21pt Capt's the grind is insane

[Asym]

8 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

You continue to look at it from the perspective of what other people have vs you. That is NOT what has people upset and you are completely missing the point. I couldn't care less how many pts the person's Capt I am playing against has vs my Capt's pts. That is NOT the issue AT ALL. I actually don't disagree with what you say in general but it has nothing to do with the issues I have with what WG did.

My main gripe, like most people's, is that they took something we had already finished, sometimes years prior, and said do more to get it back. They took something away from us we had already done the work/grind for and made us work/grind again to get it back. THAT is what has me and others so upset about what WG did. My other gripe, and the only comments I have made about the points, relates to what we get value wise for all the extra grinding. WG added 1.2 Million extra XP to the Capt grind to go from 19-21 pts (which is 70% of going from 0-19), BUT, 21 pts now gives you the same value from the skills selected that 19 used to. So I have to grind 70% more to get what I used to get at 19 pts value wise from the skills. Let's not even talk about all the elite Capt XP people like me have lost while going from 19-21 pts on our Capt's that were already done.

Again, it has nothing to do with me vs the opponent. It is about what WG did to something I already had and had finished. Moving the goal post and taking it away was WRONG! End of story.

Although this is not a perfect analogy it is close enough and maybe you will finally see what I/we are talking about. Let's say your favorite ship in the game is Montana (it's mine so that is why we are using it LOL). You grind your butt off up the US BB tree and finally get it. Man, you love it and play it all the time for years. Then one day WG decides to change how much XP is needed to get T10 tech tree ships out of the blue. They raise Montana's 247,000 XP cost by 70% (+172,900) to 419,900. Now, you already ground out Montana years ago so surely WG will allow you to keep it despite the change right? Nope, they take it away and say you can have it back once you regrind in Iowa for another 172,900 XP. I am going out on a limb here but I don't believe you would be happy about that and most likely you would be pretty upset. I also don't think you would like other people saying "but everyone has to regrind Iowa no big deal none of us has Montana and an edge". 

So as said not a perfect analogy but close enough. Montana would = an elite Capt and regrinding Iowa would = regrinding the former elite Capt to get it back to elite status.

Wrong is wrong and what WG did to the player base with some aspects of the Capt rework was as wrong as it gets.

Please leave that kind of attitude at the door. It is uncalled for.

Spot on AT.........well said.

We were process bamboozled.  And, if you can't see how, you simply can't see the forest through the pocking trees.....  We said NO and they simply didn't give a pock....

Our host took something we believed in; something that we worked hard to achieve; something that we valued and simply made all of that effort a facade; a sad third world joke and then, told us we had to work even harder to re-do all of that effort;  because,.................they never even had the grace to say......why.

It is amazing the game is even viable....  I stayed to see what we'd become........  Now, that we talking about this, it is clear:  the game is a sad joke.  A memory of what could have been when most of us were playing and trying and investing in something we loved to do..........only to get pocked. 

The Skill Tree Change is a shell game..... We lost a lot more than we gained and everything after the economy reset insured we'd never achieve what we had years earlier...  The end of an era.   And, there we are.........  Some of us gave playing this game up,  in earnest,  for Lent....  Now, it's the plan C game....

'You reap what you sow'  mates.........and, we can only reap what was and never will be again.  Sorry, I don't suffer fools easily and haven't left because I said I wouldn't till the game itself calls it quits.....  And that, as Thanos inferred is:    "it's inevitable..."  

Sorry guys, this topic is a sore spot for me.

 

[HMS_Kilinowski]

9 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Incorrect. It very much matters, because I (and most players) don't play only one ship at a time.

You again posit a very impractical single example to 'disprove' my practical experience...after being very insulting again. Do you honestly think this style of yours is persuasive? It's not.

At this point, I perceive it pointless to continue attempting to dialogue with you. You appear to be only interested in pounding your chest and lecturing all who you think are beneath you.

Good luck with that. You have certainly earned a type of 'respect.'

