all sorts of bugs and issues our host simply can't afford to fix..   Let alone what the removal of team damage has done to lower game play quality.  Add into that Central Spawning, where the A and C caps really don't get to do much........and, the endless Sub(s), Carrier(s) and up to 3 more DD's and you get 6 minute matches where BB's get three salvos and the game is over.

ROs and ASBs are all that is left.  Without them, an awful lot of us would retire the game.  Again, if I were in charge, I would remove COOP (and, completely overhaul it) and expand RO's and ASB's.....  COOP would only come back either sub-less is we couldn't fix how messing with the 4th dimension (sub-surface) messed up the game engine and rendering....

I like change that makes sense.  As a PVE main, I want well thought out and meaningful events that host game quality and not quantity....  And, if I had a magic wand, I'd insure that DD's in PVE simply could NOT sail up to any BB, unsupported and launch 15+ torps and live to tell the tale.  They not even get close to a supported BB....  Now, ambushing a BB using terrain is another story.  Balance and quality play (removing the mercy rule) would earn more than this "let the eat cake" attitude we have now.

Just my opinion.

[Musket22]

2 hours ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

That is quite honestly a horrible idea. Co-op is just randumbs but made for people who want the easiest time possible. The only difference between the two is that you face bots in one and human bots in the other. It's also not like co-op is challenging to begin with, a bot SS is just as easy to kill as the other classes there isn't really any challenge in the game-mode to be quite honest. If you want a mode without subs try playing OPs or maybe even the current tier 7 ranked, those are more enjoyable than co-op as well in my honest opinion.

"Co-op is just randumbs but made for people who want the easiest time possible."

Actually, it's to have time somewhere that has fewer self-agrandizing - virulent know-it-alls playing.

Also, to have a "FUN & ENGAGING" experience, said experience being dimished greatly by the inclusion of mithic submarines. 

[Asym]

2 hours ago, Gillhunter said:

Well Bob that's kind of an elitist statement to make about an entire group of people. I've been here since beta, played randoms for several years, and if not for PvE would have quit the game a couple of years ago. After serving on WWII era ships I worked in a challenging career for 40 years. In my entertainment time I want to do something I find enjoyable, not challenging. In my honest opinion there are many other players like me.

Well said.  Quality content may be more expensive to produce than the cloned content we've been seeing for years....  If it ain't enjoyable and accomplishes what we need for events, they missed the entire point.....again and again...  Ships have always been a hobby for me.  And, like you, I've retired (from two careers)...  My hobbies fill the "competition" I require to stay sharp and Video Games fill the "let's get together when we can't shoot" and have a blast !  If I miss a shot in a National Qualifier or if we are betting hair on a woods walk, I'm depressed..... If I miss a shot in this game, the lads I sail with simply can't help themselves and it a funny, long evenings....  Fun is not optional....

[HogHammer]

On 11/26/2023 at 8:07 AM, Gillhunter said:

This isn't about Sub bashing, they apparently are here to stay, it's how you deal with them. I'm a Cruiser main so my perspective will be from playing a Cruiser. Currently the red sub spawns opposite the green sub be it a human or a bot. Like CVs, WOWs decided that subs can't kill each other, that must be left to someone else. In my experience it doesn't matter if the green sub captain is human or a bot, someone else has to deal with the red bot(s).

If the green sub spawns on the other flank all is good (for you at least). If the green sub spawns on your flank you are going to have to deal with the red sub. The way I see it these are your choices.

Turn and head in the opposite direction and avoid contact. Unfortunately this action can negatively impact your ability to attack other red ships lowering your score potential.

Stay and kill the red sub. I've killed lots of red subs, but because subs can absorb so much damage it takes a lot of hits and you are also subject to being sunk by the other red ships on that flank.

Ignore the sub and go after the other red ships on the flank and if the sub goes after you it will shotgun you and probably sink you.

I normally choose the first option which doesn't make me like subs in the game.

Is there some other strategy that you have found successful?

There are several points you covered here, so I'll attempt my best to cover them, give my thoughts/opinion, and perhaps point you in the right direction.

(1) Sub spawns and those who engage or make a quick dash.  I've seen both in the limited co-op battles I've played and also in randoms.  This can get frustrating, but it does happen from time to time.  Does it affect your overall damage? It surely can.  I personally would rather engage, at the expense of less damage, to help the overall team.

(2) Cruisers, as you state, I believe, bring a different aspect to hunting and killing subs.  You either have your typical depth charges or airdrop. With airdrops, a cruiser can at least battle at a distance (plus, you have the opportunity to utilize your guns to a somewhat greater degree when it arises).  With cruisers equipped with only typical depth charges, you basically need to be on top of subs to have an impact (referenced below).  This also can draw you closer to the red team, where your chances of being detected are greater. 

To a certain degree, I think you have to look at the game mode you are playing and what your goals may be.  Co-op and seeking damage/credits, I really don't see too much of a problem angling away to give yourself the opportunity to have more targets available.  Hopefully, your guns can deal some damage to the sub and other ships of opportunity.  I've seen co-op games where the sub was the "last man standing." So, I don't think this is out of the question.

Randoms, in my view, are a different beast.  I'm not going to shy away from an engagement, and I'm there also to support the ships in that sector of the map and the team overall. Here, depending on the cruiser, you have to look for opportunities for engagement with a sub but also be very aware that once you open fire, you open yourself to be fired on, so your mini-map awareness is very important. Your angle, changes in speed, and a little wiggle in your stern can help avoid some costly mistakes.

(3) Sub damage.  Here is where gets somewhat interesting, and I'll try to keep it simple but also provide a link that is much more detailed.  Say you have a ring with a 1-foot radius and another ring overlaying with a 3-foot radius.  Within the 1-foot radius, everything is 1:1 damage.  Now, outside of that radius from 1 foot to the three-foot range, you will only deal 1/3 of the damage.  Of course, that is with a fixed target, and subs normally don't stay in just one spot.  So, if you are seeing only a little damage at a time with a sub, you can pretty much bet they are in the window of 1/3 damage.  So, if you are dropping charges or using ASW, you can begin to see why sub-damage seems to be very incremental at times.

Here is the link, which provides much more information that I hope helps you:  

 

 

[oldblackdog]

A number of points to address here...

3 hours ago, Asym said:

No, they won't.  And, that didn't stop them or even phase them when they introduced Update 8.0 and it got so bad, just under a dozen) I know and played with left the game...

I don't think I've ever seen reliable numbers on player population after the CV rework (not saying you're wrong...I just don't know). As for subs, this came up on the old forum more than once. As I recall, WoWS staff seemed happy with the number of players who were using subs, plus new people were coming to the game specifically to play around under water. Some of the posts by WoWS staff demonstrated an amusing use of cherry-picked statistics and twisted logic.

3 hours ago, Asym said:

Marketing is easier when you have one theme and one "Vision"....

But, they don't have to have "one vision". Heck, I could avoid all of the difficulties of submarines and carriers if I simply spent all my time at tier 2 (I have the ships...ships I like to play, and I would be content). There is still room in the game for all kinds of players.

3 hours ago, Asym said:

ROs and ASBs are all that is left.

Well, no. For me, they are not a practical option. There is a big difference between a short co-op battle and a (potentially) much longer excursion to RO's or ASB's. 

As for other issues (yolo destroyers, friendly fire, the so-called "mercy rule), these exist in every game mode. Don't use them as an excuse to nuke co-op.   

Edited November 28, 2023 by oldblackdog