Military News & Naval History Hangout

[iDuckman]

If Houthi starts targeting USN ships, they're going to have a whole new problem.

 

[DDG44_Vet]

A French frigate shot down two more drones this weekend in the Red Sea. https://news.usni.org/2023/12/11/lethal-drones-from-yemen-attacked-french-frigate-in-red-sea-say-officials. 

[Malum0ne]

 

A missile fired by Yemen’s Houthi rebels strikes a Norwegian-flagged tanker in the Red Sea

 

https://apnews.com/article/yemen-ship-attack-houthi-rebels-red-sea-946b40e6393af6216c0b6ef734311be9

 

Updated 9:54 AM EST, December 12, 2023

[Snargfargle]

The thing that I find interesting about Yemen is that it occupies the same lands once said to have been ruled by the legendary Queen of Sheba.

[iDuckman]

IIRC, Frankincense comes from there, so probably one of the Three Kings.

 

[Snargfargle]

25 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

IIRC, Frankincense comes from there, so probably one of the Three Kings.

Older than that, we're talking the legend of King Solomon here. But you are right about the spices.

"When the queen of Sheba heard about the fame of Solomon, she came to test Solomon with hard questions. Arriving at Jerusalem with a very great caravan—with camels carrying spices, large quantities of gold, and precious stones... Never again were so many spices brought in as those the queen of Sheba gave to King Solomon.

Back to Yemen.

When the current US administration came in to power it immediately ended military support for Yemen.

"Yemen war: Joe Biden ends support for operations in foreign policy reset" -- BBC February 5, 2021

Fast forward to the current Israeli war that the US is staunchly supporting and, as Bob Dylan said, "The times, they are a-changing."

"U.S. seeking partners to safeguard ships after Red Sea attacks

The Biden administration’s call for expanding a multinational naval force comes as Houthi militants in Yemen have vowed to target vessels bound for Israel." -- Washington Post, Dec 10, 2023

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Snargfargle

[iDuckman]

Stupidity got us into this mess.  Why can't it get us out?

[Asym]

On 12/4/2023 at 1:26 PM, iDuckman said:

If Houthi starts targeting USN ships, they're going to have a whole new problem.

Really>?  Based on what????  The way I see this going down is that self defense is the best we can hope for;  and,  anything else simply won't happen.  We are in the End of Times if you want to be honest......and, as was written, this is the way......

[iDuckman]

The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock has increased meaning in these times.

The Hollow Men even more so.  Is Eliot to be counted among the Prophets?

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

[Crokodone]

On 12/12/2023 at 11:51 AM, Snargfargle said:

Older than that, we're talking the legend of King Solomon here. But you are right about the spices.

"When the queen of Sheba heard about the fame of Solomon, she came to test Solomon with hard questions. Arriving at Jerusalem with a very great caravan—with camels carrying spices, large quantities of gold, and precious stones... Never again were so many spices brought in as those the queen of Sheba gave to King Solomon.

Back to Yemen.

When the current US administration came in to power it immediately ended military support for Yemen.

"Yemen war: Joe Biden ends support for operations in foreign policy reset" -- BBC February 5, 2021

Fast forward to the current Israeli war that the US is staunchly supporting and, as Bob Dylan said, "The times, they are a-changing."

"U.S. seeking partners to safeguard ships after Red Sea attacks

The Biden administration’s call for expanding a multinational naval force comes as Houthi militants in Yemen have vowed to target vessels bound for Israel." -- Washington Post, Dec 10, 2023

 

That government we stopped backing had lost the fight with the Houthi's; regardless of almost unilateral regional military support from Saudi Arabia and I believe the UAE (Houthi's attacked Saudi Arabia.) Outside of extraordinary circumstances, human nature requires progress for continued support, Elected Yemani government wasn't making that progress. Hence regional striking power of the Houthis; Sinking ships, downing Jets and launching transnational semi-precision munitions all the while wearing Sandals.

[xamdam]

On 8/22/2023 at 5:08 AM, iDuckman said:

We don't seem to have a military section, so I'll post this here. 

X-planes are research vehicles.  So what are the various X programs researching?  It held my attention.

 

I'm feeling old... When I joined my squadron in the Marines we were still flying OA-4Ms and the other groups were using A-6s, EA-6Bs and F-4s. Deployed Navy squadrons had A-7s. All of these first flown in the 50s~mid 60s. This was 1984 for me so I got to work through the transition to F-18s and AV-8Bs which while "new" didn't have the appeal of the old birds they replaced. Nothing like watching a pair of F-4s thunder down the runway on full afterburner.

While at my tech school in Portsmouth / Norfolk I got to walk through the Coral Sea (Midway class) that was in drydock. I also got to see the newly recommissioned New Jersey but just from dockside. It was pretty cool to think I was in uniform at the same time it was back in service (as a WW2 history buff since childhood).