You seem incapable of understanding my point or willfully ignoring it. You are also deliberately not giving information on your play, so you get a "you don't know me"-get out of jail free- card, and I am getting less and less inclined to continue this pointless conversation. 

I got all the 21-pointers I need. If one doesn't have them after years of play, that looks like a player problem to me. 

The simple point is that WG did you a favor and saved you a lot of CXP for the same utility you had before. I am fine, and I am better off with the commander rework than before, and so is anyone who isn't a complete whale who needs a full commander on 200 ships+.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

9 hours ago, Asym said:

The Skill Tree Change is a shell game..... We lost a lot more than we gained

Speak for yourself. I'll take the extra flexibility any day. Up until the commander skill rework, my 'lead' 19 pointer in any nation had to be a compromise between BB, CA/CL and DD skills when hopping between premiums and his tech-tree home, and there was no way to reconcile a surface ship build with builds for carriers. 

With one fell swoop, the commander skill rework fixed that. As a corollary, it also greatly reduced the number of highest-rank commanders I needed in any one nation. I was looking at having to create four for each nation (optimal builds for CV, BB, cruiser, DD), and five if subs had been fully introduced under the old system. Now I technically need no more than one for each, and I have done that already and then some. Every 21 pointer I create from now on is a bonus.

The rework REDUCED the amount of grinding I needed to do and made my commanders more flexible. So that's why I'm not exactly keen to join the pitchforks-and-torches crowd on this one.  

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

21 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

The simple point is that WG did you a favor and saved you a lot of CXP for the same utility you had before.

Nope.

21 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

I am fine, and I am better off with the commander rework than before, and so is anyone who isn't a complete whale who needs a full commander on 200 ships+

This is based off of how YOU value items in game. It is completely normal for others to have different valuations of WG offerings.

Your entire argument set seems to require everyone to adopt your valuation as their own. That's an unrealistic expectation.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

2 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

So that's why I'm not exactly keen to join the pitchforks-and-torches crowd on this one.  

Another reason not to join a pitchfork brigade on this is that the change is in line with how these kinds of games progress over time.

I may grumble about how the changes were made...and I may differ from the company and others on the relative value of what the change offered and cost me...

There is not much point in demanding it change. WG isn't going to move away from the free2play model.

[HMS_Kilinowski]

9 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

You continue to look at it from the perspective of what other people have vs you. That is NOT what has people upset and you are completely missing the point. I couldn't care less how many pts the person's Capt I am playing against has vs my Capt's pts. That is NOT the issue AT ALL. I actually don't disagree with what you say in general but it has nothing to do with the issues I have with what WG did.

My main gripe, like most people's, is that they took something we had already finished, sometimes years prior, and said do more to get it back. They took something away from us we had already done the work/grind for and made us work/grind again to get it back. THAT is what has me and others so upset about what WG did. My other gripe, and the only comments I have made about the points, relates to what we get value wise for all the extra grinding. WG added 1.2 Million extra XP to the Capt grind to go from 19-21 pts (which is 70% of going from 0-19), BUT, 21 pts now gives you the same value from the skills selected that 19 used to. So I have to grind 70% more to get what I used to get at 19 pts value wise from the skills. Let's not even talk about all the elite Capt XP people like me have lost while going from 19-21 pts on our Capt's that were already done.

Again, it has nothing to do with me vs the opponent. It is about what WG did to something I already had and had finished. Moving the goal post and taking it away was WRONG! End of story.

Although this is not a perfect analogy it is close enough and maybe you will finally see what I/we are talking about. Let's say your favorite ship in the game is Montana (it's mine so that is why we are using it LOL). You grind your butt off up the US BB tree and finally get it. Man, you love it and play it all the time for years. Then one day WG decides to change how much XP is needed to get T10 tech tree ships out of the blue. They raise Montana's 247,000 XP cost by 70% (+172,900) to 419,900. Now, you already ground out Montana years ago so surely WG will allow you to keep it despite the change right? Nope, they take it away and say you can have it back once you regrind in Iowa for another 172,900 XP. I am going out on a limb here but I don't believe you would be happy about that and most likely you would be pretty upset. I also don't think you would like other people saying "but everyone has to regrind Iowa no big deal none of us has Montana and an edge". 

So as said not a perfect analogy but close enough. Montana would = an elite Capt and regrinding Iowa would = regrinding the former elite Capt to get it back to elite status.

Wrong is wrong and what WG did to the player base with some aspects of the Capt rework was as wrong as it gets.

Please leave that kind of attitude at the door. It is uncalled for.

 

It is very called for, cause you people make no argument, you just whine in some circle-jive. The point you make is not hard to understand. You could have saved you a lot of writing there. I got that from the start. Ofc it feels unfair to have to do something again, that you felt you had finished. At first. But it's such a fallacy. It is the same perspective that drives players to rush their grinds up to T10, where they have no clue how to play, just for the nominal achievement of having reached the endgame, while the sad truth is that everything is relative in this game, that every advance you make is nullified by your opponent, cause of matchmaking.

You seem like an okay guy, so I'll hold my temper and let you in on a little secret: It is all temporary. Yes, that 19-point commander is now missing 1.2M CXP. Most people in my clan carry around a few M CXP of pocket money. Even if not, you grind CXP very fast. Within days up to few weeks that commander is back to full training. At that point you factually have overtaken the old system. You guys skip over this little detail: It now works on every other class, too. Every premium ship of a different class before the rework needed an extra 1.8M CXP for a full commander, now you get it for free. Every commander used on another ship of a different class is 1.8M CXP saved. With one extra ship used, the 21-pointer has saved you CXP.

And for those who are still not convinced and want to cling to their narrative of "WG cheated us":

I have 24 full commanders. I use them on 139 different ships. Many of them unique commanders. Those 24 commanders have cost me ~3M * 24 = 72M CXP.

Under the old system I would have needed 56 commanders to cover those 139 ships and their different skill needs. That would have cost me ~1.8M * 56 = 100.8MCXP

So the commander rework has saved me 100.8M - 72M = 28.8M CXP.

This covers the extra cost of a 21-pointer compared to an old 19-pointer for another 28.8M / 1.2M = 24 full commanders, and only if I was to use those 24 extra commanders on a single ship type each, which is a conservative assumption.

Feel free to argue any further, but please do it with math or don't expect a serious response.

[HMS_Kilinowski]

12 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Nope.

This is based off of how YOU value items in game. It is completely normal for others to have different valuations of WG offerings.

Your entire argument set seems to require everyone to adopt your valuation as their own. That's an unrealistic expectation.

Again, it's a management issue, your management issue. If you can't manage, okay I admit you get a lower value out of it. But not WG cheated you, you cheated yourself then. Read above post to maybe grasp why.

Edited November 15, 2023 by HMS_Kilinowski

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

Just now, HMS_Kilinowski said:

Again, it's a management issue, your management issue. If you can't manage, okay I admit you get a lower value out of it. But not WG cheated you, you cheated yourself then. Read above post to maybe grasp why.

Only if I accept your valuation of the WG offering...which I don't.

That's the disconnect.

This isn't about being cheated...this is about the value of the offering being diluted.

[HMS_Kilinowski]

8 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Only if I accept your valuation of the WG offering...which I don't.

That's the disconnect.

This isn't about being cheated...this is about the value of the offering being diluted.

Then don't accept it. You are entitled to your own mismanagement, which is imo a subjective issue and not a suitable forum topic. WG is well adviced to not care about one person feeling diluted or delusional. You can always make a topic and ask for management help if you're willing to take it. This boring off-topic bit has run its course for me.

[Asym]

25 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

Then don't accept it. You are entitled to your own mismanagement, which is imo a subjective issue and not a suitable forum topic. WG is well adviced to not care about one person feeling diluted or delusional. You can always make a topic and ask for management help if you're willing to take it. This boring off-topic bit has run its course for me.