I never did like the AV-8Bs. The pilots were still green and that mid-eighties avionics wasn't quite perfected yet. I always worried about them dropping on my head since my shop was near the runway and they wobbled all over the place practicing hovering. Not only that, they were noisy as hell. So were the A-6s. Our OA-4Ms were sleak though and the F-4s just reeked of brute power. They needed it, or they wouldn't fly (flying bricks, we called them).

Zip ahead 40 years and nothing today interests me. lol Not this ugly stealth stuff, drones or practically any car or motorcycle currently in production. Yep... about ready for my geezer card! 😄

/oldmanramble

[xamdam]

On 12/5/2023 at 4:26 AM, iDuckman said:

If Houthi starts targeting USN ships, they're going to have a whole new problem.

 

All they'd need to do is park one of the Iowas offshore. No need for a full re-commissioning, Just some electrical power, a lube job on the turrets and have the magazines replenished. They can tow it there and drop anchor. I suppose getting those Phalanx systems back up would be smart too and maybe some of the 5" mounts. 

Houthi gonna be thinkin' twice after that. 

I vote for Wisconsin. Missouri needs to stay where it is. Iowa is too far away to tow and New Jersey is busy making YouTube videos. Besides, Wisconsin is in Norfolk so the freshen up job can be done overnight. 🙂

[iDuckman]

The infamous West Point Eggnog Riot.

 

[iDuckman]

On 12/19/2023 at 11:54 PM, xamdam said:

New Jersey is busy making YouTube videos.

IIRC, New Jersey's B turret has not been repaired.  So gimped for action.

 

[Snargfargle]

There is less need for platforms like battleships nowadays. Rockets and unmanned drones are the weapons of today, and of tomorrow. The artillery pieces my unit fielded have all been retired in favor of rocket platforms that can send equivalent-weight munitions twice as far. Not to mention that it can also use other-types of munitions as well.

[iDuckman]

5 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

There is less need for platforms like battleships nowadays. Rockets and unmanned drones are the weapons of today, and of tomorrow. The artillery pieces my unit fielded have all been retired in favor of rocket platforms that can send equivalent-weight munitions twice as far. Not to mention that it can also use other-types of munitions as well.

Interesting topic.  Proceedings this month has a symposium predicating a war over Taiwan in 2026 and asking what we lack and what needs to be done now.  The paper addressing the heads-up conflict continues the point, made by a recent SecNav, that Platforms are becoming increasingly irrelevant except insofar as they carry the weapons that do the job. 

Rather than spend $xB on new "exquisite" platforms we should spend the $ on many smart munitions and load them on barges.  Keyword: many.  Kill webs no longer need a sophisticated anchor.  A drone can do what a $100M radar can do in terms of targeting. 

(This does not obsolete CVs, btw.  They carry manned and unmanned aircraft that form large parts of the web.)

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by iDuckman

[Wolfswetpaws]

9 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

There is less need for platforms like battleships nowadays. Rockets and unmanned drones are the weapons of today, and of tomorrow. The artillery pieces my unit fielded have all been retired in favor of rocket platforms that can send equivalent-weight munitions twice as far. Not to mention that it can also use other-types of munitions as well.

 

4 hours ago, iDuckman said:

Interesting topic.  Proceedings this month has a symposium predicating a war over Taiwan in 2026 and asking what we lack and what needs to be done now.  The paper addressing the heads-up conflict continues the point, made by a recent SecNav, that Platforms are becoming increasingly irrelevant except insofar as they carry the weapons that do the job. 

Rather than spend $xB on new "exquisite" platforms we should spend the $ on many smart munitions and load them on barges.  Keyword: many.  Kill webs no longer need a sophisticated anchor.  A drone can do what a $100M radar can do in terms of targeting. 

(This does not obsolete CVs, btw.  They carry manned and unmanned aircraft that form large parts of the web.)

 

"First Person View drones have changed the war in <redacted>. Within just months."
Link to Binkov's Battlegrounds' video.  https://youtu.be/IF3xiCSeqno?si=Qpg-rlnN_MdmXWxF

 

[DDG44_Vet]

5 hours ago, iDuckman said:

Interesting topic.  Proceedings this month has a symposium predicating a war over Taiwan in 2026 and asking what we lack and what needs to be done now.  The paper addressing the heads-up conflict continues the point, made by a recent SecNav, that Platforms are becoming increasingly irrelevant except insofar as they carry the weapons that do the job. 

Rather than spend $xB on new "exquisite" platforms we should spend the $ on many smart munitions and load them on barges.  Keyword: many.  Kill webs no longer need a sophisticated anchor.  A drone can do what a $100M radar can do in terms of targeting. 