We don't accept it because their decisions to de-evolve the game into a lesser F2P that has been monetarily weaponized into some variation of Pay-to-[add what you believe fits here] isn't a Stay or Leave choice or a Accept or Reject choice.  We see the outcome of all of those variations already with static populations and no real content growth....

You do realize that the entire game itself has "changed" over the past 7 or so years.   That in those changes, many of us don't "think we lost value (some of which we paid for in real money;) but,  in fact, lost "value" in the changes our host made to maximize revenue for themselves by de valuing what we use, purchased and in-game own. 

I.e. a small example:  19 to 21 point CPT's....  A lot of us had over thirty, 19 point CPT that we spent a lot of time grinding up for each TECH TREE ship we deemed necessary to compete in whatever mode we chose to participate in...  Thousands of hours.  Then, "poof !" we were starting all over yet again......no compensation, nothing but even more changes that were so obtuse, many simply left the game completely....  We stayed.

57 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

 

It is very called for, cause you people make no argument, you just whine in some circle-jive. The point you make is not hard to understand. You could have saved you a lot of writing there. I got that from the start. Ofc it feels unfair to have to do something again, that you felt you had finished. At first. But it's such a fallacy. It is the same perspective that drives players to rush their grinds up to T10, where they have no clue how to play, just for the nominal achievement of having reached the endgame, while the sad truth is that everything is relative in this game, that every advance you make is nullified by your opponent, cause of matchmaking.

You seem like an okay guy, so I'll hold my temper and let you in on a little secret: It is all temporary. Yes, that 19-point commander is now missing 1.2M CXP. Most people in my clan carry around a few M CXP of pocket money. Even if not, you grind CXP very fast. Within days up to few weeks that commander is back to full training. At that point you factually have overtaken the old system. You guys skip over this little detail: It now works on every other class, too. Every premium ship of a different class before the rework needed an extra 1.8M CXP for a full commander, now you get it for free. Every commander used on another ship of a different class is 1.8M CXP saved. With one extra ship used, the 21-pointer has saved you CXP.

And for those who are still not convinced and want to cling to their narrative of "WG cheated us":

I have 24 full commanders. I use them on 139 different ships. Many of them unique commanders. Those 24 commanders have cost me ~3M * 24 = 72M CXP.

Under the old system I would have needed 56 commanders to cover those 139 ships and their different skill needs. That would have cost me ~1.8M * 56 = 100.8MCXP

So the commander rework has saved me 100.8M - 72M = 28.8M CXP.

This covers the extra cost of a 21-pointer compared to an old 19-pointer for another 28.8M / 1.2M = 24 full commanders, and only if I was to use those 24 extra commanders on a single ship type each, which is a conservative assumption.

Feel free to argue any further, but please do it with math or don't expect a serious response.

For you and your play style, which is not my play style, this ^^^^ works for you.  And yes, I have stopped really even trying to grind anymore because I only play with one Nation Captain on various ships.  I do have 21 point CPT's in many of the TT ships I had 19 point CPT's in......but, that doesn't help feeling cheated out of all that effort which is now even more onerous....

You aren't wrong mate....  But, speak for yourself as well.  There are a great many of us whom come from other cultures where being cheated (perceived or real) carries a lot of weight.....  To the point, many have left the game completely and that, affects you directly....  No growth and games die or, in this case, stall into 6,000 player games that simply are there....

[HMS_Kilinowski]

11 minutes ago, Asym said:

You aren't wrong mate....  But, speak for yourself as well.  There are a great many of us whom come from other cultures where being cheated (perceived or real) carries a lot of weight.....  To the point, many have left the game completely and that, affects you directly....  No growth and games die or, in this case, stall into 6,000 player games that simply are there....

 

That is because you are not doing the math. You are stubbornly refusing to do the math. If you did, you'd see you are better off now. Talk about yourself, not about "a lot of us". How many 19 pointers did you have on which ships and which ships are you using them on now? If I can get 56 commanders worth out of 24 commanders, I'm pretty sure everybody can get 30 commanders worth out of 30 commanders. Prove me wrong by discussing your port.

[Justin_Simpleton]

1 hour ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

I have 24 full commanders. I use them on 139 different ships. Many of them unique commanders. Those 24 commanders have cost me ~3M * 24 = 72M CXP.

Under the old system I would have needed 56 commanders to cover those 139 ships and their different skill needs. That would have cost me ~1.8M * 56 = 100.8MCXP

So the commander rework has saved me 100.8M - 72M = 28.8M CXP.

 

37 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

That is because you are not doing the math. You are stubbornly refusing to do the math. If you did, you'd see you are better off now.

This math you are showing would have been real handy 6 months before the captain rework when MY math guided my decisions that resulted in coming in way short of the goal post (that were moved).

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 hour ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

 

That is because you are not doing the math. You are stubbornly refusing to do the math. If you did, you'd see you are better off now. Talk about yourself, not about "a lot of us". How many 19 pointers did you have on which ships and which ships are you using them on now? If I can get 56 commanders worth out of 24 commanders, I'm pretty sure everybody can get 30 commanders worth out of 30 commanders. Prove me wrong by discussing your port.

'Better off' is a value statement.

In a game like this, with no open market for anything...PRICE DOES NOT EQUAL VALUE.

The customer perception of value has no impact on the price of the good...and therefore anyone claiming that value is merely the quoted price of anything is promoting a flawed premise.

The captain investment I had prior to the change was superior value in even price terms to what was on offer after the change. This value was somewhat mitigated by being able to utilize the captain on multiple premiums. However, this presupposed that I played those premiums often enough to offset the lost value.

I had a newly minted 19 point commander on my Midway (favorite ship) when the change was announced...with a 17 point commander on Bismarck. I sunk all my free captain xP into getting the Midway captain up to 21 points post change.

That Midway captain also resides on my Georgia, my Marblehead, and my Hill...all of which I almost never play.

I was close to getting that second maxed out captain...currently, that German battleship captain is at 20 points, and also is my Agir, Graf Spee, and Immelman captain...these ships I at least play sometimes.

My personal value assessment is that WGs making the captain experience curve exponential and then extending it was a delay of 2-3 years of captain development on my account...which was compensated by being able to put these guys on premium ships.

Of course, the change also meant I am less likely to purchase special commanders, as I don't have the free captain experience I would need to boost those to being useful...which I would have had more of now if the switch had not been made then.

Meaning the opportunity cost of the switch has negative valuation to me as well.

 

[HogHammer]

Some comments here are getting a little too personal, folks.  I've already had to do several edits to prevent handing out warnings.  

FYI, handing out warnings is much easier than writing direct messages where compliance is requested.

So please, make a better attempt to keep it civil among forum members.

Thanks!

[AdmiralThunder]

5 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

 

It is very called for, cause you people make no argument, you just whine in some circle-jive. The point you make is not hard to understand. You could have saved you a lot of writing there. I got that from the start. Ofc it feels unfair to have to do something again, that you felt you had finished. At first. But it's such a fallacy. It is the same perspective that drives players to rush their grinds up to T10, where they have no clue how to play, just for the nominal achievement of having reached the endgame, while the sad truth is that everything is relative in this game, that every advance you make is nullified by your opponent, cause of matchmaking.

You seem like an okay guy, so I'll hold my temper and let you in on a little secret: It is all temporary. Yes, that 19-point commander is now missing 1.2M CXP. Most people in my clan carry around a few M CXP of pocket money. Even if not, you grind CXP very fast. Within days up to few weeks that commander is back to full training. At that point you factually have overtaken the old system. You guys skip over this little detail: It now works on every other class, too. Every premium ship of a different class before the rework needed an extra 1.8M CXP for a full commander, now you get it for free. Every commander used on another ship of a different class is 1.8M CXP saved. With one extra ship used, the 21-pointer has saved you CXP.