(This does not obsolete CVs, btw.  They carry manned and unmanned aircraft that form large parts of the web.)

 

I just read that article @iDuckman, our munition shortages, lack of industrial base capabilities, and lack of preparation for a naval war with China that it highlights are sobering to say the least. 

[Snargfargle]

2 hours ago, DDG44_Vet said:

preparation for a naval war with China that it highlights are sobering to say the least. 

It baffles me why people think that China wants to go to war with the US or vice versa. US-China trade is worth over a half a trillion dollars a year. Chinese companies have billions more in physical assets located in the US and in the countries of its allies, not to mention that China also owns nearly a trillion dollars in US Treasury bonds. If China went to war with the US and its allies, it's ability to sell and buy on the global market would be cut to almost nothing, most of its foreign-based companies would be nationalized, and most of its foreign assets confiscated. This would result in the collapse of the Chinese economy overnight.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Snargfargle

[iDuckman]

17 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

why people think that China wants to go to war with the US

It doesn't.  But it wants Taiwan.  With Taiwan in CCP hands China gains 1) absolute control within the First Island Chain, allowing blackmail of Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Philippines; 2) The biggest chip manufacturing industry on Earth.  (Assuming some survives the invasion.) 

In essence, the US has said that if China tries to occupy Taiwan, we will attack them.  Deterrence.  You think it will work, do you?  Xi has made the integration of Taiwan a centerpiece theme of his presidency. 

18 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

This would result in the collapse of the Chinese economy overnight.

Like the Iranian and Russian economies collapsed? 

 

[Snargfargle]

23 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

Like the Iranian and Russian economies collapsed?

Iran has lots of oil, as does Russia but neither are dependent on billions of dollars of sales of manufactured products to other countries for their economic welfare. Also, neither have a lot of companies in US or investments in US bonds. Currently, China has 261 companies in the US with a combined market value of $1.3 trillion. Add to that the nearly one trillion dollars they have invested in US bonds and the half a trillion dollars in US trade annually and you can see why they wouldn't want to start a war with the US. Not even China can afford to lose nearly three trillion dollars from their economy. If China were to attack Taiwan, they would find themselves at war not only with the US but with our closest area allies, Japan, South Korea, Australia, and likely India and the Philippines too, plus probably most of the British Commonwealth, the Dutch, French and anyone else with interests in Eastern Asia. Most of these countries have close manufacturing ties to Taiwan and don't want it controlled by the Chinese Communist Party. Not to mention that it would be seen as an expansionist move that probably wouldn't stop there.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Snargfargle

[iDuckman]

8 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

Iran has lots of oil, as does Russia but neither are dependent on billions of dollars of sales of manufactured products to other countries for their economic welfare. Also, neither have a lot of companies in US or investments in US bonds. Currently, China has 261 companies in the US with a combined market value of $1.3 trillion. Add to that the nearly one trillion dollars they have invested in US bonds and the half a trillion dollars in US trade annually and you can see why they wouldn't want to start a war with the US. Not even China can afford to lose nearly three trillion dollars from their economy. If China were to attack Taiwan, they would find themselves at war not only with the US but with out closest area allies, Japan, South Korea, Australia, and likely India too. All of these countries have close manufacturing ties to Taiwan and don't want it controlled by the Chinese Communist Party. Not to mention that it would be seen as an expansionist move that probably wouldn't stop there.

I don't disagree with your evaluation of the situation.  I do disagree that it is decisive.  China thinks long term, something we're not used to.  Whatever the economic consequences, they are not permanent.  The reason for China's volume of trade is that the world wants what it has/makes.  Five years after such a conflict -- assuming no radical degradation of industrial infrastructure -- I project the industrial giant to be back in business. 

Further, there is no chance of a popular uprising, a constraining possibility that Putin has to deal with.

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by iDuckman

[Snargfargle]

Just now, iDuckman said:

China thinks long term

I just read an article that noted that China didn't really have to invade Taiwan if they were playing the long game, they just needed to invest in it so heavily that eventually the Taiwanese would vote to be a semi-independent region of China, much like Hong Kong is.

[iDuckman]

17 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

I just read an article that noted that China didn't really have to invade Taiwan if they were playing the long game, they just needed to invest in it so heavily that eventually the Taiwanese would vote to be a semi-independent region of China, much like Hong Kong is.

Yeah, I think the CCP's treatment of Hong Kong has put paid to that possibility.

 

[Andrewbassg]

When history says Hi! 🙂 

 

 

I found this fascinating, even if quite a bit.... hallmarkesque. Really helps sink in, that they were just as humans, as we are.

Well ofc their smiles would have looked quite different ...