And for those who are still not convinced and want to cling to their narrative of "WG cheated us":

I have 24 full commanders. I use them on 139 different ships. Many of them unique commanders. Those 24 commanders have cost me ~3M * 24 = 72M CXP.

Under the old system I would have needed 56 commanders to cover those 139 ships and their different skill needs. That would have cost me ~1.8M * 56 = 100.8MCXP

So the commander rework has saved me 100.8M - 72M = 28.8M CXP.

This covers the extra cost of a 21-pointer compared to an old 19-pointer for another 28.8M / 1.2M = 24 full commanders, and only if I was to use those 24 extra commanders on a single ship type each, which is a conservative assumption.

Feel free to argue any further, but please do it with math or don't expect a serious response.

No, it wasn't called for neither is the rudeness you start this post with. 

Your math about needing fewer Capt's now than before the rework only works for Premium ships. If you are like me with every tech tree nation and line done in the game, and keeping at a minimum T5-T10 in each (not to mention we now have SuperShips that need a Capt of its own), then you need Capt's for them. Those 54 19pt Capt's I had all manned T10, T9, and a few T8 and T7 tech tree ships. So I DID lose out. Yeah, I can use one Capt on multiple Premiums now with different skills for ship type but it doesn't address what we lost for our Tech Tree Capt's. I play tech tree ships a LOT.

Ok, so you want math? Here you go...

• Prior to the Capt Skill rework I had 54 Elite Capt's that earned me ECXP at a rate of 100%.
• Post Capt Skill rework I had 0 Elite Capt's and the former elite ones now only earned me ECXP at a rate of 5%.
• Results: -54 Elite Capt's and -95% ECXP earning capacity. (not my choice and done by WG)

Here is some more...

• Prior to the Capt Skill rework an "Elite" Capt was 19pts and cost 1,708,000 CXP to get from 0-19.
• Post Capt Skill rework and "Elite" Capt is 21 Pts and costs 2,908.000 CXP to get from 0-21.
• Results: +1,200,000 CXP required to reach "Elite" status which is +70.25% of the grind to get from 0-19 pts.

So the math shows I lost something very real through no fault of my own and that I will have to do another 70% grind on those 54 Capt's just to get them back to where they were before WG took their elite status away that I had already earned.  Also, 21pts now gets you the same value skill and performance wise that 19 used to get. So Capt skill points were devalued about 10% overall with 2 extra being added to get the same performance/value while WG increased the grind to get an elite Capt by 70%.

WG's and your math doesn't add up. 😎

I am done with this. You won't change your stance and neither will I so just done with it. If you think you lost nothing in the rework and it is all good for you great. I don't agree and see what WG took from us. It is what it is and they can do whatever they want with their game. That doesn't mean I have to like it or say it is good when it isn't. SOME things in the rework were good but they don't offset the bad that happened at the same time for me. YMMV.

Edited November 15, 2023 by AdmiralThunder

[Asym]

1 hour ago, AdmiralThunder said:

No, it wasn't called for neither is the rudeness you start this post with. 

et al....

I am done with this. You won't change your stance and neither will I so just done with it. If you think you lost nothing in the rework and it is all good for you great. I don't agree and see what WG took from us. It is what it is and they can do whatever they want with their game. That doesn't mean I have to like it or say it is good when it isn't. SOME things in the rework were good but they don't offset the bad that happened at the same time for me. YMMV.

And, t-t-t-t-t-hat's al Folks ! 

Well said.

 

[Ensign Cthulhu]

5 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

but it doesn't address what we lost for our Tech Tree Capt's. I play tech tree ships a LOT.

Don't try to tell me you of all people are disadvantaged by not having a 21 pointer for co-op. 

Most of the tech-tree ships I play in co-op don't have a 21 pointer yet. Most of them never will. I play them anyway.

You can milk the silver lining for all it's worth, or you can spend forever scowling at the cloud. Your choice. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Ensign Cthulhu